Italian surrender (Full Version)

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Professor Chaos -> Italian surrender (6/13/2021 12:10:09 AM)

I am playing my first game as Allies vs AI (1942 scenario), and am surprised at how the game handles the surrender of Italy. I was playing very conventionally; landing on Sicily and then Taranto in mid-1943.

The mechanic of all of Italy turning Allied upon surrender seems weird. But this was compounded by the behavior of the AI. The remaining German units in the south didn't really do anything or try to establish a defensive line in mid Italy. Nor did the AI move any units to the Italian borders. So without any resistance, there is nothing to stop the Allies from waltzing up into Bavaria and ending the game.

I realize that it must be hard to figure out how to handle surrender in all cases, but instantly turning all of Italy into Allied territory presents the AI from railing in units to defend even if it was inclined.

Italy surrendering to an invasion from the south in 1943 is not exactly an obscure use case, so it seems strange that this is something the AI can't handle.



sillyflower -> RE: Italian surrender (6/13/2021 5:49:49 PM)

I know nothing about computers, though I know that the more complex the game, the weaker the AI' performance. AI's can win chess but not large strategy games, though the AI here is generally good.

My advice - try PvP or give the AI a good boost



Professor Chaos -> RE: Italian surrender (6/13/2021 11:40:11 PM)

At least if Italian-controlled hexes turned to German-occupied instead of Allied-occupied upon Italy's surrender, Germany could rail in reinforcements right away. And German units already in Italy wouldn't be instantly cut off and out of supply.

Plus, the Allies wouldn't be able to just drop off units at the ports in Genoa and Venice, nor immediately rail up to the German border.



Nirosi -> RE: Italian surrender (6/14/2021 12:22:57 AM)

Hi,

It would require some troops, but if Italy surrenders by negotiation (which it usually does) the Axis players should get a notification that Italy is ready to negotiate. So the Axis has one last turn either to retake some cities and rescind the offer, or send troops (if not already there) to occupy important places like the ports. If looking at keeping everything North of Rome (and Rome), 7 divisions (by memory) can occupy the ports (and then can take inland cities and come back to the ports). Plus one more division per whatever port Italy still controls outside Italy (such as Albania). Ideally, Germany should have troops there already, like historical to be ready just in case. If not, there would be no reason for the hexes to convert to Germany if there are no soldiers around to take them.



Professor Chaos -> RE: Italian surrender (6/14/2021 6:30:24 AM)

Maybe if the AI could figure that out, sure....

But right now this seems kind of game-breaking for a game against the AI. I can't be the first player against the AI to invade Italy in 1943!



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Italian surrender (6/14/2021 12:52:31 PM)

There is a double edged sword here. If the surrender rule isn't this way Norway stayed Allied controlled and the Germans need to walk up to take the entire country. Which let's the Allies easily occupy it. Although technically it would be more historical. Players complained that they had to do this and petitioned for countries just to change hands.

The A.I. should have units guarding the ports.



stjeand -> RE: Italian surrender (6/14/2021 12:59:51 PM)

Al is there any way to differentiate between in country and out of country?

I understand that when Italy surrenders their country becomes UK...
BUT Italian hexes in Russia become UK...that can cripple the Axis if the Italians took some key rail lines by accident.
It happens a lot.

You basically have to lead the the Germans and have the Italians behind. And then when partisans show up and the Italian garrison units are cleaning them up they take over the hexes.



Nirosi -> RE: Italian surrender (6/14/2021 1:10:28 PM)

quote:

BUT Italian hexes in Russia become UK...that can cripple the Axis if the Italians took some key rail lines by accident.
It happens a lot.


+1

Yes if "partial control" like that (in a not yet conquered country) could stay on the same side, it would be nice...



ncc1701e -> RE: Italian surrender (6/14/2021 5:06:14 PM)

No wonder why I don't use Italy in USSR. [;)]



Professor Chaos -> RE: Italian surrender (6/14/2021 7:20:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

There is a double edged sword here. If the surrender rule isn't this way Norway stayed Allied controlled and the Germans need to walk up to take the entire country. Which let's the Allies easily occupy it. Although technically it would be more historical. Players complained that they had to do this and petitioned for countries just to change hands.

The A.I. should have units guarding the ports.


Hi Alvaro, thanks for the reply. I think the AI was garrisoning the northern Italian ports or cities, but with Italians which of course disappeared upon surrender.

I appreciate the general problem with surrenders but perhaps Italy should be a special case. I think Strategic Command had a script that forms the puppet Italian RSI when Italy surrenders.



Professor Chaos -> RE: Italian surrender (6/15/2021 4:11:17 AM)

Hmmm... I decided not to exploit the AI and refrained from moving units north in Italy.

But it's been six or seven turns after Italy surrendered, and the Axis AI hasn't moved a single unit into Italy or up to Italy's borders. That seems seriously wrong...



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Italian surrender (6/15/2021 2:52:23 PM)

That is not a bad idea Professor. Create an Italian puppet state. Let me think about this.



Professor Chaos -> RE: Italian surrender (8/16/2021 3:54:32 AM)

Alvaro, thanks for changing the rules so that Italian hexes now become German-owned upon Italy's surrender. The AI handles Italy much better now.

I wonder if a similar rule should be in place for Hungary, to follow historical events?



boldairade -> RE: Italian surrender (8/20/2021 9:58:50 AM)

the italian thing kind of bugs me too.

i was in a MP game where italy had been wildly successful, held egypt, much of africa, had landed in the eastern black sea, was pressuring rostov to help germany, and also had significant forces helping out near baku.

allied landings drove out the garrison in taranto, took an ungarissoned town in sicily(my bad). I had a ton of forces, german and italian, in italy, and immediatly sealed off the landings but...

Italy immediately capitulated.

i understand it's hard to anticipate this stuff. but it left such a bad taste in my mouth i stopped playing for awhile.



YueJin -> RE: Italian surrender (8/20/2021 11:09:09 AM)

I mean the game does give you a warning as soon as Tripoli falls that Italy is going to surrender. I guess it's possible to miss it but surely it's not too tricky to garrison Taranto/Naples with a German corps.

In reality, Mussolini was deposed, the armistice concluded and Italian divisions being moved in preparation to fight the Germans before the Allies even landed on mainland Italy, so the Axis probably have it pretty good in the game as long as you don't give up morale/production cities easily.



boldairade -> RE: Italian surrender (8/22/2021 9:46:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: YueJin

I mean the game does give you a warning as soon as Tripoli falls that Italy is going to surrender. I guess it's possible to miss it but surely it's not too tricky to garrison Taranto/Naples with a German corps.

In reality, Mussolini was deposed, the armistice concluded and Italian divisions being moved in preparation to fight the Germans before the Allies even landed on mainland Italy, so the Axis probably have it pretty good in the game as long as you don't give up morale/production cities easily.



i understand what you are saying about the conditions vs historical outcome. but i think you are missing my point. which is, italy was war weary and ready to lay down their arms in large part due to a complete lack of success. my game was not historical in that respect.



stjeand -> RE: Italian surrender (8/22/2021 11:17:11 AM)

I suspect their might be a way that with Italian success they get less war weary...

For example if they hold a few other locations Tripoli does not have its normal effect.

BUT does that mean Italy was successful or did the Germans let them have those locations?
That would be tough to calculate but I think if possible for each capitol Italy held maybe 1 or 2 points gets required to make them surrender.

I do dislike that with one quick drop they surrender.

Sadly I think I did this to you in our game.
Sorry sir but you did empty out all of Italy for the most part so an invasion was inevitable.

Should Italy have surrendered?

Maybe the population was war weary...not the government.



boldairade -> RE: Italian surrender (8/22/2021 1:07:20 PM)

it was a game winning move, so i don't blame you at all for making it.

that said, italy was not emptied out. i make this differentiation because it's important to my original point. I had 3 or 4 german corps in italy at the time,along with italian units and immediately moved to seal off you landings. So the rest of italy was not in any real distress.

again, much of this is due to me being a pretty informal player who doesn't minmax and pay attention to every detail. that doesn't make it any less frustrating though. which i guess was what i was agreeing with on this post to begin with.



stjeand -> RE: Italian surrender (8/22/2021 3:37:49 PM)

Well to be honest...I was a horrible player that game.
I left SO many openings the game was pretty much over for me. Needed a hail Mary which this was in knowing that the Italians have no stomach for a long war.


Most people now...have Tripoli guarded by a full German corps for this reason alone...yet that is not always enough.


With full knowledge that Italy is a huge weak point the Germans have to play very cautiously when the US finally join for this reason alone. So much amphibious capacity from all directions.



boldairade -> RE: Italian surrender (8/22/2021 7:29:57 PM)

again, it really isn't about who played better.

it's about how frustrating it is when a powerful italy capitulates when it's the 3rd most powerful nation in the game at that point in time.



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