sIG33 No indirect fire? (Full Version)

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11Bravo -> sIG33 No indirect fire? (7/13/2001 7:19:00 AM)

Playing MCNA and came across the sIG33. Encylopedia says its a SPA which was often used in a direct fire role. Game doesn't let me choose to use its indirect fire capability. Is this by design, or is it an OOB bug? By the way, what does sIG mean? :confused:



Tombstone -> (7/13/2001 7:23:00 AM)

I think its by design. It's always been that way in all the SP games. sIG stands for "Schwere Infanterie Gewehr" I think. Meaning heavy infantry gun. Tomo



Drex -> (7/13/2001 7:28:00 AM)

Doesn't one of the SPWAW movie clips show a Sig33 moving through city streets in combat? Hardly an indirect weapon.



Possum -> (7/13/2001 7:31:00 AM)

Hello 1Bravo The sIG 33 was designed for direct fire only, as it was simply a self propelled infantry gun. (the version on the Pz I chassis that is, there also exists a towed veron with the same name.) Tombstone, the translation is spot on.



11Bravo -> (7/13/2001 8:02:00 AM)

Thanks. I'll move them up behind my infantry and start plinking away.



tracer -> (7/13/2001 8:13:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Tombstone: It's always been that way in all the SP games. Tomo
Not so. Back in SPWAW 4.? I had sIG's (self-propelled and regular) show up on my indirect fire menu; I remember their response time was slower than standard artillery though. Its possible this was scenario specific, or maybe due to OOB's I downloaded.



Warrior -> (7/13/2001 8:33:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by tracer: Not so. Back in SPWAW 4.? I had sIG's (self-propelled and regular) show up on my indirect fire menu; I remember their response time was slower than standard artillery though. Its possible this was scenario specific, or maybe due to OOB's I downloaded.
There are a number of different SiG's.



Del -> (7/13/2001 8:46:00 AM)

Infantry guns could use indirect fire. Not very good at it because it was not their primary function. They were made for direct fire support. IMO, the casualties caused by a 150mm HE round in direct fire is way under done.



tracer -> (7/13/2001 8:51:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior: There are a number of different SiG's.
Understood. I remember after seeing them on the bombard menu in that scenario I bought some for the core force in my next campaign, thinking 'hey, cheap arty'...no dice. Looks like they have to be designated as 'indirect fire capable' by the scenario designer since the off-the-shelf IGs only fire direct.



tracer -> (7/13/2001 8:56:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Del: Infantry guns could use indirect fire. Not very good at it because it was not their primary function. They were made for direct fire support. IMO, the casualties caused by a 150mm HE round in direct fire is way under done.
They do cause alot of suppression though, and you get collateral damage with them too (kills in adjacent hexes). I wonder how they do against infantry 'in the open' with the new combat model...should be devestating.



gators -> (7/13/2001 9:03:00 AM)

The Sig was not an SPA. It was like another poster said an infantry gun mounted on an obselete tank chassis. It had very little elevation so it couldn't have been used in an indirect fire role.



Bing -> (7/13/2001 9:06:00 AM)

The standard weapons encyclopaedia I have verfies the sIG33 portrayed in the game was direct fire only - gets confusing because apparently there was more than one model, though I can't provide a lot of detail on this. Appears the weapon has been modelled correctly, from all I can find out. Bing



monsternav -> (7/13/2001 9:17:00 AM)

Relevant to nothing really, but check the sIG33 out closely. Gerry just chopped the top off a PzI and plunked the standard sIG33 down onto the chassis, wheels, trailing arms and all, and put a flimsy little gun shield around it. Brave men in those things.



headhunter -> (7/13/2001 9:19:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Tombstone: I think its by design. It's always been that way in all the SP games. sIG stands for "Schwere Infanterie Gewehr" I think. Meaning heavy infantry gun. Tomo
Allmost correct: sIG stands for "schweres Infanterie Geschütz. ("Gewehr" means rifle.)



Warrior -> (7/13/2001 9:29:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by tracer: They do cause alot of suppression though, and you get collateral damage with them too (kills in adjacent hexes). I wonder how they do against infantry 'in the open' with the new combat model...should be devestating.
Funny you should ask! I just had one firing at a halftrack and the infantry squad in the hex behind it took severe casualties and retreated even further away. [ July 12, 2001: Message edited by: Warrior ]



tracer -> (7/13/2001 9:38:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by monsternav: Relevant to nothing really, but check the sIG33 out closely. Gerry just chopped the top off a PzI and plunked the standard sIG33 down onto the chassis, wheels, trailing arms and all, and put a flimsy little gun shield around it. Brave men in those things.
Goes to show, necessity's the mother of invention; kinda like when the Czech 35 and 38t's were obsolete and they needed a heavy AT vehicle so they used the chassis for Panzerjagers and Marders.



Randy -> (7/13/2001 12:45:00 PM)

In a way, couldn't be considered as an early version of a Stug? Semper Fi Randy



Gordon_freeman -> (7/13/2001 3:00:00 PM)

Dear all, first of all the sIG is the abriviation for "schweres Infantrie Gechütz", not Gewehr. but that is cause in English you just use gun for everything, we are a little bit more into details.... Anyhow, the sIG 33 was indeed a Panzer I chasis with additional shield plates (it was very high). The Gun was brought on top of the tank and then was self propelled. But the crew was also able to bring the gun down again and use it as a simple gun. The same thing applies to the SdKfz. 4, the halftrach with the 2 cm AA gun. A trained crew could bring the gun up or down in about 40 seconds (I speak of being fire ready!), but this just as a side information. Maybe we should ask the Matrix team to allow this in SP:WAW, would be intersting...(joking). Now to the inderect fire abilities: I was wwhining in one of my firsdt postings that these infantry guns in general could'nt use inderect fire and Paul answered: Yes, they were able but it was'nt their main function. On the otherhand they were (the crews) not really trained for inderect fire missions (we still could argue about thhat, Paul) but he then said as well (and that I agree): and it will shift the advantage because the effect would be that u get cheap artillery and it would fire to well (in terms of aiming). I agree with that. But I also have to admit that I secretly changed a few guns in the OoB editor (like the french/polish 75 mm Schneider gun, it was used as inderect fire support, AT gun and I Gun). At the moment I play a campaign as a German and the polish are using these guns quiet well and reallistic, appart from me getting suppressed I feel good and that it was the right solution. I also stated that the mighty 88 was also used as artillery.... but that is another story.



Greg McCarty -> (7/13/2001 3:34:00 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by George aka 2f: [QB]Dear all, .... Now to the inderect fire abilities: I was wwhining in one of my firsdt postings that these infantry guns in general could'nt use inderect fire and Paul answered: Yes, they were able but it was'nt their main function. On the otherhand they were (the crews) not really trained for inderect fire missions (we still could argue about thhat, Paul) but he then said as well (and that I agree): and it will shift the advantage because the effect would be that u get cheap artillery and it would fire to well (in terms of aiming). I agree with that. ..... -------------------------------------------- I have a number of photos of this little devil in action. They all show the gun being used in a direct fire role. One in particular is in a city, and in rather close quarters with the enemy. I imagine these could be quite effective as long as AT weapons were not in the area.



Mai Thai -> (7/13/2001 3:42:00 PM)

The sIG33, known as the Sturmpanzer I Bison , mounted a 150mm sIG 33 L/11.4 heavy infantry gun and was operated by 4 men. Was build on PzKpfw I Ausf B chassis and the idea behind this vehicle was to provide infantry with *direct* and *mobile* fire support unit. It was also the first self propelled gun produced. sIG stands for "schwere Infanterie Geschütz" meaning "heavy infantry gun" More info: there was others versions called 150mm sIG33 L/11 SdKfz 138/1 Bison Ausf. M, that was build over a PzKpfw 38(t) chassis, and one called sIG33 on PzKpfw 38(t) Ausf. H, the first having mounted the gun in the rear and the latter having the gun mounted on the front of the chassis. The successor were the 15cm sIG33 Ausf. PzKpfw II (Bison II) and the Sturmpanzer IV Brummbär (grizzly bear) assault howitzer, based on the PzKpfw IV chassis. bye [ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: Mai Thai ] [ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: Mai Thai ]



AmmoSgt -> (7/13/2001 6:38:00 PM)

Actually several SP infantry support type weapons have indirect fire capability and are not modeled as indirect fire in the game .. among US units with that problem are the M-8 Scott, the Amtrac's with the 75mm . A couple of the Halftrack SP Hows (T-30 GMC's ect) have come in both indirect and seperate direct fire models in the game ... M-16 Quad 50's have been used in Indirect fire mode as described in various web pages I have posted on different threads .... infact most heavy Machineguns in WW1 had special sites for high angle fire to allow them to use plunging fire against trenches , and some early war systems in WW2 were designed with this ability , not knowing that WW2 would be so different , making the doctrine somewhat Obsolete for MG's ... Most the "infantry guns" are in fact just old WW1 field artilery that didn't have a capacity for high angle of fire due to the mount , which was due to the doctrine , which was based on the ability of the sights and manual computations to acxhieve usable accuracy back at the turn of the century ... This proabaly most noticeable in Naval Guns and the increase in ranges after 1930 era refits as the angles that they could elevate were increased in refits on their main turrets .. As steel quality and the ability to compute variables need for accurate long range indirect fire improved, the concept of artillery changed and complicated the mounts .. IIRC the French 75mm main claim to fame, is that it was among the first, if not the first, to have a recoil system, that allowed the gun to fire without completely relaying the Gun between shots ... Given the multiple versions of such Arty systems as the T-30 GMC, I was wondering if there might be some game engine limit to modeling an indirect gun having both aproximately correct accuracy in the indirect fire role, and then still maintaining a reasonable modeling of accuracy in direct fire ? Towed Guns of many nations such as the British 25 pdr's have direct fire ammo ( some version of AP or HEAT) and yet manage indirect fire with some accuracy ...and have the "inteligence " in the game to only fire HE type ammo indirect ...so i suspect it is more a game designer preference thing ... maybe somebody can answer this that has inside knowledge of some of the choices in modeling units in the game .. the M4 Sherman CS versions and some of the Brit CS tanks, I do believe, had this ability as well ...any enlightenment would be apreciated... The Pricing for the identical gun and vehicle combo on such units as the T-30 GMC is quite different between direct fire and indirect fire versions ..with the indirect fire version being much much higher.. I assume this is part of the effort to restrict and handicap the Impact of Artillery in this game ... such as not allowing the German 88mm to fire indirect , which I doubt there is little controversy about it's actual ability to do so in reality . [ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]



rcread -> (7/14/2001 8:00:00 PM)

Many, mant weapons were capable of indirect fire that aren't given that ability in the game. Even tanks can, and I have read accounts of US tanks firing indirect in Korea. Modern military MG doctrine inludes the use of MGs on SF (sustained fire) mounts for indirect fire. The limitations with high-velocity weapons (MGs, tanks, and 88s) are in range - they are severally restricted in their MINIMUM range, by the flat plane of their trajectories. But 88s WERE used as indirect artillery, as were 75mm AT guns. The Russian 76mm AT guns were actually artillery pieces, designed for indirect fire, but dual-purpose. Even the early StuGs retained their indirect fire sights, and since they were crewed by artillerymen, they certainly knew how to use them. But, they were far more effective firing direct, and German doctrine did not allow the artillery commander to gain control of them except in extraordinary circumstances. As to the sIGs, the ground-mount versions definately were indirect capable, and since the SP versions were simply the same gun, in its entirety, plopped onto a tracked chassis, they were too. However, since these guns were controlled by the infantry, and since their ammo supply was usually very limited, they were generally used direct; indirect artillery burns up ammunition at such a fantastic rate that the infantry supply system wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand. Besides, used indirect, a sIG could usually hit the target by the third or fourth round - a statistical impossibility with indirect fire. So, they were rarely used indirect, and the SP versions were intended to protect the crews from small arms fire so they could do their jobs better, not differently.



AmmoSgt -> (7/15/2001 1:52:00 AM)

Tanks lack both indrect fire sighting/ploting equipment and typically crew training .. in Korea you will see they had to fire from prepared ramps and were given firing settings from special teams that had to convert the gun balistics for weapons not normally used for indirect fire and had no firing tables ...this was only done because tanks were of limited use in their typical usage as maneuver elements ..and they didn't have much else to do ..chalk it up to yankee ingenuity .. the Units I mentioned are ones that had sight/ploting gear and precalculated firing tables only requiring a mission and a firing point and estabishing communication with FDC elements .. but even this required pulling them off any DS missions and took some planing and cordination and had to use elements not otherwise organic to units assigned by TO&E to DS missions



tracer -> (7/15/2001 3:58:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior: Funny you should ask! I just had one firing at a halftrack and the infantry squad in the hex behind it took severe casualties and retreated even further away. [ July 12, 2001: Message edited by: Warrior ]
After you posted this I decided to see for myself; though it was late I whipped up a generated battle (forgot how much fun they can be). 6/41, German defend vs Soviets, visibility 16, had about 1000pts to spend. First thing I had to do was disable rarity; guess there weren't that many 150mm IG's and I couldn't get more than a pair with rarity on and I wanted 4...bought a couple platoons of FJ, and MG's, a couple 88's, 1/2 dozen 28mm FJ ATG, 4 75mm howtz's and a few snipers. Only motorized unit was 3 MMG motorcycles for recon...no armor at all. Besides the IGs, 88s and MGs (and a couple of the 28mm ATGs)the rest of my force could have been sitting there drinking schnapps for all it mattered. Every time an IG fired you'd see 3-6 casualty report boxes pop up as units around the target got chewed up too. Units I couldn't even see were popping smoke and retreating...even had a few disperse after taking 7-8 casualties on first contact. As usual the AI concentrated almost all the return fire at the 88s and IGs, but since they were entrenched the only loss was 1 crewman from an abandoned IG, and even they recovered and remanned the gun a couple turns later. Wound up with a decisive victory after 6 or 7 turns...guess that answered my question of how effective IGs are with the new combat model :eek: One side note: I'd never seen a T-27 before, but the AI chose a bunch for its force...maybe because I had no armor?



sinner -> (7/15/2001 7:47:00 AM)

What about the Infantry 75mm gun? (German) It cames with the Motorized Infantry companies. Can you use it as an indirect gun? If yes, perfect. If no, why? And, how can I make it an indirect fire gun? (what part of the OOB needs to be edited? Thank youin advance.



Mai Thai -> (7/16/2001 8:26:00 PM)

To Sinner from the Prairy: sorry but the 75mm inf. gun (German)that comes with the Motorized Infantry companies is for direct fire only, so you can't use it for indirect fire. But you can upgrade it to the 75mm Howitzer that can also be used for indirect fire. Bye



Paul Vebber -> (7/16/2001 9:36:00 PM)

Any unit classed Howitzer (should really be "on board arty" or mortar (of various types) can fire indirect (as can some vehicles). We limited the "indirect fire" capability to those artillery types that were used for "spotter corrected fire" on a routine basis. The players Borg like knowledge of exactlywhere individual enemy units are makes it too easy to abuse in other cases. In Combat Leader with full fog of war this will be more dificult to ascertain, and we divide units into those capable of "indirect fire" (though minimum range makes this tactically dificult) and "call for fire" capabable. So you will be able to use MGs to fire indirectly if you really want, but its affect will be more area denial (ihibiting movement) than casuing siginificant casualties and suppression - since you are "shooting in the blind"



RockinHarry -> (7/18/2001 2:39:00 AM)

Hey..try using the "Sig33 on PzI" as bunker busters at ranges of 3-5 and tell what you notice!? (..bunkers without PAK of course :D) ...against entrenched infantry they do almost nothing. But once they leave their entrenchments... :eek: :D _______ Harry



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