Japs in 6.1 ? (Full Version)

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DELTA32 -> Japs in 6.1 ? (7/13/2001 4:07:00 PM)

The Jap troops in 6.1 seem to break quickly, take heavy suppression, and recover from suppression with great difficulty. This doesn't seem QUITE correct as my readings of WW2 Japanese Army/Marines were that they were quite tenacious. Can someone enlighten me here or do the Japs in 6.1 break too easily, and recover with great difficulty indicative of their WW2 performance ? Delta 3-2



Wild Bill -> (7/13/2001 4:09:00 PM)

I was playing a new Japanese scenario that I am designing on the Japanese invasion of Singapore, and noticed the same thing, Delta. Your mentioning it made me think that maybe there is something different. I'm going to test it some more.



DELTA32 -> (7/13/2001 4:17:00 PM)

WB....your speed at a reply is unreal ! Anyway FYI I'm playing a PBEM and the scenario is "Flying Chindits". Also, one question here on "Chindits". In the MALEME scenario the German gliders land and discharge their troops...and the gliders remain visible, burning and just adding to the carnage of the battlefield. However, in Chindits the gliders are not on the battlefield....and just don't appear after landing ? Bug ? What do you think WB ? I think it would be nice to see them laying there strewn about as in MALEME...or is this a designer error ? Delta 3-2 [ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: DELTA3-2 ]



thewood11 -> (7/13/2001 5:25:00 PM)

Please keep in mind that Japanese-Americans view the term "Japs" as offensive and derogutory. This is directly related to enforced interment of American citizens of Japanese descent in the US, as well as the racial propaganda used by the US during the war. WHile some people may think this is nitpicking, if your grandfather had his entire business seized by the US government and his entire family relocated to the middle of nowhere by armed guards for no other reason than looking like a "Jap", you would understand.



tracer -> (7/13/2001 6:29:00 PM)

Point taken thewood. I'm sure 99% of the time that word is used in this forum its only intended to be an abbreviation; perhaps JPN would be a better choice since the other certainly sounds deflamatory.



Panzer Capta -> (7/13/2001 7:52:00 PM)

I have also notice a SIGNIFICANT loss of tenacity in all scenerios involving JPN since the upgrades. This weekend i will revisit the Tarawa scenerio for the first time since uprading. I found this beach assault extremely difficult before the uprades.......we will see.



Mark Ezra -> (7/13/2001 8:21:00 PM)

It's an excellent idea to use a phrase other than "Jap". I expect it is used here more often because of spelling. Some times I get lucky and CAN spell Japanese...sometimes NOT. While usuage of the phrase may be innocent enough, it is still not right. My family lived on the West Coast during the War and watched the internment of their neighbors. I don't know what my Dad and Mom actually thought but I do know they did nothing. Racial hate of the Japanese was very evident in US war propaganda of the time. This was not so of German or Italians. As a forum we avoid the use of many common slang terms for the various combatants. Let's extend it to the Japanese. IJA-IJN works for me.



Grimm -> (7/13/2001 11:30:00 PM)

Somebody should check this out. A friend of mine and I played a series of Marine/IJA PBEM games using v5.X and that is not how the Japanese forces acted under that version. I always played as the Japanese and I found them to be difficult to supress, easy to rally and just all around difficult to take out. The battles we fought were always very closely fought and bloody - very "realistic".



Tombstone -> (7/14/2001 1:46:00 AM)

I think Jap isn't quite as offensive considering the strong ties to the US military that is represented on the forum. Especially veterans. I'm Japanese, and when you're talking about WW2 we are the 'Japs'. Then again, to me it seems like a tame slurr somehow and I may be off base. Anytime I've ever heard 'Jap' said with malicious intent toward myself I've only really been upset by the persons sentiment, not the word or its historical connotation. It feels like calling a white guy 'whitey' or 'honkey' or something... Tomo



Nikademus -> (7/14/2001 2:16:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Tombstone: I think Jap isn't quite as offensive considering the strong ties to the US military that is represented on the forum. Especially veterans. I'm Japanese, and when you're talking about WW2 we are the 'Japs'. Then again, to me it seems like a tame slurr somehow and I may be off base. Anytime I've ever heard 'Jap' said with malicious intent toward myself I've only really been upset by the persons sentiment, not the word or its historical connotation. It feels like calling a white guy 'whitey' or 'honkey' or something... Tomo
On the boards that i moderate, the term "Jap" is often used because it is a convienient abreviation, similar to reffering to members of the Commonwealth as "Brits" or "Aussies" etc etc. Though i can understand the sensitivity of any Japanese or Japanese-Americans here on the board. Terms i've warned users against using that are of a clearly derogatory nature Limey Frog Nip Kraut "Yanks" is a marginal term since it can be used in both a complimentary and degrogatory mode but then again so can "Jap" i suppose. [ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: Nikademus ]



Wild Bill -> (7/14/2001 2:19:00 AM)

I'm sure the Japanese had an equally so-called derogatory name for US troops. I just don't know what it is. To be politically correct, however, I agree that we should avoid using "Jap" on the forum. That is not a censure of anyone here, it is something I have done also. Now, I'm off to test this today.. I do know that up until version 5.7 the Nipponese were in good shape. Could be 6.0-6.1 has messed it up. If any of you are playing Japanese scenarios, please report your results here. That would help a lot. Japanse normally should be resilient...even if they break, they should recover quickly...no retreat either. Standing by...I'll report in later Wild Bill =========



Wild Bill -> (7/14/2001 2:21:00 AM)

My pleasure Delta. I ain't always that fast :eek: Checking now...Wild Bill



Nikademus -> (7/14/2001 2:33:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: I'm sure the Japanese had an equally so-called derogatory name for US troops. I just don't know what it is. To be politically correct, however, I agree that we should avoid using "Jap" on the forum. That is not a censure of anyone here, it is something I have done also. Now, I'm off to test this today.. I do know that up until version 5.7 the Nipponese were in good shape. Could be 6.0-6.1 has messed it up. If any of you are playing Japanese scenarios, please report your results here. That would help a lot. Japanse normally should be resilient...even if they break, they should recover quickly...no retreat either. Standing by...I'll report in later Wild Bill =========
Do the larger sizes of the Japanese squads contribute to their tendancy to take casualties quickly?



TheChin -> (7/14/2001 3:08:00 AM)

I'm playing long campaign as Japanese and my troops seem pretty darn resilient. I was getting pounded by Sov 203mm and my troops were rallying very nicely. I was taking HEAVY casualties though. Of course I was giving as good as I got with some 150mm fire and the Sovs were running like crazy. It's always heartwarming to see all the Sov Rifle retreating messages scrolling up a the end of a turn. Not to mention the popcorn like smoke grenades blossoming all over. P.S. I have to admit though, since the Japanese in 39 don't have very much to upgrade, I have switched virtually all my infantry to marines.



DELTA32 -> (7/14/2001 6:03:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by thewood11: [QB]Please keep in mind that Japanese-Americans view the term "Japs" as offensive and derogutory. This is directly related to enforced interment of American citizens of Japanese descent in the US, as well as the racial propaganda used by the US during the war. QB]
Well I KNEW some politically correct WHINER would complain that I used the term JAP ! Guess what ? There were thousands of AMERICANS who families were disrupted by the surprise JAPANESE attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 DEC 41. As I'm not politically correct I really don't care that you or anyone else is offended by my use or anyone else's use of the reference JAP ! Why don't you tell that to the Hundreds of thousands of descendents of Americans lost in the Pacific War ! God ! People like you want to may me vomit ! Delta 3-2



DELTA32 -> (7/14/2001 6:09:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by DELTA3-2: Well I KNEW some politically correct WHINER would complain that I used the term JAP ! Guess what ? There were thousands of AMERICANS who families were disrupted by the surprise JAPANESE attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 DEC 41. As I'm not politically correct I really don't care that you or anyone else is offended by my use or anyone else's use of the reference JAP ! Why don't you tell that to the Hundreds of thousands of descendents of Americans lost in the Pacific War ! God ! I can't BELIEVE the feminization of American males that has taken place in this country in the last 20 years ! If we EVER have to fight a real war again we're going to get our asses handed to us ! The Politically Insensitive and Sexist, Delta 3-2



sven -> (7/14/2001 6:21:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by DELTA3-2: Well I KNEW some politically correct WHINER would complain that I used the term JAP ! Guess what ? There were thousands of AMERICANS who families were disrupted by the surprise JAPANESE attack on Pearl Harbor on 7 DEC 41. As I'm not politically correct I really don't care that you or anyone else is offended by my use or anyone else's use of the reference JAP ! Why don't you tell that to the Hundreds of thousands of descendents of Americans lost in the Pacific War ! God ! People like you want to may me vomit ! Delta 3-2
Eloquent as always delta. You are an inspiration for the whole of mankind. Form follows function. sven



DELTA32 -> (7/14/2001 6:24:00 AM)

It is such a sad thing on this forum that people want to correct and chastise others who post when "they" don't like terms or phrases or whatever used in messages here. I posted a comment regarding the change I believe I noticed in the depiction of Japanese Army/Marines. However, what do I get ? Not responses from players who have/haven't noticed what I have in game play. Rather I get a lesson in politically correct, panty-waisted, left-wing, righteous bullshit from feminized American males who want to feel "good" about themselves ! Let me ask you clowns something .... Will any of you lose sleep tonight because I used the term JAP when referring to Japanese troops ? If you don't like a term or phrase used by others on a thread then start a separate topic on political correctness ! But, if you don't have a comment on the subject of the thread then keep your fingers off the damn keyboard ! TWO BOMBS WEREN'T ENOUGH ! The Ever Sexist, Politically Incorrect, and Indifferent to your feelings..... Delta 3-2



Supervisor -> (7/14/2001 6:26:00 AM)

Just some insight, while playing Quadalcanal 1942 Campaign with v6.1 through the first 2 scenarios, and saw no sign of a weaker JPN force. On numerous accounts I had several Sherman's and Raiders on the doorsteps of JPN Construction crews and they just stood their and kept taking a pounding, never had a surrender, disperse, retreat or flee. Had an occassional Panic but that's it, and if an inexperienced, undertrained, under weapon equipped crews are willing to take that kind of punishment without regret I don't think it's a problem with JPN as a whole, it maybe just a problem with the individual Campaign or Scenario.



DELTA32 -> (7/14/2001 6:29:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by sven: Eloquent as always delta. You are an inspiration for the whole of mankind. Form follows function. sven
Sven my man....I THANK YOU ! Your Buddy, Delta 3-2



sven -> (7/14/2001 6:30:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by DELTA3-2: It is such a sad thing on this forum that people want to correct and chastise others who post when "they" don't like terms or phrases or whatever used in messages here. I posted a comment regarding the change I believe I noticed in the depiction of Japanese Army/Marines. However, what do I get ? Not responses from players who have/haven't noticed what I have in game play. Rather I get a lesson in politically correct, panty-waisted, left-wing, righteous bullshit from feminized American males who want to feel "good" about themselves ! Let me ask you clowns something .... Will any of you lose sleep tonight because I used the term JAP when referring to Japanese troops ? If you don't like a term or phrase used by others on a thread then start a separate topic on political correctness ! But, if you don't have a comment on the subject of the thread then keep your fingers off the damn keyboard ! TWO BOMBS WEREN'T ENOUGH ! The Ever Sexist, Politically Incorrect, and Indifferent to your feelings..... Delta 3-2
Yet more fascinating wit from our resident human relations supervisor Delta 3-2. Delta is a kind sensitive human being. Delta how is that Nobel holding up? sven



DELTA32 -> (7/14/2001 6:37:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by sven: Yet more fascinating wit from our resident human relations supervisor Delta 3-2. Delta is a kind sensitive human being. Delta how is that Nobel holding up? sven
My Dear Friend Sven....the burden of the Nobel is almost more than I can bear ! However, I see you are well on your way to once again, trying to help me see the error of my ways ! Now Sven ol' buddy....how's about your comments on the performance of Jap troops/Marines in 6.1 game play ? That's what this thread is all about. Or if you don't have an opinion, I welcome you to play a PBEM game of "Bushmasters" with me so we can help WB figure out if the Japs in 6.1 are too feminized ! Heheheheheheh.....and FYI....I have slots 1-10 open. The Ever Lovable.... Delta 3-2



BruceAZ -> (7/14/2001 7:16:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by gmenfan: Just some insight, while playing Quadalcanal 1942 Campaign with v6.1 through the first 2 scenarios, and saw no sign of a weaker JPN force. On numerous accounts I had several Sherman's and Raiders on the doorsteps of JPN Construction crews and they just stood their and kept taking a pounding, never had a surrender, disperse, retreat or flee. Had an occassional Panic but that's it, and if an inexperienced, undertrained, under weapon equipped crews are willing to take that kind of punishment without regret I don't think it's a problem with JPN as a whole, it maybe just a problem with the individual Campaign or Scenario.
Actually, no. The OOB was altered to reflect how these civilians were in 1942. For example, the morale and experience was lowered significantly but their numbers were increased. Additionally, they were given pistols and old rifles instead of typical Japanese equipment. Look at their leader names and ratings. They are civilians. Bruce Semper Fi



Supervisor -> (7/14/2001 8:45:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by 5thRecon: Actually, no. The OOB was altered to reflect how these civilians were in 1942. For example, the morale and experience was lowered significantly but their numbers were increased. Additionally, they were given pistols and old rifles instead of typical Japanese equipment. Look at their leader names and ratings. They are civilians. Bruce Semper Fi
The Construction crew was just an example, I also saw no quit in snipers, caves or JPN Inf Sqd B within the same scenarios. I didn't see any sign of weakness with any of the JPN opponents, even when they were surrounded getting pummled while their fellow commrads were getting mowed down. They wouldn't even flee during numerous overruns.



BruceAZ -> (7/14/2001 9:34:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by gmenfan: The Construction crew was just an example, I also saw no quit in snipers, caves or JPN Inf Sqd B within the same scenarios. I didn't see any sign of weakness with any of the JPN opponents, even when they were surrounded getting pummled while their fellow commrads were getting mowed down. They wouldn't even flee during numerous overruns.
Welcome to the Pacific Theater! It’s a different type of war and your enemy does not believe in retreat. Read the opening notes to the Campaign again and you will see why the Code of Bushido is so apparent in this campaign. Good luck, you will need it. Try reading the “42 Guad Campaign” thread. It has some tips that may help. This is SPWAW at its best! :eek: :eek: Bruce Semper Fi



El Vito -> (7/14/2001 12:10:00 PM)

Anyone else think Delta 3-2 is a large size A-hole? Or is that too politically correct?



Wild Bill -> (7/14/2001 12:27:00 PM)

Delta, I played three hard Japanese scenarios and they seem to be the same. What has changed is the improved infantry routine for firing and kills. In Water to Blood (I love that one!), I got a draw, a hair from a minor as the Japanese. Even with Stuarts flanking me, it came out okay. So I would say they are okay. It is just a different war now with the new and much improved routines. And lest this start getting ugly, we'll bring this little discussion to a close. It was a good one, and I appreciate you taking note of the differences, Delta 3-2. Wild Bill



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