Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (Full Version)

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tm1 -> Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (7/1/2021 1:03:38 AM)

Hi
Can someone give a refresher course on captured enemy equipment and what happens to it.

I remember the discussions about it on the WITE1 forums back in the day but my memory on the subject is fuzzy.

had quick look through the manual but must have missed the section will look again a little later.

I know some of it gets exported to Axis Allies for use, and some gets used by the Germans.

In my current game its August 1942 and i have so much stuff just sitting around doing nothing.

If look at the 3 examples here

T-34 M1941 334

KV-1 M1941 120

T-26 M1937 711

Ok I know the Germans thought most of the captured stuff was junk so to speak but T-34s and KV-1s were not.
Also having to manufacture different ammunition also comes into play here.

So if there scrapping a percentage of equipment and melting the steel down to build Panzers they seem to be taking there time or something.

[image]local://upfiles/44686/C848DFD620F649C3937578E660297204.jpg[/image]



tm1 -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (7/1/2021 1:13:16 AM)

Here is a follow up post on this, after looking through my list of captured equipment being used by the Germans.

So far the most used piece is a Howitzer artillery Gun, the 122MM leFH388(r).

If we look at foreign tanks

There is a entry for The Panzer T-34B 747(r) which has 31 available but none being used.

This tank is one of the tanks I mentioned in the above post I think I have 334 of them sitting around.

It just seem strange this stuff is sitting around rusting.


[image]local://upfiles/44686/1055D626A34947FEB7E23AF9B584A040.jpg[/image]



SheperdN7 -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (7/20/2021 7:02:51 PM)

I have the same problem in my games, very surprised this isn't getting much attention. I think it has to do with a replacement-TOE isssue. For example I think that German Panzer Divisions are refusing to use captured T-26's because the T-26 is counted as a "light tank" when the German panzer TOE uses "recon tank". Doesn't explain the lack of T-34 use though.



Q-Ball -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (7/20/2021 8:50:30 PM)

A couple things.

First, alot of the captured equipment has to be upgraded to German versions; the 122mm 388r is one example, and the T-34 Panzer designation another. They won't be used until that German upgrade has occurred. IRL, the Germans added cupolas or different sights to equpiment and made minor changes. In game terms it's to keep a lid on all the captured stuff.

Then, it will only be deployed to units that have that in their TOE. The 122mm is "Artillery", so it does get used pretty easily. The T-34, on the other hand, is a "Foreign Medium Tank", and so will only get used in slots designated to that. That means a couple specialized battalion-sized units that use "Foreign Medium Tank", really the T-34s. IIRC, you get one or two. You will NOT see T-34s equip Panzer Divisions for example

Hope that helps.....alot of the captured stuff isn't going to get used



Great_Ajax -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (7/20/2021 11:15:22 PM)

Logistics was the major constraint behind keeping these stockpiles from being used. Where do you get trained crews? Training veteran panzer crews on the new Panther tank could take 4-6 months alone. How do you train mechanics on foreign vehicles? How do you develop a complex system of supplying spare parts, tracks, wheels, ammunition that your country doesn't produce? How do you perform basic day to day maintenances? POL (Petroleum, Oil and Lubricants) requirements for these foreign vehicles are different from the standards that are in current production. Getting stockpiles of unused AFVs is the easy part. Having a complex logistics and training system that can keep these vehicles in operation past the first week of operations is what makes fielding them an almost waste of time.

Trey



56ajax -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (7/21/2021 12:06:47 AM)

From memory the largest number of captured Soviet tanks used operationally by the Axis at any one time was in the low 40's.

And how many were lost to friendly fire? Shoot first and ask questions later.



SheperdN7 -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (7/21/2021 5:16:21 AM)

quote:

A couple things.

First, alot of the captured equipment has to be upgraded to German versions; the 122mm 388r is one example, and the T-34 Panzer designation another. They won't be used until that German upgrade has occurred. IRL, the Germans added cupolas or different sights to equpiment and made minor changes. In game terms it's to keep a lid on all the captured stuff.

Then, it will only be deployed to units that have that in their TOE. The 122mm is "Artillery", so it does get used pretty easily. The T-34, on the other hand, is a "Foreign Medium Tank", and so will only get used in slots designated to that. That means a couple specialized battalion-sized units that use "Foreign Medium Tank", really the T-34s. IIRC, you get one or two. You will NOT see T-34s equip Panzer Divisions for example

Hope that helps.....alot of the captured stuff isn't going to get used


quote:

Logistics was the major constraint behind keeping these stockpiles from being used. Where do you get trained crews? Training veteran panzer crews on the new Panther tank could take 4-6 months alone. How do you train mechanics on foreign vehicles? How do you develop a complex system of supplying spare parts, tracks, wheels, ammunition that your country doesn't produce? How do you perform basic day to day maintenances? POL (Petroleum, Oil and Lubricants) requirements for these foreign vehicles are different from the standards that are in current production. Getting stockpiles of unused AFVs is the easy part. Having a complex logistics and training system that can keep these vehicles in operation past the first week of operations is what makes fielding them an almost waste of time.

Trey


Both of you are completely fair with your answers and I agree it does make the game much more historical and true to life. Its just a big change from WitE 1 is all and I would've expected those big stockpiles of captured equipment like the T-26 used for SOMETHING, even if its just scrapping and gaining a vehicle point and some ARM points out of it. As I recall reading somewhere a substantial number of captured tanks would have their turrets removed and would be used as recovery vehicles. Just weird seeing 700+ pieces just sitting there in the pool until the game ends. My Romanian Armoured Division need some tanks!![:D]
+




AlbertN -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (7/21/2021 3:00:07 PM)

Captured equipment was commonly used in general across the war - for instance there is plenty of French tanks used around.
Given they had time to be refitted, and many ended up dug in as part of the Atlantic Wall (But they were already somewhere in France and not at the other end of Europe).

But ultimately I think here the decision is correct to limit the 'usage of it'.
Some foundry work to convert it into armaments can be nice, certainly, or to pass it to the Axis minors too which often are short of armaments!
But to overdo it risks to screw the system.

Then again it would fit nicely for the Axis IF ever they can create formations, to be able to use admin points to create 'Foreign Panzer Battallion'.



erikbengtsson -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (7/21/2021 3:29:52 PM)

How many admin points should they cost, to simulate a parallel supply, logistics and training structure that needs to be set up? Surely, too many for it to be worth it.

In game, and historically, the German armoured vehicle pool was already a logistical nightmare, without anything but minimal use of Soviet tanks.



Steelers708 -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (7/21/2021 3:41:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

From memory the largest number of captured Soviet tanks used operationally by the Axis at any one time was in the low 40's.

And how many were lost to friendly fire? Shoot first and ask questions later.


Whilst numbers were never huge your figure of low 40's is on the low, e.g. on the 16th June 1943 frontline units had 100 Soviet beutepanzer in their ranks. This figure would quite easily double once you add in the second line Beute-Panzer-Kompanien of the Sicherungs Divisions and the Polizei-Panzer-kompanien etc.

And so it would be nice to see the odd few appear in units.




Q-Ball -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (7/21/2021 4:13:38 PM)

A couple other points.

Vs. WITE 1.0, I have noticed that you capture WAY more intact equipment than in WITE 1.0. I'm on T-8 in a game as Axis, and I already have 113 T-34, and hundreds of 122mm, 76mm, lots of stuff

In game terms, though, here is what it means really:

1. Germans get 2 Panzer Bn that use the captured T-34s. They have to be "produced" from your captured stocks starting in 1942. They won't have a huge impact, since they can really only be used by these specialty units that draw "Foreign Medium Tanks"
2. Several Artillery devices though start to Produce on 1/42 from captured stocks. They will be used, because they can be used by any units that needs "Artillery" or "Mortars" or "Light Artillery". Look in the equipment list for anything with an (r), those are captured Russian models that have been upgraded for German use. It's 122mm M-30s, 76.2mm Field Guns, 82mm Mortars, and later the 120mm Mortar. The most useful are the 122mm M-30s, since you tend to run short on larger Artillery.

The rest is really just chrome; any AFV except T-34 will not be used (other than the Finns take some). All other Artillery, like 152mm, 85mm AA, and others will just rot.




snuffl -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (12/9/2021 1:39:38 PM)

Well it seems as if the captured equipment is not even used when speaking of the production of the german converted versions of 122mm M-30s, 76.2mm Field Guns, 82mm Mortars, and later the 120mm Mortar. As you can see in the screen above from tm1 his stock of 122mm M-30 Howitzer, 82mm M41 Mortar, T-34 etc. has not been touched, and his game is in 08/42, and the production of the stuff should have started in 01/42. But he produced the german version of the T-34 as seen above.

Ran a test with production dates of captured equipment starting in 06/41 and things just get poduced without touching the captured stuff ... so even if you would not have captured anything, this stuff would get produced.

So there are two possibilites:

1) the Process is flawed - at least when it comes to checking for captured stuff in the pool and substracting captured stuff from pool
2) WAD and everything is completely streamlined no matter what you do (would be really sad and very disappointing)

Chris





Hardradi -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (12/9/2021 7:54:02 PM)

What about the Paznerjager II/Marder II?

I presume one of these is utilising the Soviet 7.62mm gun.



snuffl -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (12/10/2021 6:25:01 AM)

Yes I know they used them in reality but the problem is the game does not seem to take account for the captured equipment ... everything gets produced no matter if it is there or not, the pools stay the same it is just the exports where the pool changes.
The function where you set to import a specific ground element to produce another one seems to have changed, at least when it comes to captured equipment pools - have testet this with manipulating the generic files.

To keep the long story short, the pools of captured equipment are just chrome beside the few exports to axis minors! As I said the only thing I can't tell for sure is if this is WAS or a bug in the mechanism ...



Joel Billings -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (12/10/2021 3:56:48 PM)

I'll move this to the tech support area. I can't answer the questions without a deep dive with a programmer looking at the system and the displays to figure out what's actually going on versus what is being reported. I'll try to take a look at this in the near future to see if I need saves to show the programmers or if I've got enough info.



snuffl -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (12/11/2021 7:13:17 AM)

Thanks Joel!
Should not be a problem to reproduce, just change the production start of let's say the german variant of the 122mm M-30 Howitzer to 1/41 or 6/41 so that it can be produced from the beginning. you don't need to make attacks just move on to turn two and you will see the item being produced even if there is no pool of captured 122mm M-30 Howitzer. If there would be some pieces in the pool they would not get touched and the production runs anyway.

Greets Chris



Joel Billings -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (12/13/2021 10:26:28 PM)

After looking at this, I found that we already have items on our task list regarding the fact that the production list of Captured Equipment is not changing when one is actually imported into a usable German ground element. What I can't answer is whether equipment is converted to usable without there being enough equipment actually captured. Looking at my test games, and using the T-34B 747(r) as an example, starting in January 1942 1 is imported each week, until it reaches the max import level of 50 (that is all good, assuming there were enough captured). I see eventually 1 unit starts using them and they do get used. The list of captured equipment only reaches 41 in the Pool and Captured columns. Based on the display, it wouldn't appear that they are being converted, but 50 do become available.

This will stay on the list until Pavel is able to do a deep dive into how the captured system works in WitE2 and whether the production display has anything to do with what's going on. Until then, I'd just say you're probably getting the amount of usable captured equipment that we felt was historically correct, but can't say if it is actually coming from captured equipment. I will say in my test games, the Germans use a ton of captured artillery and mortars as the war goes on.



snuffl -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (12/14/2021 5:19:29 AM)

Thx Joel!

What I observed is that equipment, which is imported from another ID (captured equipment) just gets normally produced within the given or edited parameters (starting date, max. production/week, max. imports etc.) just like normal 105mm leFH artillery for example. And I'm sure the pools are not checked as I said if you edit the ground element to begin production on 06/41, on turn two you have manufactured it in the pool without substracting from captured equipment or without any captured equipment it would need to import from at all.

Kind regards
Chris



Joel Billings -> RE: Captured Tanks and Equipment ? (12/15/2021 10:00:24 PM)

I did a test by making the German T-34 import starting in 1941 and ran a turn and sure enough I got my import on turn 2 even though no t-34s were reported as captured and I could find no elements in the German pool to be imported. Will bug it with my save. Thanks.



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