[Logged] Missiles against BS misses most of time (Full Version)

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morphin -> [Logged] Missiles against BS misses most of time (7/7/2021 11:51:26 AM)

Hi
I'm on the latest 1147.28 and i wonder why most of my SAM (Mostly RIM-174A) misses the fast ASBM Missiles (DF-21D).
I have thrown a lot of missiles against the DF-21D (about 2 missiles against each ASBM and then a second run with about 10 missiles) but often they misses.
Is the also in Reality that most the RIM-174A misses ASBM targets?

(In this scenario i can not use the RIM-161E SM-3 because it seems that i have no long range radar to guide this missile. So i was unable to use this missile against the DF-21D.

Thank's for any explanation



morphin -> RE: Missiles against BS misses most of time (7/7/2021 11:55:02 AM)

This is the run with about 10 missiles each against 8 incomming missile (Total 80 Missiles send out). I have run 3 times and each time at least one ASBM was going trough all the missiles! (But only once from three runs a Destroyer was hit).

So it seems 80 missiles are not enough to prevent DF-21 missiles hitting a target.... Is this also in Reality?



WSBot -> RE: Missiles against BS misses most of time (7/7/2021 3:42:51 PM)

0014644



KungPao -> RE: Missiles against BS misses most of time (7/7/2021 4:13:20 PM)

The intercept point is way off.

Not sure if it is a bug or WAD



DWReese -> RE: [Logged] Missiles against BS misses most of time (7/7/2021 5:32:56 PM)

This is just for information.

I just ran it in another scenario. I have the WRA set up to fire 4 RIM-174 missiles at each of the incoming missiles. On hit will usually only cause it to get a minor trajectory deviation. I have found that 4 will usually do the trick.

In my scenario, I had 4 incoming DF-21s, so the AI fired off a total of 16 RIM 174s. All flew as expected. All turned on their seekers as expected. Numerous hits occurred (some misses as well). All four incoming missiles were destroyed, and one RIM-174 was still flying with all of the targets gone when I stopped the scenario.

From my perspective, they worked exactly as they should.

I am also using 1147.28, with the most updated database.

Doug



DWReese -> RE: [Logged] Missiles against BS misses most of time (7/7/2021 5:37:45 PM)

Do you have the scenario saved from a time BEFORE the RIM-174s were fired?

Doug



morphin -> RE: [Logged] Missiles against BS misses most of time (7/7/2021 7:10:47 PM)

I have one before. See attachment
Thank's



BDukes -> RE: [Logged] Missiles against BS misses most of time (7/7/2021 7:19:31 PM)

Just ran a test using 1147.28 with the latest DB. I'm with Doug on this. The results were consistent with my assumptions[:)]

If you can post a file maybe there is something we're missing.

Mike



DWReese -> RE: [Logged] Missiles against BS misses most of time (7/8/2021 2:34:16 AM)

Here are some of my play test notes:

1.) MOST IMPORTANT: Place the USS LORENSON in between the firing group and the targets. This is for observation purposes only. If this ship can see the missiles then they can be fired upon. It will let you know what is happening during this test phase.
2.) You have the Doctrine set at HOLD , was that for a reason?
3.) I could NOT get the weapons to fire AUTO, but I could fire MANUAL.
4.) Disabling the RIM-161Es so that they wouldn't fire, I fired four RIM-174s at each incoming missile.
5.) All of the missiles were able to be fired manually with no problem.
6.) The group on the left was straight on to the target. Their missiles were not fired on any angle. There were 4 incoming missiles, therefore I fired a total of 16 at them. They were hit multiple times before finally being destroyed. In fact, I had 3 let over.
7.) The group on the right never altered their course and fired at an angle. There were 7 or 8 incoming missiles. Again I fired 4 each manually. All of the missiles were destroyed except one, which got through. I was unable to fire any additional RIM-174s as the ones that missed were chasing the original group. I don't know if that prohibits more missiles from being fired since several are still in the air. If so, then they need a detonate button.

So, the straight-on intercept works fine. The angled one had more missiles to deal with, and came from an angle, so that makes the trajectory issues more problematic. Still, most of the incoming missiles were destroyed.

The major issue that I have is why didn't they fire automatically? Why were they able to be fired manually, but not automatically? Everything was green, but they allowed them to walk right in and destroy the ships without my intervention.

Doug




morphin -> RE: [Logged] Missiles against BS misses most of time (7/8/2021 2:54:09 AM)

THank you very much Doug. I will have a look at
I thought that i changed the doctrine for the group to free, but that was probably in a later savegame..

I cannot find USS SORENSON, Did you mean USS Chosin?

So you mean that turning a ship against incoming missiles raises the changes to get a hit? So maybe ungroup the ships and set manually a course would help? I will try this.



DWReese -> RE: [Logged] Missiles against BS misses most of time (7/8/2021 3:19:52 AM)

I corrected the spelling---it's LORENSON. It's a T-AGM, or something like that. It's a ballistic missile tracking ship. Always place that in there when you are testing. It can detect anything, and it will let you know if tings are being tracked. That will eliminate some issues when trying to figure out "WHY" something isn't working right.

I'm still testing right now.

Doug



DWReese -> RE: Missiles against BS misses most of time (7/8/2021 3:31:10 AM)

In reference to SAMs (and such) being fired at incoming missiles, does a SAM that misses have to run out of fuel before a new missile can be fired at the target? I sometimes believe that new missiles can't be fired until the old ones are disposed of. I've had several situations where my ABMs miss the target, try to turn around and catch it, which is fruitless, and that seems to keep any new missiles from being fired because some of the originals are still flying? Does that have anything to do with it? If it does, then perhaps a detonate button could be created to eliminate them to enable new missiles to be fired?

Doug



morphin -> RE: [Logged] Missiles against BS misses most of time (7/8/2021 3:53:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

I corrected the spelling---it's LORENSON. It's a T-AGM, or something like that. It's a ballistic missile tracking ship. Always place that in there when you are testing. It can detect anything, and it will let you know if tings are being tracked. That will eliminate some issues when trying to figure out "WHY" something isn't working right.

I'm still testing right now.

Doug


Ok now i understand. It is not a ship in my scenario i play....But this influence the scenario? (I mean it helps to guide the missiles?)



DWReese -> RE: [Logged] Missiles against BS misses most of time (7/8/2021 10:43:05 AM)

The ships, from what I have seen, will often turn themselves so that they are perpendicular to the incoming missile before they fire. This is done automatically. It seems to help with guidance and the trajectory. If the ship doesn't, then you sometimes get shots that are slightly off. That's why I was asking if you had the game intentionally set to manual.

Interestingly enough, I play a similar scenario using the same weapons. My ships all seem to work perfectly. Of course, I haven't had enough time to play test yours and mine and compare them. That would help.

Another thing that I've noticed is that ships that are stock seem to function better than ships whose weaponry has been altered. I don't know if this makes any difference or not. I do know that changes to the database often create some weird occurrences that aren't initially apparent. The game will play one way using once database, and then updating the database (even one level---you are one database below the most current) can sometimes play a role. In fact, I've been trying to conduct tests on your scenario using both databases, and then mine doing the same thing. So, that's like four different testing platforms for evaluation.

This may be difficult for the devs to track down since it appears to work perfectly on some occasions, and differently on others. That's why including as much info as possible is always the best.

BTW, I place the SORENSEN in there to SEE what is being seen. That way I can determine if the ships aren't shooting because they can't track it, or if they aren't shooting for some other reason. The RIM 161s need something to be able to detect the missiles at a great distance. There are a couple of land-based ones that can do it as well. The RIM 161E has a range of about 1300+ miles, but if it depends on its own sensors, then it won't see the incoming missiles until they are too close. If they are too close, then they can't fire at all. That's why I place it there. If you don't need it in the scenario, then just remove it. But, while you are trying to test it, then it's nice to be able to have it so that you can SEE everything.

Doug




morphin -> RE: [Logged] Missiles against BS misses most of time (7/8/2021 12:23:13 PM)

Thanks Doug. I learned something from you.
It is a scenario from steam, not one of mine, but i have already wondered why there are no sensors in this scenario that can track the RIM 161E....



DWReese -> RE: [Logged] Missiles against BS misses most of time (7/8/2021 12:59:35 PM)

There aren't many sensors that can. Most are ground based, and they have limited range. Theoretically, it's longer, but not in the game. The LORSENSEN is cool because it can track these things. It is great for scenario construction.

In the real world, based on what I have seen in CMO, these missiles are sort of worthless unless the attack is coming under pristine conditions. If the missiles are detected too late, then they can't shoot at all because they are now too low. Only the RIM-161E has the range, but it has to have something that detects it far enough away. That isn't always available.

One of the things with your scenario is there are two ships within the group that are firing. Each comes from a slightly different angle. I believe that the angle has something to do with what you are seeing. But, who knows? It's something about THAT scenario, I think.

Play around with it some more. I have to head out now. I'll take a look again later.

Doug



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