Thinking of buying the game. Can anyone explain how much freedom the player has in terms of outcomes (Full Version)

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laagamer -> Thinking of buying the game. Can anyone explain how much freedom the player has in terms of outcomes (7/8/2021 6:15:43 AM)

Basically, can I win as the Axis? Or am I always destined to lose?

I realize this isn't HoI4, but how much interesting stuff can I do?

Thanks!



Kursk1943 -> RE: Thinking of buying the game. Can anyone explain how much freedom the player has in terms of outcomes (7/8/2021 7:41:50 AM)

Yes, you can win for sure. It is possible to gain enough Victory Points (provided by target cities) either in 1942 or 1943. You can also win by preventing the Soviets to gain enough points once the initiative changes in 1943. Then you can win end of 1944 or 1945. But if you expect to totally wipe out the Red Army and reach the eastern end of the game map, then you maybe disappointed...[:D]



Slush -> RE: Thinking of buying the game. Can anyone explain how much freedom the player has in terms of outcomes (7/8/2021 7:46:00 AM)

Well, first of it’s not a sand box game. It’s pretty much history on rails; a reenactment of the real thing. The victory point system is tied directly to historical performance; overperform, and you will “win”; underperform, and you will “lose”. Underperforming also means taking a different approach than historically.

So, there’s nothing in the way of “what if?”. What if I move one Panzergruppe from AGC to AGS or AGN at the start of Barbarossa? What if the Soviets had completed their new defensive posture in early 1941? What if Operation Mars got priority over Operation Uranus?

The best way to look at WiTE2 is to regard it as an operational level wargame that likes to dabble in air tactics. You are NOT in strategic command. You can set the flight paths of squadrons, the flying height, and even the load-out they have, and you can move land combat units and assign them to other commands, but you cannot influence what equipment they have or even when or if they get transferred to other theatres. Your objectives are set, and whether you win or lose is measured against what transpired historically

It’s not a bad thing. WiTE2 is a great game, but it is not a free exploration of what happened or could have had happened in the Russo-German war of 1941-45.



loki100 -> RE: Thinking of buying the game. Can anyone explain how much freedom the player has in terms of outcomes (7/8/2021 7:48:38 AM)

have a look at the AARs, there are two by players who weren't in the testing team (vs AI) that lead to 1943 axis victories, so winning is feasible.

To me, you have a minimal chance of an early win, basically just get the Soviets off balance in the opening turns and exploit that to the full. This is also a win early/die horribly strategy. The other likely route to an axis win is in 1942 (or poss into 1943) when you start closer to the final objectives, you should have a better supply network and the Soviets have little ground to give - how far you can exploit this really depends on how well you managed the 1941-2 winter phase.

below the win/loss, there are constraints but you have a lot of freedom. Its best to imagine you are in charge of OKH or Stavka not Hitler or Stalin. So the VP system adds in that political level, equally you don't have much (any) control over industrial production choices.

So interesting things to explore - can you make the historical Barbarossa work, can you use the very early design of 2 Pzr Groups towards Leningrad, 2 in the Ukraine, where to strike in 1942. And then there is the endless operational layer, how to put an offensive together, how to preserve your army despite the time pressures etc.

Finally, you can engage with the game in stages. The AI assistance for the air war, logistics system and handling the off map Support Units are all pretty decent (esp if you are playing the AI), so at start you can essentially focus on handling the on-map counters.



AlbertN -> RE: Thinking of buying the game. Can anyone explain how much freedom the player has in terms of outcomes (7/8/2021 10:02:42 AM)

'Victory' as Axis here is pratically 'Do better than the history'. That is the concept.

From a 'map vision' viewpoint, Axis will persistently take the beating, the ensured production of the Soviets, the scripted national morale downfall, and other factors ensure that unless an automatic victory is scored via Victory Points, the Soviets will beat down the Germans later.

I do not know the 'when', the 'how much', and the details as I am far from being experienced - and I remember the first WITE took years to get to some balance otherwise the Soviets were wrapping up games in '43-'44 in the first incarnations (MP games where the Axis was not tossing it right away or was not played by some extremely skilled player vs a not that good soviet).

So I'd get the game and confide that it will improve in time balance wise, but the essence of 'Germany is to lose the war' will be always there. German player can win the game by Victory Points.



kahta -> RE: Thinking of buying the game. Can anyone explain how much freedom the player has in terms of outcomes (7/8/2021 2:32:32 PM)

If you're interested in alternative history, check out the scenario I've created in my signature.

I've also got an AAR going that describes part of my 1943 plans.



Kursk1943 -> RE: Thinking of buying the game. Can anyone explain how much freedom the player has in terms of outcomes (7/8/2021 3:09:02 PM)

Link going to nowhere...



freeboy -> RE: Thinking of buying the game. Can anyone explain how much freedom the player has in terms of outcomes (7/9/2021 6:08:16 PM)

You certainly can easily adjust the main important changes, morale and distribution etc... I think there are five items ... setting them for easier play allows you to "win"
setting your own vic conditions too. ie If I take 2 of Moscow Lenn Stal etc ... the game really has great flex
BUT
The plain as is game, you will have an ever diminished axis power and increased Red army as war wears on..



kahta -> RE: Thinking of buying the game. Can anyone explain how much freedom the player has in terms of outcomes (7/9/2021 8:55:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kursk1943

Link going to nowhere...


Try it now



GloriousRuse -> RE: Thinking of buying the game. Can anyone explain how much freedom the player has in terms of outcomes (7/9/2021 11:19:43 PM)

So, the Germans can “win the war” by effectively hit their ‘41, 42, or ‘43 instant victory checks. That represents actually dealing enough political and economic damage with enough shock effect to knock Russia out. After that the German player has a chance to win the game (but not the war, per se) by keeping the Russian relative advance slower/smaller than his was in his glory days.

It should be noted that much like reality, the strategic situation means winning the war can only happen with extraordinary results, not as a common outcome between evenly matched players.



laagamer -> RE: Thinking of buying the game. Can anyone explain how much freedom the player has in terms of outcomes (7/11/2021 5:11:51 AM)

Thank you all for the responses!

So, what I'm gathering is, is that morale and productions systems in the game, and the bonuses thereof given to Russia, create an impossible scenario for a total Axis victory.

You're never going to be able to produce enough man power to take over the entire map? There is no Axis powers "win". There's only Axis powers "don't lose".



GloriousRuse -> RE: Thinking of buying the game. Can anyone explain how much freedom the player has in terms of outcomes (7/11/2021 5:17:15 PM)

No, there is an axis power win. You can knock the Russians out in ‘41, ‘42, or ‘43 through performance. It’s an instant victory check based on, and it has been done in H2H, but for it to happen requires a crushing victory on behalf of the Germans. You can’t just edge your way into ending the war, you need to put the Russians flat on their back, step in their throat, and then keep them there. It is not easy, but it can and has been done. If you fully execute the original Barbarossa targets for example (Moscow and Leningrad included) in ‘41, you win the war. If you manage to successfully execute case blue and take the Caucasus after a reasonably historic ‘41 (or an operation of similar scale and value), you win the war. If you somehow hold on through ‘43 and keep the Russians down and drive them back to Asia, you win the war.

However, between two evenly matched opponents, an uninterrupted string of crushing dominance is unlikely. To do any of the above requires not just a curb stomping, but that that balance of play remains through multiple play periods. It’s not that it can’t be done, it just that most players in your range aren’t going to let you do it to them, and not will the AI on higher levels. At that point it’s in to winning the game rather than the war.



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