War in the West? (Full Version)

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MarkShot -> War in the West? (7/13/2021 6:20:39 AM)

Yes, I know which forum this is in. I am old, but NOT that old.

My question is if I am liking this game would I like that as well? Or will I find it too much a step backwards?

Also, when is usually the next Matrix sale? Do I need to wait for Christmas? Or is there are a Back to School sale to keep good little boys from doing their home work?

Thanks.



loki100 -> RE: War in the West? (7/13/2021 7:11:41 AM)

I really like WiTW and did a campaign not long ago.

You have to unlearn a few WiTE2 concepts but its not too bad.

In its favour (this is mostly as the Allies):

a) at start very low unit density (this only becomes an issue by late 1944)
b) the strategic airwar is a great sub-game if you like that sort of planning problem (for both sides)
c) as the Allies you have more moments of real strategic choice than either side get in WitE2. So where to put your 2nd/3rd Italian invasion, how much to commit to Italy, where in France are big game defining choices.
d) you can drop a lot of bombs
e) with an opponent who sticks to say 4 turns a week, its feasible to do the 1943 GC in 3-4 months

The air war is more nuanced. By that I mean esp the Allies often have just the plane for the role. So as an eg, I find the Mosquito FB ideal for interdiction raids on rail lines, they have range and agility and usually this out of where the axis fighters are likely to be.



MarkShot -> RE: War in the West? (7/13/2021 7:36:45 AM)

Thanks Loki,

I know I just missed a sale. Is like the next Black Friday? (I am not to familiar with Matrix cycle. It would have been nice to get it for 70% off.)



Shadak -> RE: War in the West? (7/13/2021 10:04:56 AM)

I tried playing WITW after WITE2 and while its still great and has plenty of scenarios, I find I actually miss some of the new mechanics like fatigue/CPP etc.
So yeah, on a sale would be the best option.



MarkShot -> RE: War in the West? (7/13/2021 11:16:30 AM)

Yep, that is what I am worried about. That it will be hard to relinquish some of these features.



Q-Ball -> RE: War in the West? (7/13/2021 1:44:08 PM)

I wonder if there will be a WITW 2, porting over the advanced elements of WITE 2 to that game?

I'd buy it



MarkShot -> RE: War in the West? (7/13/2021 3:36:20 PM)

Yes, it is an obvious question given the huge map.

They did NOT build the map just for the Theater Boxes.



erikbengtsson -> RE: War in the West? (7/13/2021 3:45:05 PM)

Imagine a WiEaNA, "War in Europe and North Africa" game.. [:D]



Q-Ball -> RE: War in the West? (7/13/2021 4:14:35 PM)

Linking the two together would be VERY difficult. A WITW 2 could be an interim step.

Staring a WITW in 1941 to coincide with Barbarossa would be very complicated. In particular, the North African campaign, and the related Naval War, would be really tough.

Axis supplies and troops to North Africa were restricted by Allied Naval and Air Power....how do you model that effectively?

And how do you model Vichy France?

Very tough



821Bobo -> RE: War in the West? (7/13/2021 4:17:25 PM)

Also divisional level won't work very well in Afrika(same problem as Finland) due to low density of units.



Q-Ball -> RE: War in the West? (7/13/2021 4:35:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

Also divisional level won't work very well in Afrika(same problem as Finland) due to low density of units.


That's right, that too....I just don't think a North Africa campaign works well with this scale and model. A good German player could just pocket 8th Army, BOOM, war over.

I think WITW 2 is more realistic



Commanderski -> RE: War in the West? (7/13/2021 6:13:39 PM)

This was discussed a very long time ago in both the WITE1 and WIW forums. Gary's long time goal is to have a War in Europe type game, not sure if Africa would be included or when the start date would be. The current map is ready to use, all they need to do is make the area's playable



GloriousRuse -> RE: War in the West? (7/13/2021 11:39:30 PM)

WitW was my first GG game, and I think it is still a very strong option - particularly for HvH. It has most of the logistics modeling of WITE2 and most of the combat engine. It doesn’t have CPP, but the nature of how it’s scored (allies lose points for losses), the force density, the tendency for battling along a line and then withdrawal/pursuit rather than breakthrough and blitz, and the logistics make that less immediately relevant than you might think. The one note is that air AI assist isn’t present and logistics are all manual, but given you REALLY, REALLY care about the air, you wouldn’t AI it anyhow.

It benefits from a low stakes and small scale opening (Sicily), giving you time to learn and avoiding “lose the game on T1”, then ramps up naturally in scale and complexity Italy-France-NWE-Germany. You might only fight a couple attacks a turn, and even at max OOB probably manage no more than half of what you might have in WITE2. All in all, it’s a very friendly game to learn on (comparatively), and for reference I finished two games with Loki in about the time it took to get to T41 in my AAR here. And they actually finished…you’re quite likely to go all 97 turns, ‘43 - ‘45, or close to it as opposed to WITE2 where it seems like a lot of games cash out in ‘41/‘42.

Add on top it packs a whole lot of decision making and thinking on top of less clicking, and you can get a lot of excellent HvH play packed in a “small” package.



MarkShot -> RE: War in the West? (7/14/2021 5:06:28 AM)

How is the game running at 1080P? Comparable to WITE-2?

Thanks.



erikbengtsson -> RE: War in the West? (7/14/2021 9:09:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commanderski

This was discussed a very long time ago in both the WITE1 and WIW forums. Gary's long time goal is to have a War in Europe type game, not sure if Africa would be included or when the start date would be. The current map is ready to use, all they need to do is make the area's playable

A War in Europe game with North Africa, Norway and Finland covered by theatre boxes (for unit size/logistics reasons). Three sides, western allies, Germany and USSR, all able to be played by the AI. Perhaps Poland as an optional AI side too.

I would play it. How long would the turns take, though? [:)]



loki100 -> RE: War in the West? (7/14/2021 11:19:22 AM)

this is said with absolutely no idea of what might happen

but --

a) Joel and Gary are committed to Steel Tigers (see Joel's interview in late 2020);
b) One reason for starting WiTW with the invasion of Sicily was there is no naval module
c) One reason for starting the Torch campaign with the allies entering Tunisia was to avoid the complex politics around Vichy and the need for substantive sub-regimental OOB if it started with the landings in Morocco.

So while the basic design of WiTW probably could support a fusion with the WiTE2 code, its a serious bit of work to ensure that WiTW emerges as a playable game in its own right.

That naturally gets you a Sicily/Kursk set up, so not a huge amount of fun for the axis side? Its fine in the context of WiTW not least as a lot of games are vs the defensive axis AI and a German player has few illusions as to what is going to happen (so winning is all about doing better).

WiTW is very VP orientated, far more than the design in WiTE2, in part to bring in some of the more political aspects of the fighting.

To take WiTW back to 22 June 1941 will need a significant naval module (even if you could handle bits like the strategic U-boat war as a theatre). You'd need this to make sense of the various campaigns in the Med and would need something to interact submarines with general naval operations. As above, the sensible scale for most of the N African campaign is battalion/regiment.



MarkShot -> RE: War in the West? (7/14/2021 12:30:32 PM)

Well, I bought it.

I think it should be easy to get up to speed if you know WITE-2.

About the most noticeable difference is that secondary screens don't use the full 1080p real estate in WITW.



TallBlondJohn -> RE: War in the West? (7/14/2021 9:30:10 PM)

How about War in the Middle? Poland and the Battle of France. These campaigns don't need naval apart from Dunkirk (units routing through a functioning port get away but lose all equipment), no amphibious invasions, little strategic air and would suit divisional scale much better than the invasion battles of 1943/1944. Save the complex stuff for later!



Omat -> RE: War in the West? (7/15/2021 9:13:34 AM)

Hello

The engine is using 1 week for one turn... would be a very short campaign (invasion of Poland and France)
Do not think so interesting without the other Tab's




quote:

ORIGINAL: TallBlondJohn

How about War in the Middle? Poland and the Battle of France. These campaigns don't need naval apart from Dunkirk (units routing through a functioning port get away but lose all equipment), no amphibious invasions, little strategic air and would suit divisional scale much better than the invasion battles of 1943/1944. Save the complex stuff for later!




Kriegsspieler -> RE: War in the West? (7/15/2021 3:11:25 PM)

The thing I liked most about WitW was the strategic bombing campaign, which was light years more refined than in the old Eagle Day game. It was so engrossing that at times I just wanted to ignore the ground campaign!

Someday I would like these guys to put everything together into a War in Europe game that begins in 1939. I know that would take a huge amount of work to put a good naval module into the game, but they DO have some prior experience with this on the other side of the world. (Odd that I find myself plugging War in the Pacific everywhere today).

Or they could just do a reboot of War in the Pacific. It's a mark of how good that game was that the Admiral's Edition variant is still played today.



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