Turn 11 (Full Version)

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RoadWarrior -> Turn 11 (8/2/2021 11:43:47 AM)

River crossed.

[image]local://upfiles/71576/4852B8E701024A2F8FBA3B81F2B338FB.jpg[/image]



RoadWarrior -> RE: Turn 11 (8/2/2021 11:45:20 AM)

2nd PG looks to form a pocket and shorten the lines.

[image]local://upfiles/71576/B1E85C80C0744BC4A0CEA013BB1E272A.jpg[/image]



RoadWarrior -> RE: Turn 11 (8/2/2021 11:48:48 AM)

Very few supplies and replacements are getting to the front at this point even with railhead close to the front.

I agreed not to use unhistorical SD so play on.

[image]local://upfiles/71576/1D89414E3E234463BA55098F7B32C522.jpg[/image]



RoadWarrior -> Turn 12 (8/8/2021 11:02:03 AM)

Another hex cleared. This will take a while, but most of 4th PG is at close to top strength so it should fall before blizzard.

[image]local://upfiles/71576/A290A1299DCF494CA8689B134CD80F45.jpg[/image]



RoadWarrior -> RE: Turn 12 (8/8/2021 11:03:12 AM)

Tring to close the pocket.

[image]local://upfiles/71576/1A1EA6282F18401C9ECC6222FFA65950.jpg[/image]



RoadWarrior -> RE: Turn 12 (8/8/2021 11:04:49 AM)

3rd PG pushes across the land bridge, while AGS rests

[image]local://upfiles/71576/5DCDEBD1F127488A8B2EB73E4C14D4BB.jpg[/image]



Q-Ball -> RE: Turn 9 (8/8/2021 1:45:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

It is a nice delay for the Soviets, but is it really worth it to do that with mech/tank units? For each one of those lost, it can give Germany up to a thousand captured trucks or so. I would try to do that sort of thing more often in my own Soviet game if I were not mortally afraid of giving Germany captured trucks. Over the long run, capturing the Soviet units that were encircled as a result of this should help the Axis logistics. In this case maybe it is worth it anyway because it was quite a large raid and it looks like only 2-3 tank divisions ended up being lost, but it looks like it could have easily ended up with more lost for the Soviets. ?


As the opponent, in this case I think it was worth it (obviously!). We are playing a few turns ahead; in the end I lost 3 mobile divisions and an infantry division; alot of those units he had to rout out of there just to restore communications. I managed to re-seal the pocket a 2nd turn, so that's 2 turns where that Panzer Group spent halted and not drawing supplies...well worth it, IMO.

Overall, here are my comments to Roadwarriors' good AAR:

AGN: This is a disaster for me.....I did not commit enough units early, and RW took full advantage with a deep thrust all the way to Novgorod on T-3. Well done. Good thing this is a game as I could've ended up in Lubyanka prison for that one....

AGC: Obviously going much better at this point; it wasn't a focus area for RW it seemed, and Smolensk held out a long time. As Soviets you absolutely cannot lose Moscow, and at this point I knew that was not going to happen this summer

AGS: More mixed; I had been giving up ground, but keeping the Red Army intact

Overall, probably my greatest success at this point is not in ground, but in keeping the Red Army in one piece (more or less). Each turn I would withdraw 3-4 hexes in front of the infantry; that surrenders ground, but also keeps pockets to a minimum.



AlbertN -> RE: Turn 9 (8/10/2021 6:58:23 PM)

The persistently retreating Soviets is something that mindboggles me in my games.
It simply denies pockets and anything in general besides netting some terrain.
VPs need to be more granular across the map - or the system to me does not really work to stop Soviets from retreating consistently and persistently til they're fat enough to build up a wall. Ontop of their incessant CPP build-up.



RoadWarrior -> RE: Turn 9 (8/10/2021 9:51:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

The persistently retreating Soviets is something that mindboggles me in my games.
It simply denies pockets and anything in general besides netting some terrain.
VPs need to be more granular across the map - or the system to me does not really work to stop Soviets from retreating consistently and persistently til they're fat enough to build up a wall. Ontop of their incessant CPP build-up.


Q-Ball is simply playing based on the rules 2by3 has set at this time and they do seem to be anti-historical.

BUT as German player I am doing the same. I know winter is coming, I know of the mistakes made by Germany.
You really need to understand how logistics works. I am still figuring it out myself, but turns 1-10 I have it "figured out". After that without using the unhistorical logistics rules, still working on it.

We should hold final judgement based on how things play out. Playing out means 45 final results are they close to historical or semi close or not close?

Personally I agree with you, but we have not invested our lives ( a ton of time) into this logistics system.

The VP system does need allot of "hellllp", but no way of knowing how much until some games get into 45.



jubjub -> RE: Turn 9 (8/10/2021 10:06:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

The persistently retreating Soviets is something that mindboggles me in my games.
It simply denies pockets and anything in general besides netting some terrain.
VPs need to be more granular across the map - or the system to me does not really work to stop Soviets from retreating consistently and persistently til they're fat enough to build up a wall. Ontop of their incessant CPP build-up.



Soviets that don't fight until winter are going to gift all of the bonus VP's to the Axis player and let them get a decent logistics network in place before the winter. Unless they have a spectacular winter offensive, the Axis player should be set up for a really high HWM in '42.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Turn 9 (8/10/2021 10:22:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

The persistently retreating Soviets is something that mindboggles me in my games.
It simply denies pockets and anything in general besides netting some terrain.
VPs need to be more granular across the map - or the system to me does not really work to stop Soviets from retreating consistently and persistently til they're fat enough to build up a wall. Ontop of their incessant CPP build-up.



Soviets that don't fight until winter are going to gift all of the bonus VP's to the Axis player and let them get a decent logistics network in place before the winter. Unless they have a spectacular winter offensive, the Axis player should be set up for a really high HWM in '42.





It is a dance if you will. Give up too much land it will come back to haunt you. Give up too little land you get surrounded. You have to know the balance & your opponent. Not knowing either one of those two will come back to haunt you.




Aurelian -> RE: Turn 9 (8/10/2021 10:54:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

The persistently retreating Soviets is something that mindboggles me in my games.
It simply denies pockets and anything in general besides netting some terrain.
VPs need to be more granular across the map - or the system to me does not really work to stop Soviets from retreating consistently and persistently til they're fat enough to build up a wall. Ontop of their incessant CPP build-up.


Stop breaking the line and I'll stop retreating :[:D]



RoadWarrior -> Turn 13 (8/11/2021 8:31:25 AM)

AGN takes a few more hexes and keeps digging the winter lines.

[image]local://upfiles/71576/01246958BBC54A2989E1C6F6A2861D35.jpg[/image]



RoadWarrior -> RE: Turn 13 (8/11/2021 8:32:57 AM)

Looks like Q-Ball will be able to get all or most of his troops out.

[image]local://upfiles/71576/FB87650C378A462BA23725D5ABB5165B.jpg[/image]



RoadWarrior -> RE: Turn 13 (8/11/2021 8:34:41 AM)

3rd PG brakes into the Crimea.

[image]local://upfiles/71576/9F1AD778710F4870B46D9EF8C7473BE5.jpg[/image]



RoadWarrior -> Turn 15 (8/13/2021 9:49:51 AM)

OOB

[image]local://upfiles/71576/827017151697478C87692C2887D8398A.jpg[/image]



RoadWarrior -> RE: Turn 15 (8/13/2021 9:50:32 AM)

Ground Losses

[image]local://upfiles/71576/35CF7E6B75D74D268B28F6B47B94EC41.jpg[/image]



RoadWarrior -> RE: Turn 15 (8/13/2021 9:51:04 AM)

Air Losses

[image]local://upfiles/71576/7A1BB25FC3044B338BBC49656A0C9B3D.jpg[/image]



RoadWarrior -> RE: Turn 15 (8/13/2021 9:52:08 AM)

Leningrad is captured.

[image]local://upfiles/71576/6379D9734330424BB60DE175FCA173A3.jpg[/image]



RoadWarrior -> RE: Turn 15 (8/13/2021 9:54:55 AM)

Nothing happening in the center or the south really at this point.

[image]local://upfiles/71576/C6F0359B66624C53999490EE2182B0E9.jpg[/image]



RoadWarrior -> Turn 20 (8/13/2021 10:32:27 AM)

VP

[image]local://upfiles/71576/120287F7F6D14298BEB4090296F81489.jpg[/image]



RoadWarrior -> RE: Turn 20 (8/13/2021 10:33:00 AM)

OOB

[image]local://upfiles/71576/C1388099E4F447999D75B0BC10E26195.jpg[/image]



RoadWarrior -> RE: Turn 20 (8/13/2021 10:33:47 AM)

Ground Losses

[image]local://upfiles/71576/8E8DAC9A2A9145D18289B8F28D884676.jpg[/image]



RoadWarrior -> RE: Turn 20 (8/13/2021 10:46:14 AM)

For the summer AGN has captured everything I had hoped for and has been digging in for several months, rail repair and supplies is stock piled with depots every 4-6 hexes along the front lines
to keep truck use to a min. AGN is now 9th, 16th and 18th armies with several Panzer Corp in reserve.

AGC did as planned, which was not much to be frank. It is still prepping for winter, supply lines about 2/3 done and reserves are in place or on the way.

As can be seen 4th PG is on the way to AGC and AGS. 1 Infantry Corp is being railed to the Crimea to mop up that area when the ground is solid.

[image]local://upfiles/71576/A4582208F00348D6A1D31CC0404E2280.jpg[/image]



RoadWarrior -> RE: Turn 20 (8/13/2021 10:54:07 AM)

AGS did not do everything I had hoped for, Stalino is still in enemy hands.

Most of 1,2 and 3 PGs will be in this area in reserve. Supplies are still not getting to the front depots dispite a good rail net in the area.
AGN and AGC are on normal supply and get more supplies than AGS set on 3 or 4. It is like distance from Germany is more important than the rail net ext.

[image]local://upfiles/71576/6DFC7A00F06544F294D70EBFC49F9011.jpg[/image]



loki100 -> RE: Turn 20 (8/13/2021 12:38:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RoadWarrior

...
AGN and AGC are on normal supply and get more supplies than AGS set on 3 or 4. It is like distance from Germany is more important than the rail net ext.

..


yes, that is indeed the key part of the WiTE2 logistics model compares to WiTE1 where raulhead location was all important [;)]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Turn 20 (8/13/2021 1:17:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: RoadWarrior

...
AGN and AGC are on normal supply and get more supplies than AGS set on 3 or 4. It is like distance from Germany is more important than the rail net ext.

..


yes, that is indeed the key part of the WiTE2 logistics model compares to WiTE1 where raulhead location was all important [;)]


Yup, that supply problem is in effect until end of March 42.



RoadWarrior -> RE: Turn 20 (8/13/2021 1:52:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: RoadWarrior

...
AGN and AGC are on normal supply and get more supplies than AGS set on 3 or 4. It is like distance from Germany is more important than the rail net ext.

..




yes, that is indeed the key part of the WiTE2 logistics model compares to WiTE1 where raulhead location was all important [;)]


Yup, that supply problem is in effect until end of March 42.





That's good to know NOW!

Yes next game going harder in center probably as SU can't run 3-4 hexes per turn and supplies are never low after turn 4-6.
So could kill allot more and make a real push on Moscow. Do about the same until turn 4 than shift units to center as fuel in center is back to 90% by turn 7.

Basiclly no fuel in south even sitting on top of a RH 2 hexes past Dnep. Sitting in the city a unit will fill up to 150% in a few turns crazy what a difference 20 miles makes with this logistics system.

Game seems to easy for SU to avoid losses by simply running 2-3 hexes even in center going to be next to impossible to come close to historical KIA levels with a system that's based on retreating and not fighting forward as per historical.

As more AAR's are posted the running tactics will get better and better. Attacking is a fixed rule based on logistics so not much can be done to improve. Seems way to pro Russian to me and looking forward will be almost all game over by 44.

Just my 10 cents



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Turn 20 (8/13/2021 2:33:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RoadWarrior

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: RoadWarrior

...
AGN and AGC are on normal supply and get more supplies than AGS set on 3 or 4. It is like distance from Germany is more important than the rail net ext.

..




yes, that is indeed the key part of the WiTE2 logistics model compares to WiTE1 where raulhead location was all important [;)]


Yup, that supply problem is in effect until end of March 42.





That's good to know NOW!

Yes next game going harder in center probably as SU can't run 3-4 hexes per turn and supplies are never low after turn 4-6.
So could kill allot more and make a real push on Moscow. Do about the same until turn 4 than shift units to center as fuel in center is back to 90% by turn 7.

Basiclly no fuel in south even sitting on top of a RH 2 hexes past Dnep. Sitting in the city a unit will fill up to 150% in a few turns crazy what a difference 20 miles makes with this logistics system.

Game seems to easy for SU to avoid losses by simply running 2-3 hexes even in center going to be next to impossible to come close to historical KIA levels with a system that's based on retreating and not fighting forward as per historical.

As more AAR's are posted the running tactics will get better and better. Attacking is a fixed rule based on logistics so not much can be done to improve. Seems way to pro Russian to me and looking forward will be almost all game over by 44.

Just my 10 cents



I forecast excellent results in your next game pushing Center as priority!



Q-Ball -> RE: Turn 20 (8/13/2021 3:34:23 PM)

I'm told I can post here...I think the analysis on AGC and supplies is spot-on, and I also think based on this I would run a Soviet Campaign differently next time.

In this one, I way under-committed in AGN sector, and over-committed in AGS. I did withdraw a handful of hexes, but I also ended up with alot of forces, and stopped withdrawls in front of Kharkov and Stalino. By then, I had alot of reserves

A counter to an AGC focus and the supply constraints is to not defend AGS hardly at all, and just send everyone to the center; I am facing that in another game, where it's down to just screening forces basically in AGS. I'll be able to take Rostov and all the other cities, but supply will be a huge problem! Stalingrad is out of reach even if it's not defended, just no gas to get there.

"Just Run" is not a strategy. My #1 objective was to preserve the Red Army, and that means preventing encirclements was the #1 objective. Preventing encirclements can mean not allowing the infantry to plow holes for the Panzers to exploit.



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