Questions about Sweden (Full Version)

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taffjones -> Questions about Sweden (7/24/2021 1:59:32 AM)

Hi Hubert/Bill
After a recent PBEM game I have a couple of Questions about Sweden.

1 - If the Allies DoW on a neutral Norway, does it shift Sweden to the Axis and if so by what % range?
If it doesn't why not, surly it should do (unless Sweden is leaning to the Allies) as it's obvious that they will be invaded next.

2 - I moved the Swedish Corps that deploys in the North to protect the mines, but despite the mines being at 5 strength, the corps was at supply level of 1. What am I missing here?



Cpuncher -> RE: Questions about Sweden (7/24/2021 1:49:52 PM)

1 - ATM, Allies DOW Norway does not shift Sweden toward Axis, and I agree it should, perhaps by a lot, enough to allow Axis to bring her in with some Diplo.

2 - Mines and Oils don't provide supply, only MPP.

Welcome back and best to your recovery.



taffjones -> RE: Questions about Sweden (7/24/2021 4:37:02 PM)

Thanks Cpuncher



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Questions about Sweden (7/24/2021 8:47:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: taffjones

Thanks Cpuncher







[image]local://upfiles/62194/E77EC5F5DDAF41C7BB81BD0DB502C30A.jpg[/image]



BillRunacre -> RE: Questions about Sweden (7/26/2021 9:08:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher

1 - ATM, Allies DOW Norway does not shift Sweden toward Axis, and I agree it should, perhaps by a lot, enough to allow Axis to bring her in with some Diplo.



On the other hand, if an Allied DOW on Norway should move Sweden towards the Axis, should not an Axis DOW on Norway have the equal and opposite effect of moving Sweden away from the Axis?

If not, I think we need to be clear why not?

I'm just thinking that while on the surface this request makes sense, I'm not sure why Sweden would react negatively to one side's invasion and not the other.

As one of the aims of both sides was to stop/protect Narvik being used to export ore to Germany, I'm also not sure that it necessarily follows that Sweden would fear being the next target of an invasion?

I guess I'm a little wary of introducing something that might impact on one side more than the other without a very strong reasoning behind it. Additionally, the Allies are already penalised harder if they attack Norway because it will swing the USA more against them than an Axis DOW swings the USA towards the Allies.



Cpuncher -> RE: Questions about Sweden (7/26/2021 12:10:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

As one of the aims of both sides was to stop/protect Narvik being used to export ore to Germany, I'm also not sure that it necessarily follows that Sweden would fear being the next target of an invasion?

I guess I'm a little wary of introducing something that might impact on one side more than the other without a very strong reasoning behind it. Additionally, the Allies are already penalised harder if they attack Norway because it will swing the USA more against them than an Axis DOW swings the USA towards the Allies.


I think you are right here. In fact, I just learned that Allied actually planned to invade Norway in 42, one of goal is the invasion will pressure Sweden to move away from Axis. I guess an invasion of your neighbor can work both ways.



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Questions about Sweden (7/26/2021 2:50:42 PM)

WW2 Politics of Scandinavia, probably isn't black/white call. Just because their neighbor is DOW/Invaded by either Axis/Allies, doesn't mean their country gonna join the non-aggressor. I'd argue the opposite for Sweden.

--The government is probably gonna slow roll their cards.
--The military folks would lean who's gonna feed them and not shoot them
--Common civilian dudes are gonna lean stay alive
--Then throw in the geography or specific area in question. If I'm some dude working a Natural Resource in the Northern part of the country, think I'm gonna pick a side based on some Bureaucrat says.

Same could be said about nearly every country in Europe during WW2
--Denmark had an Army of 10 ppl, might as well bring out that white flag
--Many countries, wanted to join the 3R
--France was all about intra-country politics (Vichy)
--Axis Minors Hungary/Romania hard to figure out. One moment they're spring into action in Barby 1941 to Stalingrad. Later, they join Russia. Later they are fighting each other.

What a mess.



smckechnie -> Game realities vs real history (7/27/2021 4:26:39 AM)

Here are some things to think about for Swedish diplomatic reaction. First some historical background.

1. Sweden’s overall goal was to stay neutral and not get invaded.
2. When Norway got invaded by the Germans this actually moved Sweden to be closer to Germany until 1943. Sweden was effectively surrounded by the axis when Norway was taken. To not get invaded they played nice with the Germans. They allowed German troop movements through the country and kept the Iron ore shipments to Germany.
3. Sweden was dependent on German coal for survival, gets cold up there. So people who criticize their shipping ore to Germany don’t get that it was a matter of survival. It wasn’t like the allies could ship in coal to the place.
4. When the war started to turn against Germany, Sweden, started to appease the allies more with certain things.
5. Sweden did profit lots from the war apparently, with trade with Germany.
6. There is an ongoing argument that German war industry would have been severely hurt without Iron ore from Sweden. Some arguing that the war would have ended sooner if the shipments had stopped.

For the game:

1. If the allies take Norway, then Germany seriously threatened on its northern flank probably more than would have been the case in real life.
2. With control of Norway the allied navies can more easily get into the Baltic. In the game this is possible, but in reality it would have been suiicide for any allied surface ship to go into the Baltic. The Luftwaffe would have blown them out of the water up until the end of the war. The game doesn’t do a great job of taking this fact into account.
3. I do not think that the game accurately depicts the strength of the Swedish defense forces. Maybe early on in the war, but by 1943 they had 500k plus troops that they could call on. It is too easy to conquer them in the game.
4. Diplomatically it is the opposite of what you would think. If the allies invade Norway, Sweden would move more to the allies diplomatically to appease the allies. Shut off iron ore shipments. In attempt to not be invaded.
5. If the Germans invade Norway, Sweden moves more to the axis.
6. Overall, it should be hard for either side to get Sweden mobilized to fight for either side, as there number 1 goal was to not be involved in the war.





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