Operational losses (Full Version)

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thedoctorking -> Operational losses (8/9/2021 2:06:43 PM)

So the situation is it's April 1943. It's fair weather across most of the front, with the exception of rain in the Leningrad/Velikie Luki sectors and down by the Black Sea. I set up Recon directives for most of my air armies, and some ground attack directives in critical areas where I'm planning to attack. I put my NBAD guys on ground attack for interdiction. My average air unit experience is about 50 (all the lower experience guys are off in the Reserves training up). I run the air phase, and 20-some planes get shot down by flak, and 500 are operational casualties. About one sortie in every eight or so results in the pilot crashing the plane. Are Soviet pilots so incredibly clumsy that they can't even fly a simple mission in clear weather without cracking up? What's the solution? Is it the weather, should I be limiting air missions to Good or Excellent weather only?



AlbertN -> RE: Operational losses (8/9/2021 2:54:23 PM)

Personally I believe operational losses are far too high.
Even the best pilots of the Luftwaffe in '41 suffer horrendous operational losses flying recon at 'low intensity' over a 3 or 4 radius mission. (Just an example not to mention Air Superiority operational losses...)

It seems various factors all bundle up:

Weather
Pilot Experience & Fatigue
Type of Airbase (tier 1 Airbases are pretty poor, like just levelled dirt)
Mileage travelled (The sum of all your sorties for that plane)
How far the planes have travelled (Range, it seems to reach the extremes of your operational range raises operational damage chances)

Plus I've read on the forums someone said that planes may get damaged by let's say flak, and then just crash on the way back.

Despite trying to pay attention to all these details above, my planes still get trashed by operational losses. Being Germans in '41.



CJM -> RE: Operational losses (8/9/2021 4:13:00 PM)

I just try to avoid putting any planes on Level 1 (read "dirt) airstrips.

Also, set your altitude properly for your planes or else they will get shot at by not only the hexes they fly over, but also by all adjacent hex AA units. (Read 19.3 in the manual, p.223)

Last, pilot fatigue is big for causes crashes -- rest/rotate your pilots when needed.

Hope this helps. The big difference for me came when I adjusted my altitude for the missions.



Denniss -> RE: Operational losses (8/9/2021 4:39:44 PM)

most of the airwar in the east was flown from those "dirt" airstrips unless a front bec<me static for some time, giving engineer some more building/preparation time.



GibsonPete -> RE: Operational losses (8/9/2021 5:25:55 PM)

Additionally, do not forget aircraft reliability. The BF 109F2 operational losses were partly related to its 15 reliability verses the BF 109E7 rating of 10. Running minimum sorties every other day seems to help.



Dreamslayer -> RE: Operational losses (8/9/2021 6:34:41 PM)

It's so simple .
There is the formula that explanes how Op.losses are calculated. Maybe developers could share it with the community or players will guess it endlessly. All these assumptions and hypotheses... With a same success people can use Tarot cards. Some wargames have clear mathematical formulas in their manuals.



loki100 -> RE: Operational losses (8/10/2021 5:49:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

It's so simple .
There is the formula that explanes how Op.losses are calculated. Maybe developers could share it with the community or players will guess it endlessly. All these assumptions and hypotheses... With a same success people can use Tarot cards. Some wargames have clear mathematical formulas in their manuals.


ok, I'll accept your claim that there are mythical manuals out there that have these detailed formualae - though must confess I seem to have missed them [;)]

Now, you know the variables that feed into this - they are listed above and in our incomplete manual. You know the main tool to avoid too high operational losses.

The 'formula' would be insanely complicated to write out as I suspect its highly conditional and even once its complete there is a die roll, does this damaged plane crash or not and so on.

So I'm really not sure what the formula tells you that the criteria, and controls, doesn't. I run recon 3 days a week with the Germans in 1941, I keep the army level recon formations working the 2-4 hexes behind the front, use the AG level recon to look at a deeper sector where I have an interest (or wish to misdirect that I have an interest). I run up 20 or so operational losses per turn.

By the end of 1941 I need to scrap a load of the biplane air groups to concentrate the assets in a few that are then up around decent strength. But when I return the LW to the map in March 42 I repeat the model of each active army gets a local recon asset and the longer range stuff is then more of a strategic asset.

I think I get a good trade off between knowledge and losses using the provided concepts. I really struggle to know how wading through what would be an interminable formula (with lots of conditional tests) would gain me?



freeboy -> RE: Operational losses (8/10/2021 2:12:51 PM)

> re op loss
is this pilots as well as airframes ?



thedoctorking -> RE: Operational losses (8/10/2021 6:37:03 PM)

There's another formula that determines if the pilot becomes a casualty if their plane is lost.



freeboy -> RE: Operational losses (8/10/2021 7:25:28 PM)

I was thinking of the real war and planes would be disabled and needing work to fly.. bad engine etc .. thanks



thedoctorking -> RE: Operational losses (8/10/2021 7:26:35 PM)

Another turn, following all your advice (mostly operating out of lvl-2 airfields, alternate day operations at most, low fatigue, experience of squadrons almost entirely over 50, restricted range for operations to four or five hexes beyond our lines, bases at or near required levels of air support, now Good weather across the front) 7192 sorties, 370 operational losses, 144 flak losses, no German planes seen, 436 pilots KIA. So good weather reduces operational casualties to about one mission in 20, but still an unsustainable level of casualties even without any opposition from the Luftwaffe.



Jango32 -> RE: Operational losses (8/10/2021 7:59:25 PM)

Set the altitude from 17k to 20k (adjust as you need to), run recon only on one day, 100 mission AC pts, no escorts.



AlbertN -> RE: Operational losses (8/10/2021 8:24:50 PM)

Sorry but out of 7000+ sorties, a lot of operational losses are more than normal - considering Soviet pilots are less skilled in general (and I assume that mirrors also in ground crews skill).



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