From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (Full Version)

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tumbi1 -> From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/22/2021 10:04:39 AM)

Hello,

I'm playing as Axis using patch 1.01.02beta, and just found when ending a turn on Sept 7th 1941, the soviets had 20+ divisions in front of Moscow, some routed, then at the start of Sept 14th they had over 60. A lot appear to have come from the south, as they seem to have largely disappeared. How is that possible? The AI can pick up units and put them where it wants? Am I missing something?



[image]local://upfiles/44056/2C18CF61929D463BA1223638F5EC7298.jpg[/image]



tumbi1 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/22/2021 10:05:36 AM)

Sept 14th;



[image]local://upfiles/44056/60A44ACF37854440B4DC8FA6DFD5A5EB.jpg[/image]



tumbi1 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/22/2021 10:06:51 AM)

Saves attached.



loki100 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/22/2021 10:23:26 AM)

WAD - read the manual on how the AI plays esp around line forming routines.



tumbi1 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/22/2021 11:36:58 AM)

What does WAD stand for? I can't see how the Russians can move units that far all within a week - I can't. I counted 17 units in the south that just disappeared, and they weren't on rail lines. I understand it is a computer game, but it isn't close to being realistic.



carlkay58 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/22/2021 12:13:14 PM)

WAD = Works As Designed - in other words, this is what is supposed to happen.

The AI is overly aggressive on reforming lines in front of any solid push by motorized units. One technique against the AI is to push hard in one area (such as a deep penetration or nice sized pocket) then push hard in another sector of the front next turn as the AI has pulled from that sector to reinforce the disaster and so on. Pull your motorized units out of the front line for a turn or two (good for rebuilding CPP) and then hit the defenses again and you will find them much easier to take on.



tumbi1 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/22/2021 12:25:06 PM)

Ok, I get that, but realistically they couldn't move that many units that far in such a short time frame. As I said, I can't do it, and rightfully so. I have seen similar behavior at times in earlier games, but this example was really striking. It looks to me like the AI picked up all his units from the south and placed them immediately in front of Moscow, and within a week. Moving units to railways, loading them, and railway capacities be damned.

I know the 'units on trains' in the front lines has been fixed, but this is similar behavior, and it seems the AI has unlimited rail capacity to anywhere. It tends to defeat the purpose of cutting railways and expecting to obtain strategic reward for it. Does it do the same with supplies? I once reduced the rail lines feeding Leningrad to a single line, and the subsequent massive troop movements there again in a single week was physically impossible.



loki100 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/22/2021 2:48:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tumbi1

Ok, I get that, but realistically they couldn't move that many units that far in such a short time frame. As I said, I can't do it, and rightfully so. I have seen similar behavior at times in earlier games, but this example was really striking. It looks to me like the AI picked up all his units from the south and placed them immediately in front of Moscow, and within a week. Moving units to railways, loading them, and railway capacities be damned.

I know the 'units on trains' in the front lines has been fixed, but this is similar behavior, and it seems the AI has unlimited rail capacity to anywhere. It tends to defeat the purpose of cutting railways and expecting to obtain strategic reward for it. Does it do the same with supplies? I once reduced the rail lines feeding Leningrad to a single line, and the subsequent massive troop movements there again in a single week was physically impossible.


nothing to do with the trains issue.

There have been a couple of threads on how the AI behaves but in essence it is poor at anticipation (compared to a player) so gets a huge bonus in terms of reaction. Carlkay has described how you can manage this.

To your question, the AI plays by the rules for resupply/logistics, the problem is it can rotate units in/out of a supply poor region far better than a player can. So in your case, that would have hit the supply situation of the units in Leningrad over time.

In effect, interdiction to hamper movement is a bit of a waste of time, interdiction to hamper logistics might be worth it but its less useful than in a HtH game



tumbi1 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/22/2021 3:58:28 PM)

That's interesting in regards the bonus the AI gets in terms of reaction. That nullifies one of the biggest advantages the German's would have gotten if they had captured Moscow, and I have found capturing Moscow doesn't seem to count for much in the game, aside from the lost production and VPs. To my mind, if the Germans had actually captured Moscow, it would have crippled Russia, as they effectively wouldn't have been able to move strategically north to south, and Leningrad would have been more of less cut off. Neither of these occur. The old WIR was better in that regard, as you were better rewarded for strategic achievements like that.

I'm not a programmer/game developer, (I'm a 'cousin' in IT support), so I can't comment on the difficulty of allowing for the strategic benefits to be gained whilst still assisting the AI, which can't 'think', but it is a pity you don't see them. Also I don't think the game allows for the German player to stop at the beginning of October, entrench, and subsequently better survive the winter, as they would have if they had planned it that way. I have tried, and the army just melts away with the blizzard even after a good 6 weeks of preparing. That winter was famous because it was severe and the Germans kept attacking into it, so they naturally suffered hugely, but it wouldn't have happened that way if they had instead stopped and prepared.



OberGeneral -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/22/2021 4:29:12 PM)

Don't get me started! I have railed against this "We have to help the ai" mentallity which introduces
impossible and totally ahistorical troop movements and reinforcements with every developer that
produces war games. I agree with you.



loki100 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/22/2021 4:58:15 PM)

still not a bug but how the AI works, documented in the manual.

Suggest opening a thread in the requests section but do you have any idea how hard it is to construct an AI for this game?



OberGeneral -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/22/2021 5:23:15 PM)

I worked in IT for 35 years for a large utility company. I was a Technical Support Analyst for 20 of those years.
Did not develope games or program an ai but have some idea how hard it must be. What I have trouble understanding
is if you can set rules for the human player could you not also set similar rules for the ai?

I will let tumbi1 open a thread in the requests section if he wishes.

I have read this:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221024440_Steps_toward_Building_of_a_Good_AI_for_Complex_Wargame-Type_Simulation_Games



tumbi1 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/23/2021 2:30:42 AM)

I'll put a thread in the requests section. Yes, I am aware of the effort that goes into the AI, as an outsider, and I am in awe of what has gone into this. This wasn't a criticism, it was just that what I saw was so outrageous I thought it must have been a bug. I think it is a fair question though in regards an alternative option for the AI, but I also question if the amount of effort to configure it is worth it if the player base isn't asking for it. I would just like the AI to be limited to the same ability to move units as I am.



loki100 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/23/2021 7:03:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tumbi1

.... I would just like the AI to be limited to the same ability to move units as I am.


you have that option, play with the AI < 110 morale.

unfortunately you'll also win very easily once you have some mastery of the game systems [:)]



tumbi1 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/23/2021 11:28:02 AM)

Ok - what else is affected by lowering the morale? I read the manual, but can't see where the changes are itemized. Maybe the selections for difficultly could be made more granular? Playing with an AI morale of 110, I can get very close to a sudden victory by October 1st 41, but haven't quite got there yet.



loki100 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/23/2021 12:59:45 PM)

all the non-linear AI gains are set out in section 30.7, which also discusses how the AI does its line forming etc.

If you set say Soviet morale to 105, it loses almost all advantages apart from a small increase in National Morale at a given level, so when its say 45 by default it becomes 48.

Since this is no longer a bug report, really suggest move the discussion to the main forum or as a request for game changes [;)]



AlbertN -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/23/2021 1:54:49 PM)

You can try with the AI at 100, and your own forces at 90 or inferior % of efficiency.
I am not sure how it will pan out.

But in general to code an impressive Pentagon alike AI is not something game designers do, and thus AIs need to be boosted in other ways.




OberGeneral -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/23/2021 4:48:55 PM)

I agree with all the explainations of how the ai is working. I did not mean to sound so critical.
You have all done a great job on this game and I love it. I will try the suggestions
posted here.



HansBolter -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/24/2021 11:31:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

still not a bug but how the AI works, documented in the manual.

Suggest opening a thread in the requests section but do you have any idea how hard it is to construct an AI for this game?



Soooo.....because its hard you convince yourselves it's OK to just go ahead and cheat?



AlbertN -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/24/2021 12:13:58 PM)

Loki is pretty right here though.

Presently it is working as intended.

Your best bet I feel is to advocate for a change where AI at 110 is simply a 10% boost, and that one can individually 'check' the other options so that they're not linked to the % of difficulty. (Akin to Fog of War, enabled or not, one can have the 'AI Added Movement' or 'AI Teleports' etc as option).



tumbi1 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/24/2021 12:46:53 PM)

Many thanks all, I'll put in a suggestion for a change, but will also try what has been put forward here.

In regards to the AI, I think it plays about the best I have seen AI in any comparable game. It doesn't let you get away with much, and that in itself is a big achievement.



tumbi1 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/26/2021 12:56:37 PM)

Hello again,

I have been flat out with work, so only now checked my game. I feel like a goose, but when everyone was mentioning a morale of 110 I thought that was default, but no, I have been playing with everything set to 100, so maybe this is a bug after all as the AI shouldn't be able to do it?



tumbi1 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/27/2021 11:01:04 AM)

Just bumping this, as I am looking at starting a new game and want to check, would this be a bug on normal setting (100)?



Joel Billings -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/27/2021 10:12:38 PM)

This came up about 2 months ago in another tech support thread. At that time we reported that Gary does have some cheat moving going on at 100%. It's not as powerful as the cheat moves used at 110%, as there are some limits and sort of a delayed two step process to the cheat move. But we did find that even with the limits, that system was able to move units around in ways that humans couldn't come close to. We agreed that ideally the AI should not be able to warp as much as it was doing, even though it has to get some benefits as it doesn't know how to shuffle sideways or max rail movement like a human player would.

Gary started on reducing the 100% cheat move, and we even sent it out to a player that had complained about the cheat moves, but other more pressing bugs came up and our internal tests were not good. With the weakened cheat move, the AI was doing much worse. We didn't think players would be happy with that, so we kept things as they were with the idea to back to it once things calmed down on other fronts. We also wanted to see just how many users think this is a problem. While we all would prefer the AI not cheat, we also all want an AI that can challenge players. Various other issues have kept us busy so we have not gone back to look at this again.

Gary is now doing some work on AI for our upcoming expansion scenarios. Expansion scenarios usually provide Gary with a chance to look at various AI issues that come up in the scenarios and see if he can improve things. Right now he just started on AI for Drama on the Danube which includes the Romanian surrender and has more involvement of Bulgarian and Yugoslavian forces. He's actually working on trying to keep the AI from warping through Romania instantaneously when it flips sides. If he succeeds, he will retrofit this AI into the main campaign AI. So it is possible that during his AI work on the expansions he'll find things that may allow him to reduce the cheat movement at 100%.



tumbi1 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/27/2021 10:38:58 PM)

Many thanks Joel, much appreciated. Balancing AI is a very interesting subject! I'll try dropping it just under 100 and see what happens, and will also keep an eye on announced updates etc. I agree, you don't want the AI to be too much of a pushover, and I like the challenge the current AI provides. The feeling I had in this instance, when I felt I was on the brink of surrounding Moscow after a tough battle, and then hey presto, the AI literally grabbed everything and put them right in front of Moscow so I had no hope of capturing it before the mud season hit, was rather deflating. 17 divisions in the south disappeared into 'thin air'.

Keep up the good work, and please pass on my compliments to Gary. I have enjoyed his games for many years.



OberGeneral -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (8/30/2021 4:12:38 AM)

Thanks for the update.



tumbi1 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (9/5/2021 3:13:28 AM)

Quick update; Playing at 98, I have seen the same problems with AI unit movements. I have an example below also where units miraculously escape from a pocket. Maybe I am missing something, but how the 218th Mechanized Division got out of the pocket and moved to where it was the next turn defies logic. I don't remember seeing this behavior in the original version of the game I played, so one of the patches I think has caused this type of thing to happen. This makes the game unplayable IMO, so I am going to remove the patches and go back to the original for the moment. In the following pictures the 218th is indicated by the white arrows.

[image]local://upfiles/44056/83F5CC4AA19B430DB4EB7D9840FB6C2E.jpg[/image]



tumbi1 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (9/5/2021 3:15:39 AM)

The 218th has broken out of the pocket and is now near Rzhev! Note also the number of divisions that have appeared to the north, where at the end of the previous turn there were none.


[image]local://upfiles/44056/27947D1B52824BDCB113B3FC374F5EC4.jpg[/image]



tumbi1 -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (9/5/2021 3:19:48 AM)

Game saves.



Joel Billings -> RE: From 20+ to 60+ divisions in front of Moscow in 1 week? (9/5/2021 5:21:07 AM)

This bug appears to have been fixed. You are running 1.01.02, while I tested 1.01.09 and the units did not warp out of the pocket. You should never see warp like movement out of near pockets that require a zoc to zoc move. Those require a normal move. Whenever you see an escape like this, let us know, because we try to fix any cases that come up. Hopefully one of the many changes made since 1.01.02 fixed this kind of illegal movement and it wasn't just a case of my test with 1.01.09 randomly didn't duplicate what you saw. With 1.01.09, the cav division and anti-tank brigade that had the movement to escape did, the rifle divisions and the motorized division did not.



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