How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (Full Version)

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Neilster -> How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/24/2021 1:08:49 AM)

Kurzgesagt (German for "in a nutshell") is an excellent educational YouTube channel. Don't be put off by the initially childish looking animation. That's just their style.

The scientific information is rock-solid and their videos are always improving. I had a basic understanding of the operation of the immune system but I learned a lot by watching this video about what happens when you cut your thumb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXfEK8G8CUI&t=71s




gekkoguy35 -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/24/2021 12:57:12 PM)

Truly fascinating! I for one loved the animation, haha. Great way to visualize things. For whatever reason when I was younger, I always visualized my immune system styled as a Napoleonic era army. Line troops everywhere battling bacteria and viruses. What a dork, haha.




RangerJoe -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/24/2021 6:06:45 PM)

To think, I thought of my normal cells as peasant farmers fighting off melanoma and loosing until the Cavalry arrived and killed the cancer cells. I imagined the cancer cells as black gingerbread men with white icing for the facial features that when cut, oozed a grey substance. Besides lancers who also had swords, I also imagined horse archers. I also imagined that some of the cancer cells just felt tired and died, while others that divided didn't so so completely and were easy to kill. After breaking through the enemy lines, the Cavalry went on to destroy the enemies bases. Yes, I was taking a substance orally (not chemotherapy) which held promise to keep cancer cells from dviding properly so they would die.

You know what? Whenever I thought like that, there was tingling from where the cancer was. The tumor shrank and changed color from black, to deep purple, to deep red, then on to light red like the aftermath of a blood blister. I did not finish killing it as that part of the food was amputated.




ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/26/2021 1:53:16 AM)

Where there's a delicious Meal, there's a Cook
Where there's a Car, there's a Manufacturer
Where there's a Thumb, there's a Thumb Maker

In each set above, which is greatest?




Neilster -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/26/2021 3:30:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Where there's a delicious Meal, there's a Cook
Where there's a Car, there's a Manufacturer
Where there's a Thumb, there's a Thumb Maker

In each set above, which is greatest?


As you asked "In each set above...", I suppose a cook is greater than a meal and a manufacturer is greater than a car.

According to Wikipedia, this is where human thumbs come from...

A primitive autonomization of the first carpometacarpal joint (CMC) may have occurred in dinosaurs. A real differentiation appeared perhaps 70 mya in early primates, while the shape of the human thumb CMC finally appears about 5 mya. The result of this evolutionary process is a human CMC joint positioned at 80° of pronation, 40 of abduction, and 50° of flexion in relation to an axis passing through the second and third CMC joints.

Opposable thumbs are shared by some primates, including most catarrhines. The climbing and suspensory behaviour in orthograde apes, such as chimpanzees, has resulted in elongated hands while the thumb has remained short. As a result, these primates are unable to perform the pad-to-pad grip associated with opposability. However, in pronograde monkeys such as baboons, an adaptation to a terrestrial lifestyle has led to reduced finger length and thus hand proportions similar to those of humans. Consequently, these primates have dexterous hands and are able to grasp objects using a pad-to-pad grip. It can thus be difficult to identify hand adaptations to manipulation-related tasks based solely on thumb proportions.

The evolution of the fully opposable thumb is usually associated with Homo habilis, a forerunner of Homo sapiens. This, however, is the suggested result of evolution from Homo erectus (around 1 mya) via a series of intermediate anthropoid stages, and is therefore a much more complicated link.

Modern humans are unique in the musculature of their forearm and hand. Yet, they remain autapomorphic, meaning each muscle is found in one or more non-human primates. The extensor pollicis brevis and flexor pollicis longus allow modern humans to have great manipulative skills and strong flexion in the thumb.

However, a more likely scenario may be that the specialized precision gripping hand (equipped with opposable thumb) of Homo habilis preceded walking, with the specialized adaptation of the spine, pelvis, and lower extremities preceding a more advanced hand. And, it is logical that a conservative, highly functional adaptation be followed by a series of more complex ones that complement it. With Homo habilis, an advanced grasping-capable hand was accompanied by facultative bipedalism, possibly implying, assuming a co-opted evolutionary relationship exists, that the latter resulted from the former as obligate bipedalism was yet to follow. Walking may have been a by-product of busy hands and not vice versa.

HACNS1 (also known as Human Accelerated Region 2) is a gene enhancer "that may have contributed to the evolution of the uniquely opposable human thumb, and possibly also modifications in the ankle or foot that allow humans to walk on two legs". Evidence to date shows that of the 110,000 gene enhancer sequences identified in the human genome, HACNS1 has undergone the most change during the human evolution since the chimpanzee-human last common ancestor.


The immune system is similarly the result of millions of years of evolutionary processes. If you are attempting to inject religion into this thread, that seems a strange and unnecessary thing to do.





ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/26/2021 4:42:56 AM)

I didn't inject anything about religion, I just asked a question.

If the thumb evolved according to Wikipedia from Chimps, how come the Chimps down at the Zoo where I was last week, don't have thumbs?
If the thumb is so amazing, why did only 2 digits (aka fingers) made the decision to change? Wouldn't pointer, middle, ring, and pinky want to become thumbs?
Which thumb started evolving first, the left or the right? Or at the same time?
How did the thumb decide to become a thumb? In the last 200 years of science, has the thumb changed according to Wikipedia or scientific studies? Using 200 years just as a reference of time.
How does Wikipedia know it's been a million years to conduct this left & right thumb from a Chimp?
Are thumbs still evolving?












Neilster -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/26/2021 5:13:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

I didn't inject anything about religion, I just asked a question.

If the thumb evolved according to Wikipedia from Chimps, how come the Chimps down at the Zoo where I was last week, don't have thumbs?
If the thumb is so amazing, why did only 2 digits (aka fingers) made the decision to change? Wouldn't pointer, middle, ring, and pinky want to become thumbs?
Which thumb started evolving first, the left or the right? Or at the same time?
How did the thumb decide to become a thumb? In the last 200 years of science, has the thumb changed according to Wikipedia or scientific studies? Using 200 years just as a reference of time.
How does Wikipedia know it's been a million years to conduct this left & right thumb from a Chimp?
Are thumbs still evolving?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumb

That article is fully referenced from peer reviewed scientific publications. The authoritative tone should be a clue.

Oh, the "Hey, I'm just asking questions" line? Nice try. It was clearly an attempt to suggest a supernatural origin for our amazing immune system.

Your questions indicate you have no idea how evolutionary biology works. Before dismissing it, perhaps learn something about it. For example, humans haven't evolved from chimpanzees but rather we have a common ancestor.

This forum is supposed to be a politics and religion free zone.




ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/26/2021 5:20:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

I didn't inject anything about religion, I just asked a question.

If the thumb evolved according to Wikipedia from Chimps, how come the Chimps down at the Zoo where I was last week, don't have thumbs?
If the thumb is so amazing, why did only 2 digits (aka fingers) made the decision to change? Wouldn't pointer, middle, ring, and pinky want to become thumbs?
Which thumb started evolving first, the left or the right? Or at the same time?
How did the thumb decide to become a thumb? In the last 200 years of science, has the thumb changed according to Wikipedia or scientific studies? Using 200 years just as a reference of time.
How does Wikipedia know it's been a million years to conduct this left & right thumb from a Chimp?
Are thumbs still evolving?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumb

That article is fully referenced from peer reviewed scientific publications. The authoritative tone should be a clue.

Oh, the "Hey, I'm just asking questions" line? Nice try. It was clearly an attempt to suggest a supernatural origin for our amazing immune system.

Your questions indicate you have no idea how evolutionary biology works. Before dismissing it, perhaps learn something about it. For example, humans haven't evolved from chimpanzees but rather we have a common ancestor.

This forum is supposed to be a politics and religion free zone.



I've said absolutely nothing about Politics nor Religion. Repeat, ZERO about Politics or Religion.
I just asked a question about science.

I find it interesting that the thumbs evolved on both hands. Can science or Wikipedia or You explain that? If you can, please do. If you cannot, please do.
I'm just asking science a question.

Is it wrong to ask a science question within a science thread?






ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/26/2021 5:22:35 AM)

Repeat, I've said absolutely nothing about Politics nor Religion. Repeat, ZERO about Politics or Religion.

Where have I written one single things about Politics or Religion?

I read your posts
I watched your video
I asked a question
That allowed?




Neilster -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/26/2021 6:12:25 AM)

I'm happy to answer science questions.

If the thumb evolved according to Wikipedia from Chimps, how come the Chimps down at the Zoo where I was last week, don't have thumbs?

The article didn't say that. They do; just not as long as ours and not as opposable because they spends way more time swinging in trees and don't use their hands as we do. They do use tools though; mostly to smash nuts and collect termites.

If the thumb is so amazing, why did only 2 digits (aka fingers) made the decision to change? Wouldn't pointer, middle, ring, and pinky want to become thumbs?

Digits don't "decide" to do anything. Each digit works in concert with the others. Our hand bones can be traced back hundreds of millions of years to flippers. Organisms gradually change over time as the result of changes in DNA due to reproduction and natural mutations. The environment in which organisms live changes too due to climate variability, massive vulcanism, meteorite impacts etc. Whatever works tends to be passed on to the next generation.

Many people make the mistake of thinking evolution is in some way directed. It isn't. It's a completely blind process. My father was a Christian and a scientist. He accepted the logic and evidence for evolution but thought it was somehow directed by Yahweh to produce us, but there is no evidence for that at all. Humans exist because there is an evolutionary niche for an upright walking, omnivorous primate with a large brain. Elephants, Giant Redwoods and mosquitoes are around for the same reason.

Which thumb started evolving first, the left or the right? Or at the same time?

Humans have bilateral symmetry. That question makes no sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetry_in_biology

How did the thumb decide to become a thumb? In the last 200 years of science, has the thumb changed according to Wikipedia or scientific studies? Using 200 years just as a reference of time.

See my answer above - it didn't. Our primate ancestors already had thumbs and as our more recent hominin ancestors started spending more time on the ground and began walking upright, it was advantageous for the thumb to be better adapted for grasping objects and tool making. This process happened over many, many generations. No, thumbs haven't changed in the last 200 years. Any mediaeval painting shows that. The shape of our hands hasn't changed in tens of thousands of years.

How does Wikipedia know it's been a million years to conduct this left & right thumb from a Chimp?

Again, the article doesn't say that. As I said before, humans didn't evolve from chimpanzees. In general though, the scientific method has been repeatedly shown to work. That's why your life expectancy is twice that of those a few hundred years ago, we've built robot spacecraft that've left the Solar System and you have a computational marvel in your pocket that enables you to talk to people on the other side of the world, even though both of you could be moving at hundreds of kilometres an hour.


Are thumbs still evolving?


Yes. Evolution is an ongoing process, but unless things need to change, they don't. Dragonflies are a good example. They basically haven't changed in 350 million years.




ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/26/2021 12:27:14 PM)

Doesn't make sense that a creature that evolved, would remain. Translated: If thumbs (or humans) came from Chimps, did science forget to tell those Chimps?




Orm -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/26/2021 12:29:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Doesn't make sense that a creature that evolved, would remain. Translated: If thumbs (or humans) came from Chimps, did science forget to tell those Chimps?

Well... since neither thumbs, nor humans, came from chimps, I fail to see your point. [&:] [:(]




ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/26/2021 12:31:26 PM)

Point is Colonel, why the two orders? If Private Santiago was in no danger, why the transfer?




RangerJoe -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/26/2021 2:21:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Point is Colonel, why the two orders? If Private Santiago was in no danger, why the transfer?


Because you are or related to an Equus Asinus?




PipFromSlitherine -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/26/2021 3:05:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

Repeat, I've said absolutely nothing about Politics nor Religion. Repeat, ZERO about Politics or Religion.

Where have I written one single things about Politics or Religion?

I read your posts
I watched your video
I asked a question
That allowed?

It's clear what your intent is. Knock it off.

Cheers

Pip




IslandInland -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/28/2021 10:56:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

I didn't inject anything about religion, I just asked a question.

If the thumb evolved according to Wikipedia from Chimps, how come the Chimps down at the Zoo where I was last week, don't have thumbs?
If the thumb is so amazing, why did only 2 digits (aka fingers) made the decision to change? Wouldn't pointer, middle, ring, and pinky want to become thumbs?
Which thumb started evolving first, the left or the right? Or at the same time?
How did the thumb decide to become a thumb? In the last 200 years of science, has the thumb changed according to Wikipedia or scientific studies? Using 200 years just as a reference of time.
How does Wikipedia know it's been a million years to conduct this left & right thumb from a Chimp?
Are thumbs still evolving?



We (humans) are not evolved from any living primates. Also other species have opposable thumbs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thumb#Other_primates






ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/30/2021 11:31:22 AM)

No science, no thinking. Locking this up.

[image]local://upfiles/62194/EA18F0670E114613888F0C6DBA15DD7D.gif[/image]




ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/30/2021 11:35:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

No science. No thinking. Locking this up.

[image]local://upfiles/62194/EA18F0670E114613888F0C6DBA15DD7D.gif[/image]





Erik Rutins -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (8/30/2021 11:50:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

No science. No thinking. Locking this up.

[image]local://upfiles/62194/EA18F0670E114613888F0C6DBA15DD7D.gif[/image]




Trolling is also against the forum rules and you've been doing a whole lot of it. Final warning, chill out and follow the forum rules or you'll get a vacation from the forum to think it over.

Regards,

- Erik




operating -> RE: How your immune system works...it's complicated and very cool (9/1/2021 2:38:16 PM)

Sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I don't, this is one of those times I agree with you..




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