How useful are early German 37mm HE rounds?

How useful are early German 37mm HE rounds? (Full Version)

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Monte -> How useful are early German 37mm HE rounds? (7/15/2001 2:11:00 PM)
I am a bit curious about this particular weapon in 6.1. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that there is anything wrong about how these work in the game. But I would like to learn a bit of tactics from the others. And maybe to hear a bit of the history, or to learn something about the German doctrine in these days. I started my campaign with armor component consisting of two German CS platoons (Mark IVc's) and a horde(two full elite companies, to be precise) of SdKfzs 211 and two SPAA platoons. Works nice in initial Poland engagements, I have a lot of room for upgrades further on. Notice SPWaW newbie error: to much armor. Well, I survived Poland, went to France and started upgrading my 211 armored cars to PzIIIE's. All nice and fine, except I have only two motorized companies of infantry (soon to become armored engineers), and I really, really have to use armor to deal with all that infantry sent my way. And infantry, particularly dug-in type is tough in 6.1. Lots of support points spent on various forms of recce units. So I finally see where enemy infantry is. Here comes artillery barrage and my panzers close in to deliver suppression from 6-7 hexes away. I quickly learned that I am worse of with 37mm HE rounds than firing three machine-guns mounted on PzIIIE’s. PzIVc 75 mm guns work just fine (so I tend to keep my mark IVs a little bit back), but 37 mm HE is almost useless. This is not old SP where you can pump 37 mm HE rounds from 10 hexes away and suppress or rout entrenched infantry. I thought that early British tank design flow was an absence of HE rounds. But how on Earth did Germans benefit from these HE rounds on small caliber guns? Yes, I deliver suppression when I fire them, but it seems to be to little to do any real damage. The only use I can come up with is the situation where hidden AT gun suddenly opens on one of my tanks. Other tanks with LOS to that AT gun fire in turn and my poor guy (assuming it survived initial engagement) has some chance of escaping from the trap. Heavily suppressed, of course. Probably my tanks fire HE rounds on enemy trucks, too. But you don’t see allied trucks all that often in early years. How do you guys use your PzIIIE, Pz38, Pz35 HE rounds? Does anybody know what sort of suppression points these rounds deliver on entrenched infantry? British heavy infantry entrenched in the desert is a nightmare. Heavily armed, difficult to spot, ignorant to 37 mm HE rounds, quick to break LOS and easy to lose in the dust after artillery barrage… Ugly work for Africa Corps. And the reason why I am still waiting with MC purchase :(. Looks extremely difficult, and I am not a pro. [ July 15, 2001: Message edited by: Monte ]

Reg -> (7/15/2001 2:35:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by Monte: *Ugly work for Africa Corps. And the reason why I am still waiting with MC purchase :(. Looks extremely difficult, and I am not a pro.* Don't wait too long, as they are going out of production soon and you'll miss out on the opportunity to get one!! http://www.matrixgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=006237 Reg.

Monte -> (7/15/2001 3:09:00 PM)
Thanks for the heads up, Reg.

Belisarius -> (7/15/2001 6:41:00 PM)
Didn't the Afrika Korps also find out the hard way that 37mm HE weren't enough? just thinking... :rolleyes:

rcread -> (7/16/2001 2:22:00 AM)
The Germans tankers didn't use their 37mm against infantry, because it was so ineffective. As for AT guns, well, that was what the PzIV was for. This does, of course, seem silly to us now, but that was the thinking at the beginning of the war. The only reason they had HE was because all German guns were multi-purpose, and it did do the trick against soft-skinned vehicles. I think the game uses AP against trucks, though. At least older versions did.

Monte -> (7/16/2001 2:53:00 AM)
quote: Didn't the Afrika Korps also find out the hard way that 37mm HE weren't enough? Belisarius, I don't know about the Afrika Korps in real life, but my GE troops learned that lesson long before that. In Poland. By the time they've moved to France and Low Countries, nobody cares about 37mm HE anymore :) Cracker, thanks for your comment, it really helps. If I read you correctly, you do agree that these HE rounds are, more or less, useless. My problem with 37mm HE model in this game is that I don't know how to get rid of them when it comes to the op-fire. If I end the previous turn with my main gun disabled (in order to use only machine guns), I'm helpless against any enemy tank fire. If I leave the main gun enabled, tank fires HE rounds on infantry...

Paul Vebber -> (7/16/2001 3:19:00 AM)
USe "Opfire confirm" to disapprocve of teh AI's attempts to fire HE at infantry and save the shots for enemy tanks.

Monte -> (7/16/2001 10:19:00 AM)
I lost you, Paul. I am playing with "Op Fire confirm" option turned on, but (and I just double-checked my manual and tried it in the game) I can't see how can one disable main gun and fire only machine guns in op-fire? Is there some hidden command not explained in the manual? I tried hitting "C", and it does not work in op-fire menu...

Zeromus -> (7/16/2001 11:56:00 AM)
He meant that you shouldn't fire your tanks at infantry at all. - Z

Bonzo -> (7/16/2001 1:09:00 PM)
Save your tank fire for appropriate targets of oportunity & use your supporting infantry & machineguns to Opfire attacking infantry.

Monte -> (7/16/2001 1:39:00 PM)
GE tanks should not op-fire on enemy infantry? Wow... :eek: Germans usually deal with lots of enemy infantry. Giving up tank op-fire against infantry... sounds radical to me. I got impresion that the game engine allows only two op-fires on enemy unit that moves one hex. If your tanks are mixed with infantry... you lose your chance to op-fire on that moving enemy squad. Then again, you guys know what you're speaking about, and I should probably shut my mouth now. Time to try to use what I've learned so far. Thanks to all.

Reg -> (7/16/2001 2:48:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by Monte: I lost you, Paul. I am playing with "Op Fire confirm" option turned on, but (and I just double-checked my manual and tried it in the game) I can't see how can one disable main gun and fire only machine guns in op-fire? Is there some hidden command not explained in the manual? I tried hitting "C", and it does not work in op-fire menu... Right click on the unit to bring up the unit information screen and then left click on the green weapon name and the colour should change to red. The weapon is now disabled. The danger in this is that if an enemy tank appears you cannot turn your main gun back on until it is your turn again. However it is a useful way of firing all three machine guns at infantry and save your main gun ammunition. Don't forget to turn it back on again at the end of the turn (left click on it again). Reg.

AmmoSgt -> (7/16/2001 2:52:00 PM)
Monte I don't think anybody meant "never fire a german tank at infantry :) the AI moves in stages cycling thru the units several times ..and you usually have more MG shots than main gun shots ... just say no to the infantry target ,if you think armor type targets will be presenting itself a bit later, engage the armor with opfire when it presents itself so long as you have main gun shots .. then fire your remaining MG fire at the infantry once you no longer have main gun shots ... use any special opfire as you must to survive after that ... remember that your coax has a higher HE kill than most 37mm and most tanks don't fire the Coax beyond 6 hexes if the main gun still has shots, so let the infantry get in about 5 hexes before you opfire at them ... then even if you still have main gun shots you will get both the Main and the MG and the MG will also be more effective ... Always two parts to any fire fight ..killing the other guy , and staying alive, if you can soak off the other guys MG fire especially HMG fire with a Tank opfiring that has little chance of being hurt then your supporting infantry benefits from not facing unsuppressed return opfire when they opfire as the infantry gets closer ... you can also simplify you whole opfire situation by setting the ranges at which you different units will start asking to opfire .. different units have different ranges when they become more effective and regardless of the range you set , if they come under fire by an enemy units within your units range they generally get a chance to opfire in return ..any suppresion slows and possibly stops enemy infantry ..and that alone can be useful in seperateing the enemy infantry from the enemy armor ... and any armor unsuported by infantry is much easier to kill and is less likely to spot unspoted units ... something to think about ..also remember that even MG fire can cause armor to button up .. easiest way to kill a tank is to seperate it from it's infantry support, then button it up, then let the AI drive it blind and unsupported up on an engineer squad ...boom If you wish to disable the main gun for opfire, you have to do it before you end your turn .. right click on the unit and that will open the unit info screen , anything printed in green on that screen is adjustable in one way or another .. for the weapons , you just click on the one you do not wish to fire .. the letters will turn red indicating that it will not fire .. you can turn any weapon off and back on as often as you like as long as it is still your turn ..it's risky to turn off that main gun in case the AI has armor you didn't know was coming , because you can not turn it back on during the AI's turn ..only during your turn .. but experiment ..you can also set the units opfire range in the same way from the same screen, also set stance ect [ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ]

Mai Thai -> (7/16/2001 3:19:00 PM)
To monte: Welcome aboard, as you know the PzKfw IIIE main gun is not a good gun against both infantry and enemy armor. I suggest you to use PzKpfw II and PzKpfw I against enemy infantry, their guns are better for this kind of job and at least they are a bit more protected against inf. return fire if you leave them at least 5 hexes far. Remember to not leave your panzer without inf. covering them and against enemy armor and inf. the only effective weapon is the 88mm Flak, so don't forget to buy some in your core force. bye

panda124c -> (7/16/2001 7:40:00 PM)
The 37mm should be good (as in suppression) against crewed weapons, MGs, Mortars, Inf Guns, and AT Guns (slugging matches between tanks and AT Guns is not a good idea).

Tommy -> (7/16/2001 8:31:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by AmmoSgt: ... most tanks don't fire the Coax beyond 6 hexes if the main gun still has shots, so let the infantry get in about 5 hexes before you opfire at them ... then even if you still have main gun shots you will get both the Main and the MG and the MG will also be more effective ... [ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: AmmoSgt ] Monte, Most of what AmmoSgt says is good advice but watch out here, this statement is misleading. The tank will only fire the coax MG when the main gun has shots left --IF-- it passes a die roll. Only the best crews seem to be able to do this. So be warned; your AFV will probable rarely fire the coax MG and the main gun in the same turn. As you've noted, firing all MG is the best way to take care of the infantry. But also remember, the AI loves to soak off your AFV shots by dancing infantry in front of your tanks! Don't fall for it - AFV's should opfire at the infantry only as a last resort - save your ammo for the tanks which will move up last. You'll get plenty of chances to shoot the AVF guns at the infantry during the direct fire phase. Why? Because you've used your infantry rifles to "fix" (ie, pin down) the enemy infantry so that they are sitting ducks out in the open for your AFV's and mg in direct fire. Tommy [ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: Tommy ]

Larry Holt -> (7/16/2001 9:25:00 PM)
Its clear that MGs are more deadly than the 37mm HE round but here is a use for it. When I want to kill enemy infantry I want to use my infantry squad and separate MGs but I don't want them to receive effective return fire. I put my tanks behind my infanty. I use my main gun HE rounds, one or two rounds per enemy unit, to supress enemy infantry and lower the chances that they can return effective fire THEN I open up with my infantry. As an aside, I put my flak units behind my tanks and use them first to supress any enemy ATGs or ATRs first, then fire tanks to supress infantry then infantry MGs to kill infantry.

Monte -> (7/17/2001 2:21:00 AM)
Reg at all, My broken English is the cross of a sort here, but please read my postings on this topic once again. With all due respect, I know how to disable main gun and how to fire only MGs. It is the tendency to op-fire with HE rounds that I am trying to cope with. I might be newbie to the fine art of wargaming in SPWaW, but I am definitely not new to SP series. I owned all SSI titles from the start, and yesterday ordered my MC, thanks to Reg :). Let me try to illustrate my point with a counter-example. Think of the British tanks (except Matilldas, they are class on their own) of that era. They have no HE, so they always op-fire at infantry using their MGs. If you start from the assumption that 37 mm HE round is useless, British concept of not having HE rounds on tanks is a benefit, not disadvantage. That was a perverse thought for me. The discussion broadened, much to my liking, to the concept of MBT in early years in WWII, and what are the consequences of realistic modeling to the gameplay in 6.1. It is my understanding that Germans used their PzIII-class primarily as a weapon of terror in the enemy rear, most useful after the resistance line is broken. In SPWaW, you constantly find yourself in the situation to actually break that resistance line, not to exploit the breakthrough. With the realistic modeling of infantry, nobody dashes with his armor anymore. One can try ;), but it is not very healthy. For a guy who knew the original SP series as a "tankies game", I found myself in odd situation where I don't want early GE MBT's in my core force. CS Mark IVs, yes, even mark IIs are fine (due to rapid firing 20mm, as Mai Thai nicely pointed in his message), but not PzIIIs, Pz38s, Pz35s. From what I see, people think of that tank class as an anti-tank platform. Bonzo writes: quote: Save your tank fire for appropriate targets of oportunity... and first thing that crosses my mind is that "appropriate targets of opportunity" are all sorts of enemy vehicles. But Germans have their 88's as a supreme tank killing platform. With the cautious approach to fighting in 6.1, AT guns disadvantage that they can not fire in the same turn when disembarking from the transport is not all that important, anymore. Aggressive use of 88's becomes a tempting alternative to "MBT as a tank killer" concept. PzIIIe has its limits as an anti-tank platform, we all know them. I tried to solicit opinions about how good this class is in an infantry support role. And that is where Larry Holt, pbear, AmmoSgt contributed. They have a use for 37mm HE (enemy MG fire is very nice point). Unfortunately, there is no numerical expression for this damage, and one can not expect guys from Matrix to answer every odd question about the engine and the vast array of weapons modeled in this game. Are you guys also tempted to give up on PzIII class altogether and use other, specialized weapons instead? (Mark IVs for infantry support and to deal with tanks that don’t have cannon, 88’s for tank killing, etc.) I particularly like GE SPAAs for long range engagements against the ground targets. Precise weapon, highly mobile, lots of suppression against the infantry… and they come in handy if a flying kite :) shows on the battlefield in those early years of WWII...

gators -> (7/17/2001 4:43:00 AM)
But wasn't the doctrine to avoid tank vs tank, if possible, and use dedicated ATGs to deal with enemy armor.

Monte -> (7/17/2001 5:30:00 AM)
freyburg, That piece of military history is a bit unclear to me, and I will say a couple of words just to provoke somebody to teach me a lesson :). Who knows, it might be useful to others, as well. Most of the tanks in WWII felt victim to ATGs, air power and infantry, no doubt about that. But these are the early years of WWII, US Army is still out of the game. From what I know, USA was a single major nation that had a strong military doctrine prohibiting tanks fighting other tanks, if anyhow possible. Although I am not sure about the official doctrine, some conclusions can be drawn from characteristics of the equipment found on the battlefield. The most obvious example would be British. No HE rounds, only AP for the main gun. I would argue that a nation fielding such tanks is highly unlikely candidate for a strong believer in "avoid tank vs. tank battles at all cost" doctrine. Germans with their blitz-krieg tactics and emphasis on the rapid armor advance into the enemy rear are also questionable. If you trust forward with panzers, your ATGs can not keep up with the dynamics of the armored breakthrough. Latter in the war they did develop "tank killer" tanks, but it is unclear to me if their reliance on 88's in early years was something that was adopted from experience, or was a part of their doctrine about the tank use.

pbhawkin1 -> (7/17/2001 9:04:00 AM)
Monte, Just a thought. If you have your tanks (PzIII's) working in sections (1-3 tanks) in order to cover each other, ie overwatch, then why not try at the end of your turn (and depending on the tactical situation) turning off 1 or 2 main guns so that only the MG's will op-fire. This allows 1-2 tanks to engage enemy inf with their full weight of MG fire while having 1-2 tanks with available main gun to op-fire any enemy AFV's. They can also use their MG's if no AFV's appear, on the inf as well. Of course (as is usual) there is never enough resources to do everything that you want to do! :D

kao16 -> (7/17/2001 9:17:00 AM)
pbhawkins This sounds reasonable but..... how do you remember which ones have their main gun enabled/disabled. I often can't even remember which tank has been shooting at which tank when it comes to op-fire (sometimes the firing tank is outside the frame) - stopping changes of target that reduce/lose the accumulated accuracy gains of my previous firing turn.

Monte -> (7/17/2001 11:48:00 AM)
Kao16, there is a way to find that. Select the unit (any unit, works for infantry, as well) that you are interested in. Hit "T". Screen shows the last target that you fired (or op-fired) on. But don't press "N" to cycle through the targets, you will lose the benefit of the target acquisition from the previous turn. pbhawkings, that might not work as you expect it should. Game engine decides on its own which one of your units will be given a chance to op-fire, right? I think that those tanks with operational main gun have preference when it comes to op-fire...

panda124c -> (7/17/2001 6:37:00 PM)
Monte The Germans considered the Tank an anti-Infantry weapon and the AT gun as an anti-Tank weapon. The British considered the Tank an anti-Tank weapon therefore it did not need any HE rounds. For infantry support the used the 3" gunned CS tanks and the Germans used the 75L24 in various platforms. The Americans did not have a dedicated infantry support until the 105 Sherman, (this should cause some responses). The MK III is an excelent anti-infantry weapon due to it's three mgs. The Mk I is an excellent anti-infantry weapon but if you run into tanks the MK III is better because it can kill another tank as well as infantry. To demonstrate the effect of having a mg on your tank play some games with the Stum IIIb then when the e version (with the mg) is avaiable upgrade, you will see a radical increase in this vehicles effectivness. The 88 is a find gun but it is a very big target and is easy to spot. It was found to be an excellent AT gun during the Spanish Civil War. It was the only gun the Germans had to counter the very heavy tanks early in the war. Use it at long range 20+ hexes to keep the chance of it being spotted low. If you don't have one it make for a very interesting game to stalk KV-1s with engineers. As a side note, since I don't use the OpFire option I turn down the range on my tanks to about 5 so that if a unit gets that close the tank will op fire with main gun and mgs. This, of course, means that the tank will not fire at another tank over 5 hexes away. I adjust my tactics to compensate, by leaving my AT guns with a longer range setting since they are much harder to spot. Using the OpFire setting in the Preferences will give you more control over what targets your guns shoot at, you do loose your targeting advantage if you switch targets. I was under the impression that you could choose which weapon to fire in OpFire guess I was wrong. Hope this helps. [ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ] [ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ]

Tommy -> (7/17/2001 9:15:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by Monte: Reg at all, My broken English is the cross of a sort here, but please read my postings on this topic once again. With all due respect, I know how to disable main gun and how to fire only MGs. It is the tendency to op-fire with HE rounds that I am trying to cope with. ... Monte, I think we obscured the answer to this question with overly complex answers and suggestions. Your basic question: Can I stop my AFV from OP Firing on the Infantry with the main gun without disabling the main gun? Your basic answer: No. Tommy

Larry Holt -> (7/17/2001 10:05:00 PM)
My understanding of the German ATG role is that their tanks would be the primary AT weapon but if they ran into difficulity they could withdraw behind a ATG line which would then deal with enemy armor. The 88s were designed to have a secondary AT role, it was not just a field expedient. On the east front, they had so few units and their ATGs were so inadequate that they had to pull them into the rear areas to build a defense in depth and take flank/rear shots against Soviet armor. This left the infantry to fend for themselves and they developed and trained small antitank teams to use grenades, mines, etc. as the primary infantry tank defense.

Monte -> (7/17/2001 11:10:00 PM)
I might have overdone it, so it is time to make a statement about SPWaW. From all my messages left on this topic, one might draw conclusion that I am in the business of flaming SPWaW and Matrix effort. NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM TRUTH. I love what I see. It is wonderful. It is challenging, it is realistic, it gives a new life to already excellent SP concept (one of my favorite games ever, anyway), and I wouldn't argue if I didn't care. If it was not for the love affair :) with SPWaW, I would never come to this forum to say a word, simply because I don't have confidence in my language skills. Having said that, let me return to the subject of this topic. I already told you what stupid mistake I did, I planned to have a massive armor detachment in my core force. That's what "SP - the original" gamer would do. That's a serious mistake in SPWaW. I realized that quickly enough. But it would be cheating yourself if I gave up :). I clenched my teeth and tried to live with my decisions, even if it means ending up in coffin to pay for it. Reality of war. That’s what this thing is all about. That's why it is so addictive. Another reason why I decided to stay in campaign is that new feature in SPWaW, where you can freely upgrade any unit class to anything else. If I live long enough, I might have a chance to replace some of that armor with infantry to create more balanced force. I survived Poland, did extremely well in France and Low Countries, and had a lots of prestige points to upgrade my force. Now I am in the desert. If I was in Russia, my massive armor force would be slaughtered in no time. But I might just get away with it in desert, right? Wrong! Right now, I have 39 (!!!) PzIIIEs in my core force, and that is how I learned to hate my guts for having them. SPWaW is not a “tankies game” but it sure is a game of maneuver. And there are two parts in winning the maneuver game: use maneuver to position your forces where they are needed, and DENY your enemy a chance to maneuver his forces. I would argue that op-fire as a concept is crucial as a tool for denying maneuver to your enemy. Guess what, if you have massive PzIIIE in your force, it is not only your vulnerability of the armor playing against you, you are denied a chance to effectively use Op-Fire in desert. 37 mm HE is not only useless in desert, it is a gift to your enemy. You raise a cloud of dust and previously spotted infantry disappears from your sight. And why I am so loud about the Op-Fire? The very first scenario that I am playing in the desert is killing me. I call it “A thin red line”. It is “my advance against their delay” with British as opposing force. No mines, at least I haven’t seen them yet. British infantry has entrenched themselves in an unobstructed line that runs from North to South. You can’t bypass them. You have to punch a hole in that infantry wall. Long day for Afrika Korps. Their tanks are back, and by the turn 13 they are, more or less, gone. No Matilldas, none yet. But still you have one or two 2-pounders lurking on me from behind. I can not disable my PzIIIEs main guns. And what pbear (and previously AmoSgt) have suggested about restricting your op-fire, does not work in the desert. You need your main gun to suppress odd enemy tank that pops up from nowhere, every now and then. Every hex is a kill zone. Open and wide, desert is mercyless. When you are in the business of puncturing such a line of infantry, the most serious problem is spotting your enemy. Before you dig them out, you need to draw their fire and force them to reveal themselves. And no, scouts are not working against dug in British infantry. I tried slowly (one hex per turn) advancing my scouts, closely followed by panzers, so that panzers draw enemy fire. Doesn’t work. British see scouts first, every single unit fires at poor leg scouts with impunity. They ignore tanks :)!Ending situation: your scouts are routed, nobody saw a trace of the British. Back to the drawing board again. The only chance I got to fire at them is in op-fire. And most of my op-fires are given to PzIIIEs, since these bastards are most frequent units in my force. See how 37 mm HE is ruining my day? Tommy, I understood long time ago what is the principal answer to my question. But I enjoyed every word of discussion on this topic, really. It was nice reading, and I am grateful to all contributors. I am not trying to force Matrix to act about this. They said that 6.1 is the final version, and I respect that. I want them to concentrate on the new engine, to be honest. In addition, I am almost sure that it would be serious trouble to change fine tuned op-fire code to fix this 37mm HE issue. I am not asking for that. And I would not waste all this ink if it was not for the Mega Campaign that I am waiting for. Knowing what your weapon does and when is very important. Lots players will have to command PzIIIs in the MC, I suppose. In the desert!

kao16 -> (7/18/2001 7:13:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by Monte: Kao16, there is a way to find that. Select the unit (any unit, works for infantry, as well) that you are interested in. Hit "T". Screen shows the last target that you fired (or op-fired) on. But don't press "N" to cycle through the targets, you will lose the benefit of the target acquisition from the previous turn. Monte... This works in my turn, but what about during op-fire? AFAIK the only keys that the game detects during op-fire are the ones that say shoot/don't shoot.

Monte -> (7/18/2001 7:50:00 AM)
Sorry, kao16, I misunderstood you. Yeah, when op-firing, one does not know if he is loosing the benefit of previous target acquisition. I don’t have a solution for that. Op-fire control in SP engine is weak spot. But it is hard to imagine how can one add more control without adding a lot of complexity for guys who don’t care about op-fire all that much. The devil is in the balanced play of the game. God knows, we might have provided some food for thought for Matrix developers who are working on Squad Leader engine.

pbhawkin1 -> (7/19/2001 7:01:00 AM)
hi all, how useful are 37mm German Kannons? NOT VERY!! Yes, their HE is almost worthless, and their AP is little better!!! I am in the 2nd scenario of the MC and have just hit a Vickers Mk2 (max 8mm armour) six (yes 6 times) with 37mm AP and got 2 ricochetts (? spelling) a track hit, one penetrating hit (no damage) and two non-penetrating hits!! I suppose I should be gratefull that it was so suppressed that it allowed my airsupport to take it out 2 turns later!!

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