Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (Full Version)

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Fenarid -> Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/3/2021 8:23:10 PM)

I think we can all agree that diplomacy sucks in almost all 4X games.There is only one game that has a decent diplomacy system and that is Europa Universalis 4. Mainly thanks to the "trust" and "favors" system.

I would like to know what diplomacy looks like in DW2?



Galaxy227 -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/3/2021 10:59:56 PM)

Diplomacy is generally pretty weak in Distant Worlds, especially if you're using Europa Universalis as a point of reference. Off the top of my head, DW2 will see improvement in terms of the available economic treaties, coupled alongside an expanded set of interactions with independent colonies. One downside is pirates, where we take a step back from DW:U and lose some features associated with our lawless friends. Another misfortune is multilateral treaties, or the lack thereof. Both DW:U and DW2 are completely devoid of diplomacy involving three or more parties. You can kiss alliances goodbye.

Let's just put it like this: if there were a single area of Distant Worlds I could choose to be improved, it would be diplomacy. That, and more statistics. The game needs charts, damnit!



sinbuster -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/3/2021 11:38:37 PM)

EU4 does have a good system for the most part. I particularly like the coalition concept (if it ever worked properly) where Aggressive Expansion can result in quick action by the AI. However, it is pretty easy to keep AE under a certain threshold and expand rapidly anyway. The Bad Boy or AE system has been a central part of EU for a long time and it's an important component. You have a layer of diplomacy above the normal marriage/alliance system that reflects your growing power and other nations response to it. The same rules apply to the AI as well, which is as it should be.

I'm trying to remember if Stellaris uses the same favors system but it's been some time since I last played.



Staby_Mcstabman -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/4/2021 2:22:59 AM)

Yeah, Visualization should be overhauled especially trying to conquer civilizations with rowdy populations. EU4 has a great system although I think Total War: Three Kingdoms has the best. Even something simplified like Humankind would have been nice.



Fenarid -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/4/2021 4:54:44 AM)

Stellaris have trust and favors system, Paradox added it with Federations DLC.



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/4/2021 11:31:05 AM)

I would say the trust and favour system in Stellaris is really bad as it is just a point system where you wait the for clock to run and use resources to buy favour which then is used in a very "gamey" non dynamic way... let's hope we get nothing like that.

The system in EU4 is allot better...

A good Diplomacy system should be based on what you do and the cultural differences between different factions. Relationships also is not a black and white system and often include other parties as well. Diplomacy and relations forms large communities if there are more than two factions in contact with each other. Actions need to have consequences... good or bad... the player also need to find it very difficult to antagonize factions they have had good relations for a long time or other factions that have cultural similarities... players often have a bit too much power in most games in terms of deciding what relationships they want to have with their neighbours.



ncc1701e -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/4/2021 6:54:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fenarid

I would like to know what diplomacy looks like in DW2?


Excellent question!



arvcran2 -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/4/2021 7:18:48 PM)

There was a table top game called Diplomacy simpler than the game Risk. It was a simple system modeled on our world map. it was turn based and had two phases:

1. - diplomacy: every one had a 2 minute time slice to talk to each player and attempt to establish deals. Or something similar.
2. - action: Every one wrote down what they would do and it was revealed all at one - and played out on the map.



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/4/2021 9:17:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: arvcran2

There was a table top game called Diplomacy simpler than the game Risk. It was a simple system modeled on our world map. it was turn based and had two phases:

1. - diplomacy: every one had a 2 minute time slice to talk to each player and attempt to establish deals. Or something similar.
2. - action: Every one wrote down what they would do and it was revealed all at one - and played out on the map.


This was a very fun and to be fair difficult game. The game mechanic was really simple but your skill in diplomacy or deal making was quite significant, especially if you played the same people more than once so you would not dare screw someone over without masking it as some sort of mistake or that you were forced to change the deal for some reason... or you would have trouble the next time you played with that same person... fun memories indeed... :)



Gertjan -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/15/2021 8:59:56 AM)

Good question, I hope we get a dev diary on this important topic. Indeed alliances should be added to the game (e.g. like star trek, we want to be able to create a federation).



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/15/2021 4:38:40 PM)

I think they already said that diplomacy are very similar to DW1 and that is what they aim for at release and might improve on this later on down the line.



SirHoraceHarkness -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/15/2021 5:06:40 PM)

To me since this is a real time 4x space conquest game diplomacy is a secondary consideration to the conquest part. Yeah it would be nice to have some more options for alliances and such but when I play its not with sending diplomats to other empires in mind I want to explore and expand and exploit then finally exterminate. Diplomacy just gets in the way of that unless you want to lull an empire into thinking you are cool with them up to the point your massive fleets and clouds of troop transports descend upon them. [:'(]



Gertjan -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/16/2021 8:37:06 AM)

To each their own of course. I like to have more diplomacy options. But it is okay if it will be improved further down the line. I am now very eager to get the game ASAP.



SirHoraceHarkness -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/16/2021 4:36:58 PM)

Well it was stated that there are an expanded list of diplomacy options in the new game. We just don't know the exact details yet past no option for a multi empire alliance.



DrWolfsherz -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/16/2021 5:25:43 PM)

When thinking about good diplomacy, Alpha Centauri always comes to my mind. That was a fantastic system which was really involving.



SirHoraceHarkness -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/16/2021 5:35:01 PM)

Sins of a solar empire had some expanded diplomacy modes where you could win the game without a fight or keep the other empires at each others throats as you took over everything. They even did a dedicated expansion on it.



ncc1701e -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/16/2021 7:03:53 PM)

Yes, I will be glad to have some news on this topic.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/16/2021 7:42:20 PM)

We should be talking about Diplomacy about 3-4 Dev Diaries from now. [8D]



StormingKiwi -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/16/2021 8:21:59 PM)

So based on a 3 week cycle for dev diary releases, I guess that means DW2 is being released next year?



ncc1701e -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/16/2021 8:46:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

We should be talking about Diplomacy about 3-4 Dev Diaries from now. [8D]


Yeah

[image]local://upfiles/46661/9C9554C5EDF24BB19C0236C0D2C73D51.jpg[/image]



SirHoraceHarkness -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/16/2021 9:38:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: StormingKiwi

So based on a 3 week cycle for dev diary releases, I guess that means DW2 is being released next year?


Well if 4 more dev diary are all thats left that puts it right at the end of the year which is about when we are expecting it. Plus they might put them out faster as the game gets nearer to release. I suppose we will find out soon enough. ~shrugs~



USSAmerica -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/16/2021 11:54:02 PM)

My anniversary coupon should be ready at the end of October, so I'd like to request a release date just before Thanksgiving. [8D] [:D]



SirHoraceHarkness -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/17/2021 12:39:51 AM)

I'm assuming a $60 launch price so money put away and waiting as soon as the download links are active. [:)]



ncc1701e -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/17/2021 7:33:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

My anniversary coupon should be ready at the end of October, so I'd like to request a release date just before Thanksgiving. [8D] [:D]


End of November for me. [:)]



wetpig -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/20/2021 7:09:50 AM)

The more granular and in depth the diplomacy the better IMO. I take great delight in simply watching the universe tick over in Distant Worlds.

My favourite playstyle was as a smuggler in DW1 which didn't really involve much conquest (for me at least) except for the acquisition of strategic and luxury resources that the universe would then have to go through me to obtain. One of the things that annoyed me in DW1 was the fact that as a smuggler I was unable to make any meaningful long term agreements with an empire that would prevent hostilities between us (it would be amazing if there was some form of corporate playstyle akin to pirates eventually in DW2, start with just a base etc), I really enjoyed being a parasite on an empire without actually going to war with them this, however, was impossible to maintain in DW1 due to the only diplomatic option being "protection" which the AI would inevitably cancel (often only to accept it immediately again, but usually the damage would already be done). I know pirates aren't in DW2 (at least not at the start) but I'm using this as an example of the type of playstyles a solid diplomatic system could provide.

As a proper empire I also enjoyed playing as the rats (larger civ ships, cant remember their name) and obtaining mining rights with every empire I could to gain a hegemony over resources, which in turn gave me power over these empires, thanks to the economic simulation in dw this diplomatic option was very satisfying indeed watching as my mining ships became basically responsible for the resource needs of the other empires and it was profitable to boot. I appreciated that diplomatic option a lot.

So for me the more diplomatic options the better as I like to play the game more like a space empire simulator than a pure 4x.



SirHoraceHarkness -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (9/20/2021 2:19:58 PM)

I should add to my earlier comment that I do use the diplomacy options in DWU but not as a main game feature and more as a tool of conquest instead. Getting an empire you want to take over hooked on mining their resources from your own systems then when the time is right remove those rights and starve them out of minerals as they fight a war with some other empire you bribed into attacking them then once their ships are depleted declaring war yourself and wiping them out easily.



ncc1701e -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (10/11/2021 7:16:37 PM)

In terms of diplomacy, I really hope that treaties could be signed with a definition of some systems as a neutral zone between two empires.



martok -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (10/12/2021 11:38:45 PM)

^ That'd be great, in theory. In practice, however, I don't ever see that happening in a strategy game. The difficulty in coding such a feature (if it's even possible at all) would almost certainly require more time and/or effort than it'd be worth.




ncc1701e -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (10/13/2021 7:43:14 PM)

I think you are right. Just hoping for a good surprise. [;)]



wetpig -> RE: Can we talk a bit about diplomacy now? (10/14/2021 4:42:22 AM)

I hope we get multiplayer somewhere down the track, agreeing to arbitrary borders amongst friends then breaking the agreements and going to war anyway is always fun.



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