RE: GA (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2



Message


tyronec -> RE: GA (9/17/2021 2:47:49 PM)

quote:

On T1 I personally feel that Soviets should not intercept at all. But it may go bogus.
It means more planes destroyed on the ground but more pilots saved.

Currently it's almost a no brainer to keep German planes from bombing airfields and let the Soviets just fly en mass to suicide.

At the same time it allows a proper and not luck reliant airfield bombing in depth as well.

What kills were you getting without flying air base bombing ?




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: GA (9/17/2021 3:26:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

On T1 I personally feel that Soviets should not intercept at all. But it may go bogus.
It means more planes destroyed on the ground but more pilots saved.

Currently it's almost a no brainer to keep German planes from bombing airfields and let the Soviets just fly en mass to suicide.

At the same time it allows a proper and not luck reliant airfield bombing in depth as well.

What kills were you getting without flying air base bombing ?



If you look at the beginning of these two AAR's of mine you will see no airfield bombing and just auto-intercepting with fighters.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5054724

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4993481&mpage=2&key=





metaphore -> RE: GA (9/17/2021 3:33:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

On T1 I personally feel that Soviets should not intercept at all. But it may go bogus.
It means more planes destroyed on the ground but more pilots saved.

Currently it's almost a no brainer to keep German planes from bombing airfields and let the Soviets just fly en mass to suicide.

At the same time it allows a proper and not luck reliant airfield bombing in depth as well.

What kills were you getting without flying air base bombing ?



About 2,000-3,000 (Soviet pilots KIA) in previous versions, which is arguably a better result than destroying 4,000+ airframes on the ground with a lot less Soviet crew being killed. The rationale being that the Luftwaffe will suffer a very low attrition rate (op losses) from those interception (and lose only fighters), spending a lot less fuel and ammo.

Moreover, the largest part of the VVS is equiped with obsolete aircraft that will be dumped anyway... So why bother to destroy them by spending a lot of ressources doing so?

(*edit typos)




malyhin1517 -> RE: GA (9/17/2021 3:33:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

On T1 I personally feel that Soviets should not intercept at all. But it may go bogus.
It means more planes destroyed on the ground but more pilots saved.

It won't be right! Soviet aviation tried to repel German bombing! Moreover, it was on June 22, 1941 that the first ram of a German aircraft occurred!

Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov (October 8, 1909, Chizhovo village - June 22, 1941, Dubno) - Soviet military pilot, participant in the Polish campaign of the Red Army, Soviet-Finnish and World War II. Senior lieutenant.
By June 1941, he commanded a link of I-16 fighters of the 46th Fighter Aviation Regiment of the 14th Mixed Aviation Division of the Kiev Special Military District. Non-partisan.

On June 22, 1941, on the first day of the Great Patriotic War, in the skies over the Rivne region with his flight, he entered into battle with a group of German Heinkel-111 bombers from the KG55 Grif squadron. Having shot all the ammunition, he destroyed one of the enemy aircraft with a ram. It was one of the first air rams in the history of the Great Patriotic War. After a mid-air collision, it made an emergency landing near the village of Zagortsy. He died of his injuries and wounds in a hospital in the city of Dubno.

By the decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of August 2, 1941, Senior Lieutenant Ivanov Ivan Ivanovich was awarded the title of Hero of the Soviet Union posthumously.




metaphore -> RE: GA (9/17/2021 4:01:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

On T1 I personally feel that Soviets should not intercept at all. But it may go bogus.
It means more planes destroyed on the ground but more pilots saved.

It won't be right! Soviet aviation tried to repel German bombing! Moreover, it was on June 22, 1941 that the first ram of a German aircraft occurred!

Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov (October 8, 1909, Chizhovo village - June 22, 1941, Dubno) - Soviet military pilot, participant in the Polish campaign of the Red Army, Soviet-Finnish and World War II. Senior lieutenant.
By June 1941, he commanded a link of I-16 fighters of the 46th Fighter Aviation Regiment of the 14th Mixed Aviation Division of the Kiev Special Military District. Non-partisan.

On June 22, 1941, on the first day of the Great Patriotic War, in the skies over the Rivne region with his flight, he entered into battle with a group of German Heinkel-111 bombers from the KG55 Grif squadron. Having shot all the ammunition, he destroyed one of the enemy aircraft with a ram. It was one of the first air rams in the history of the Great Patriotic War. After a mid-air collision, it made an emergency landing near the village of Zagortsy. He died of his injuries and wounds in a hospital in the city of Dubno.

By the decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of August 2, 1941, Senior Lieutenant Ivanov Ivan Ivanovich was awarded the title of Hero of the Soviet Union posthumously.

I agree that it won't be right.
But how to reflect the appaling state of most Soviet frontline Regiments?
There were shortages everywhere: supplies, support, operational crews, operational aircraft, communications network (alert system), etc.

As far as I know, the main cause of wastage for the VVS, at the begining of Barbarossa was, by far, all those aircraft which were or became quickly not operational, then destroyed by their own crew before their airfield was overun by German ground forces. It was exactly the same in France during the 1940 campaign as the bombing of airfields by the Luftwaffe was at first largely ineffective.




loki100 -> RE: GA (9/17/2021 4:26:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

As I see it there are three aspects here:

AS has a bug and is not working against at least some GA. This should be resolved in a future patch. It does work against naval patrol.

Auto-intercept is not being triggered against some GA attacks. I think this is a design feature, it was raised as an issue a long time ago during testing but has never been recorded as a bug. It seems that the probability of an intercept is related to the distance the GA aircraft fly over enemy terrain. I don't know if range to the intercepting fighters air field is a factor. In practice this means that if you bomb far behind the enemy front line you may well be intercepted but if you only bomb front line units then you may be immune to interception.

The algorithm for intercepts looks to have been changed in recent patches. As reported by metaphore above and I also noticed that T1 long range air base bombings were being intercepted more often.


Losses for a Soviet air phase, some of the GA missions were on the front line, some a bit deeper. Yes the AI doesn't tailor its mission that well ... but yes I get a lot of interceptions.

I think, my fighters are all at well supplied airfields.

[image]local://upfiles/43256/B0885767CFC84F8F8CBEA49141B77E5B.jpg[/image]




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: GA (9/17/2021 4:26:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

On T1 I personally feel that Soviets should not intercept at all. But it may go bogus.
It means more planes destroyed on the ground but more pilots saved.

Currently it's almost a no brainer to keep German planes from bombing airfields and let the Soviets just fly en mass to suicide.

At the same time it allows a proper and not luck reliant airfield bombing in depth as well.

What kills were you getting without flying air base bombing ?



About 2,000-3,000 (Soviet pilots KIA) in previous versions, which is arguably a better result than destroying 4,000+ airframes on the ground with a lot less Soviet crew being killed. The rationale being that the Luftwaffe will suffer a very low attrition rate (op losses) from those interception (and lose only fighters), spending a lot less fuel and ammo.

Moreover, the largest part of the VVS is equiped with obsolete aircraft that will be dumped anyway... So why bother to destroy them by spending a lot of ressources doing so?

(*edit typos)


I have been doing the auto-intercept in a few of my AAR's as shown in a previous post in this thread. Yes, I did it to get more pilot losses but if done right you can get those through the course of the game pretty quickly. I am starting to come to a different understanding and bombing of the Soviet Bombers may have a better benefit long term by getting rid of the bombers early. So I have a new bombing technique I will be showing in my next AAR which I am sure "historical" people will have a problem with. 100% sure of it to be exact ;-) But it will open up a whole slew of "you shouldn't be able to do that". Standby for the AAR.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: GA (9/17/2021 4:30:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

As I see it there are three aspects here:

AS has a bug and is not working against at least some GA. This should be resolved in a future patch. It does work against naval patrol.

Auto-intercept is not being triggered against some GA attacks. I think this is a design feature, it was raised as an issue a long time ago during testing but has never been recorded as a bug. It seems that the probability of an intercept is related to the distance the GA aircraft fly over enemy terrain. I don't know if range to the intercepting fighters air field is a factor. In practice this means that if you bomb far behind the enemy front line you may well be intercepted but if you only bomb front line units then you may be immune to interception.

The algorithm for intercepts looks to have been changed in recent patches. As reported by metaphore above and I also noticed that T1 long range air base bombings were being intercepted more often.


Losses for a Soviet air phase, some of the GA missions were on the front line, some a bit deeper. Yes the AI doesn't tailor its mission that well ... but yes I get a lot of interceptions.

I think, my fighters are all at well supplied airfields.




Ya, supply, AD settings, and range matter. Supply is the big one early game. As my supply has increased in my game from turn 7 to turn 9 I have steadily intercepted more.




malyhin1517 -> RE: GA (9/17/2021 4:43:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore


quote:

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

On T1 I personally feel that Soviets should not intercept at all. But it may go bogus.
It means more planes destroyed on the ground but more pilots saved.

It won't be right! Soviet aviation tried to repel German bombing! Moreover, it was on June 22, 1941 that the first ram of a German aircraft occurred!

Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov (October 8, 1909, Chizhovo village - June 22, 1941, Dubno) - Soviet military pilot, participant in the Polish campaign of the Red Army, Soviet-Finnish and World War II. Senior lieutenant.
By June 1941, he commanded a link of I-16 fighters of the 46th Fighter Aviation Regiment of the 14th Mixed Aviation Division of the Kiev Special Military District. Non-partisan.

On June 22, 1941, on the first day of the Great Patriotic War, in the skies over the Rivne region with his flight, he entered into battle with a group of German Heinkel-111 bombers from the KG55 Grif squadron. Having shot all the ammunition, he destroyed one of the enemy aircraft with a ram. It was one of the first air rams in the history of the Great Patriotic War. After a mid-air collision, it made an emergency landing near the village of Zagortsy. He died of his injuries and wounds in a hospital in the city of Dubno.

By the decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of August 2, 1941, Senior Lieutenant Ivanov Ivan Ivanovich was awarded the title of Hero of the Soviet Union posthumously.

I agree that it won't be right.
But how to reflect the appaling state of most Soviet frontline Regiments?
There were shortages everywhere: supplies, support, operational crews, operational aircraft, communications network (alert system), etc.

As far as I know, the main cause of wastage for the VVS, at the begining of Barbarossa was, by far, all those aircraft which were or became quickly not operational, then destroyed by their own crew before their airfield was overun by German ground forces. It was exactly the same in France during the 1940 campaign as the bombing of airfields by the Luftwaffe was at first largely ineffective.

On the first day of the war, June 22, the Luftwaffe lost 69 combat aircraft on the Eastern Front. For 27 days of fighting from June 22 to July 19, 1941, German aviation lost 1284 aircraft of all types, which was more than two months of fighting in the "Battle of England"

In many Soviet books and documents, the losses of the Red Army Air Force for June 22, 1941 are usually estimated at 1200 aircraft, and it is indicated that most of them were destroyed on the ground {169}. At the same time, the factor of surprise is very often emphasized. For example, a former employee of the Air Force headquarters M.N.Kozhevnikov named among the main reasons the fact that the telegram of the NKO, in which the commanders of military districts were warned of the time of a possible attack by Nazi Germany, gave orders to bring the troops to combat readiness and to disperse aviation to field airfields. , was transferred to the border districts only 4 hours before the invasion {170}.

Of course, the surprise factor played a role. Some of the pilots and commanders rested that Sunday morning, others were outside their units. At the same time, among the Soviet pilots, especially those who fought in Spain, many understood that war could not be avoided, and expected an attack [147] by Germany. For all of them, the nature of the air war, which the Luftwaffe imposed on us from the first hours, was unexpected. How did it manifest itself?

First of all, the Germans proved to be very persistent in achieving their goals. So, in the 10th garden, the first blow caught by surprise only the 74th captain of Major BM Vasiliev. The rest of the regiments managed to disperse the material part. The 123rd IAP suffered the main losses during the fifth raid, and the 33rd IAP - during the fourth. In the latter case, the nine Bf109 managed to deceive the vigilance of the VNOS posts, sneaking up at an extremely low altitude, and burned 21 I-16s and 5 I-153s in a 40-minute attack. The regiment has lost its combat capability {171}.

The tactics of the German aviation consisted of alternating attacks on airfields by fighters and bombers in small and medium groups, depending on the Soviet opposition. And since many airfields did not have any air defense systems at all, and others had one or two anti-aircraft machine guns, there were no [148] elementary shelters for the flight and technical personnel, the aircraft were everywhere crowded and not camouflaged, the Luftwaffe acted very effectively and with almost impunity. As already noted, the airfield of the 122nd iap near Lida was subjected to four raids by German bombers (in one case fighter-bombers operated) without any fighter cover {172}. The air victories announced on this day by the regiment's pilots raise serious doubts.

A very significant factor that influenced the sharp decline in the combat effectiveness of the Air Force was the loss of control in most areas in the district (army) air force - aviation formations, units. The situation was especially bad on the Western Front, where the front air force headquarters was practically inactive during the first three (!) Days of the war. Many commanders of air regiments assigned tasks to their subordinates to conduct combat operations without coordination with the higher headquarters {173}.

There was no general plan for the withdrawal of units from the blow. Under these conditions, not all commanders made decisions that were appropriate to the current situation, tried to maneuver their forces on that fateful day. But they also failed, as it turned out that the enemy was well aware of the location of our base and alternate airfields, as well as field sites near the border. Therefore, those units that were able to relocate on June 22 suffered no less than the rest.

We have already noted that at many Soviet airfields (primarily in the Western OVO) at a distance of 12-50 km from the state border there were approximately 100 aircraft [149], which was caused by the retraining of flight personnel for new materiel. Even in those cases when the air regiment had a staff of 62 aircraft, the placement of all this equipment on one site made the basing very tense. Let us add to what has been said that belated and not always sufficient measures to camouflage airfields did not allow us to protect our vehicles placed with lines from air attacks. The lack of reliable means of controlling units at a distance (radio) and the skills to use them did not allow the regiment to be located at several airfields.




metaphore -> RE: GA (9/17/2021 11:46:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

On T1 I personally feel that Soviets should not intercept at all. But it may go bogus.
It means more planes destroyed on the ground but more pilots saved.

Currently it's almost a no brainer to keep German planes from bombing airfields and let the Soviets just fly en mass to suicide.

At the same time it allows a proper and not luck reliant airfield bombing in depth as well.

What kills were you getting without flying air base bombing ?



About 2,000-3,000 (Soviet pilots KIA) in previous versions, which is arguably a better result than destroying 4,000+ airframes on the ground with a lot less Soviet crew being killed. The rationale being that the Luftwaffe will suffer a very low attrition rate (op losses) from those interception (and lose only fighters), spending a lot less fuel and ammo.

Moreover, the largest part of the VVS is equiped with obsolete aircraft that will be dumped anyway... So why bother to destroy them by spending a lot of ressources doing so?

(*edit typos)


I have been doing the auto-intercept in a few of my AAR's as shown in a previous post in this thread. Yes, I did it to get more pilot losses but if done right you can get those through the course of the game pretty quickly. I am starting to come to a different understanding and bombing of the Soviet Bombers may have a better benefit long term by getting rid of the bombers early. So I have a new bombing technique I will be showing in my next AAR which I am sure "historical" people will have a problem with. 100% sure of it to be exact ;-) But it will open up a whole slew of "you shouldn't be able to do that". Standby for the AAR.


Hi,
Actually, with chance of interception halved, this will compromise the previous "Über-Interceptor" method. I'm also suspecting what you are planning to do as I've made a lot of testing on this matter. Even if it's historically "ugly", it's fair to use it when it's allowed by the game mechanics - the devs will probably fix it if they don't like it, as they did for Interception abuse.

My personnal feeling is that the scale, time and space of the ground war doesn't match those of the air war (same for naval ops to a lesser degree) and something much more abstract should be modeled for the air battles instead of having to deal with such a level of detail.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: GA (9/18/2021 2:29:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

On T1 I personally feel that Soviets should not intercept at all. But it may go bogus.
It means more planes destroyed on the ground but more pilots saved.

Currently it's almost a no brainer to keep German planes from bombing airfields and let the Soviets just fly en mass to suicide.

At the same time it allows a proper and not luck reliant airfield bombing in depth as well.

What kills were you getting without flying air base bombing ?



About 2,000-3,000 (Soviet pilots KIA) in previous versions, which is arguably a better result than destroying 4,000+ airframes on the ground with a lot less Soviet crew being killed. The rationale being that the Luftwaffe will suffer a very low attrition rate (op losses) from those interception (and lose only fighters), spending a lot less fuel and ammo.

Moreover, the largest part of the VVS is equiped with obsolete aircraft that will be dumped anyway... So why bother to destroy them by spending a lot of ressources doing so?

(*edit typos)


I have been doing the auto-intercept in a few of my AAR's as shown in a previous post in this thread. Yes, I did it to get more pilot losses but if done right you can get those through the course of the game pretty quickly. I am starting to come to a different understanding and bombing of the Soviet Bombers may have a better benefit long term by getting rid of the bombers early. So I have a new bombing technique I will be showing in my next AAR which I am sure "historical" people will have a problem with. 100% sure of it to be exact ;-) But it will open up a whole slew of "you shouldn't be able to do that". Standby for the AAR.


Hi,
Actually, with chance of interception halved, this will compromise the previous "Über-Interceptor" method. I'm also suspecting what you are planning to do as I've made a lot of testing on this matter. Even if it's historically "ugly", it's fair to use it when it's allowed by the game mechanics - the devs will probably fix it if they don't like it, as they did for Interception abuse.

My personnal feeling is that the scale, time and space of the ground war doesn't match those of the air war (same for naval ops to a lesser degree) and something much more abstract should be modeled for the air battles instead of having to deal with such a level of detail.


I just tested the "Interceptor" method today on just the Southern Front Turn 1 and it still works just fine from my quick observations. I am not using the "Interceptor" method with my next AAR "Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow. I am introducing something different in that game.

I personally love the detail in the Air game & haven't even scratched the surface on using it fully yet. But that is just me and I know many would love the abstraction.




metaphore -> RE: GA (9/18/2021 11:41:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

On T1 I personally feel that Soviets should not intercept at all. But it may go bogus.
It means more planes destroyed on the ground but more pilots saved.

Currently it's almost a no brainer to keep German planes from bombing airfields and let the Soviets just fly en mass to suicide.

At the same time it allows a proper and not luck reliant airfield bombing in depth as well.

What kills were you getting without flying air base bombing ?



About 2,000-3,000 (Soviet pilots KIA) in previous versions, which is arguably a better result than destroying 4,000+ airframes on the ground with a lot less Soviet crew being killed. The rationale being that the Luftwaffe will suffer a very low attrition rate (op losses) from those interception (and lose only fighters), spending a lot less fuel and ammo.

Moreover, the largest part of the VVS is equiped with obsolete aircraft that will be dumped anyway... So why bother to destroy them by spending a lot of ressources doing so?

(*edit typos)


I have been doing the auto-intercept in a few of my AAR's as shown in a previous post in this thread. Yes, I did it to get more pilot losses but if done right you can get those through the course of the game pretty quickly. I am starting to come to a different understanding and bombing of the Soviet Bombers may have a better benefit long term by getting rid of the bombers early. So I have a new bombing technique I will be showing in my next AAR which I am sure "historical" people will have a problem with. 100% sure of it to be exact ;-) But it will open up a whole slew of "you shouldn't be able to do that". Standby for the AAR.


Hi,
Actually, with chance of interception halved, this will compromise the previous "Über-Interceptor" method. I'm also suspecting what you are planning to do as I've made a lot of testing on this matter. Even if it's historically "ugly", it's fair to use it when it's allowed by the game mechanics - the devs will probably fix it if they don't like it, as they did for Interception abuse.

My personnal feeling is that the scale, time and space of the ground war doesn't match those of the air war (same for naval ops to a lesser degree) and something much more abstract should be modeled for the air battles instead of having to deal with such a level of detail.


I just tested the "Interceptor" method today on just the Southern Front Turn 1 and it still works just fine from my quick observations. I am not using the "Interceptor" method with my next AAR "Tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow. I am introducing something different in that game.

I personally love the detail in the Air game & haven't even scratched the surface on using it fully yet. But that is just me and I know many would love the abstraction.


Hi HardLuckYetAgain,
I personnaly love the detail too... if the resulting model seems right (my own taste is accurate and immersive). So far, I find it relatively poor on my "rightometer" scale (I appreciate nonetheless all the effort put into it).

What version of the game are you actually playing? I've noticed the change after updating from 1.1.03beta to 1.1.09beta. Anyway, I need to do further methodical testing with the same sequence played like 3 times for each version, then, I'll bring back the results.




metaphore -> RE: GA (9/20/2021 12:33:13 PM)

Hi,
I've found the time to run auto-interception tests on T1 and the result confirm the change, but looking into it more closely, the results are not showing what I expected (a reduction of the auto-interception chance).

I did not keep the install file for the previous public beta, so I downloaded v.1.00.11 to compare with v.1.01.09beta. During my previous tests, I've never noticed any change until the latest public patch. There is nothing noted about it either in the Patch notes.

The test I've made is easy to reproduce on whatever version of the game:
1. Start a new campaign game (default settings)
2. Delete all Air Directives
3. Run Air Missions (empty)
4. Make a save file
5. From the starting position, regardless of the odds, attack every single Soviet frontline unit once, from North to South, (there is no visible effect on air Battles if it's a success or failure, a hasty or deliberate attack)
6. Record the results
7. Quit and Reload the save.

RESULTS*________ v.1.00.11_____ v.1.01.09b
(Soviet)
Air Losses:_________ 2,635______1,661
Air Combat:_________ 2,584______1,599
Pilot KIA:__________ 2,514______1,509

(*Those results have been averaged from several tries - there is globally very few variation between them)

As to what caused this drop of 40% efficiency of auto-interception, we'll have to look for a few clues into those Commander Reports

Exhibit 1. 33% less Soviet aircraft commited : they are sending less aircraft (v.1.01.09b) than before (v.1.00.11) in their Defensive Air Strikes, sustaining overall less losses. Less interceptors also on the German side -> The AI is sending proportional forces to intercept (and this may be capped by other factors like range, number avail., supply) - but in this test, all others factors would be equal.

AIRCRAFT COMMITED*________ v.1.00.11_____ v.1.01.09b
(Soviet)
Bomber + Fighter__________4,583___________3,053

(*Those results have been averaged from several tries - figures may vary much more between two tests; in this case, I've recorded 450+ var. for early version and 250+ for last patch)


Exhibit 2. More Defensive Ground Support with Bombers are NOT auto-intercepted in the last beta. Simply said, the rate of bomber interception was 100% for the early game tests but it's not the case anymore. On each test run on the beta, I've recorded strikes, amongst those including bombers, going thru without triggering any air battle.

Nonetheless, there is also a good number of Defensive Ground Support triggered without a single bomber on it and those, on both version, are NEVER intercepted (They don't cause any damage either :). Let's then pretend that German metric radar is so good that they can tell the difference between a flight of the same Figher-Bombers with payload -> bombers => Interception, and another one without -> CAP => DO NOT INTERCEPT!

I don't have time for compiling further details and numbers. So, in final, just be aware that auto-interception is quite a complex piece of code and changing a single parameter in your ADs could result in some very unexpected things (like YHLA showed on his late AAR). I can tell myself that there are more loopholes than that and I really doubt that the whole system is actually "Working as Designed".




tyronec -> RE: GA (9/21/2021 8:50:43 AM)

quote:

I don't have time for compiling further details and numbers. So, in final, just be aware that auto-interception is quite a complex piece of code and changing a single parameter in your ADs could result in some very unexpected things (like YHLA showed on his late AAR). I can tell myself that there are more loopholes than that and I really doubt that the whole system is actually "Working as Designed".

Would concur that auto intercept is a complex area of the game. It's interaction with GS is difficult enough. It's interaction with GA is critical. As far as I can see most Soviet players are not using GA to it's maximum potential - mass bombings of individual units on the front line followed up by ground combat to force a retreat - which is just as well because given that intercept is not working fully I think this tactic unbalances the game.




AlbertN -> RE: GA (9/21/2021 10:38:11 AM)

@Tyronec - I do not believe that is an issue of intercept. In many turns of the Axis their spearheads can well be outside the range of the Bf109s, and even if intercepting works well enough, the Soviets simply bomb out of Luftwaffe air cover. By how the game is, presently, to rebase Bf109 forward -and- then air supply them is a limited way to go. That where there are airfields in range. But I dare say thta the issue here is not much the 'bombing' the Soviets do, more so the concerted attacks they can pull off.




tyronec -> RE: GA (9/21/2021 11:15:48 AM)

quote:

@Tyronec - I do not believe that is an issue of intercept. In many turns of the Axis their spearheads can well be outside the range of the Bf109s, and even if intercepting works well enough, the Soviets simply bomb out of Luftwaffe air cover. By how the game is, presently, to rebase Bf109 forward -and- then air supply them is a limited way to go. That where there are airfields in range. But I dare say thta the issue here is not much the 'bombing' the Soviets do, more so the concerted attacks they can pull off.

That is the question I have been puzzling about since starting this thread a week ago.
My experience in the two games I am playing is that intercepts are not happening, specifically in the one I am Axis there are fighters within range on supplied air bases and 100's of Soviet GA attacks going in with no intercept.
I set up a test bed to check it out and the Soviets can even destroy fighters on the ground on supplied air bases.
Yes, intercepts are happening on occasions but what the criteria are I don't know. If I don't know how to get intercepts to work I don't know how to play the game to give Axis any chance against a Soviet opponent who is making good use of GA.




loki100 -> RE: GA (9/21/2021 11:25:41 AM)

current turn, lots of interceptions where the AI does GA missions.

I can give turn after turn examples of exactly why auto-intercept works as designed, incl hitting front line raids as well deeper missions (& some at range to my airbases)

Triggered by fighters with good supply at their base (& a bit of experimenting with the underlying AS mission parameters). Remember that auto-intercept uses your basic AS rules.

I'd agree with AlbertN here, you can't (& the Germans didn't) solve the problem of how to keep air cover over their spearheads - read the stuff by Stahel on how disruptive the VVS was as a result. The flaw is the massed organised bombing raids which simply didn't happen ( & were beyond the VVS' capacity to deliver).

[image]local://upfiles/43256/EF81761513C8410484544CE866C7264E.jpg[/image]


quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore
...
I don't have time for compiling further details and numbers. So, in final, just be aware that auto-interception is quite a complex piece of code and changing a single parameter in your ADs could result in some very unexpected things (like YHLA showed on his late AAR). I can tell myself that there are more loopholes than that and I really doubt that the whole system is actually "Working as Designed".



Your claim really isn't supported by your data. It also seems you are mixing up AD design with auto-intercept (which is outside the AD system).

Also auto-intercept works differently when it interactions with GA style missions compared to GS




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: GA (9/21/2021 11:42:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


I'd agree with AlbertN here, you can't (& the Germans didn't) solve the problem of how to keep air cover over their spearheads - read the stuff by Stahel on how disruptive the VVS was as a result. The flaw is the massed organised bombing raids which simply didn't happen ( & were beyond the VVS' capacity to deliver).



[image]local://upfiles/43256/EF81761513C8410484544CE866C7264E.jpg[/image]


Show me a picture from early game for your fighter interception. Later in the war of course your interception is going to be good. My average is about 1 in 7 bombing raids if I had to guess on interception on GA. When I do intercept and there are Soviet fighters there I get eaten alive too :(

The mass bombings is a bit off the charts. I thought Soviet bombers were used for mostly ground support?







HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: GA (9/21/2021 12:02:59 PM)

BTW I am getting intercepts with improved supply. BUT.... If this rate keeps up you will have Soviet fighters on Par and exceeding German fighter experience. I guess that is true to life too? Sounds like it from others posting on the forums.

Curious do you get experience just for flying missions? Like if you just ran AS missions over and over again every turn what is the likelihood of gaining experience on your pilots?

[image]local://upfiles/53556/A70D709B1FEB4D379BDFAB7B715B5930.jpg[/image]




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: GA (9/21/2021 12:04:45 PM)

Another interception this turn. The 5 losses for the Soviets were flak, lol.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/7198A2C3560648C38B854176B3BAA10C.jpg[/image]




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: GA (9/21/2021 12:07:31 PM)

Another Auto intercept. So yeah, my problem was supply.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/C06C3AAB03A3415BB2FBF2DB6F4B8B32.jpg[/image]




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: GA (9/21/2021 12:11:10 PM)

Releated but not related. What is the quickest way to get air support on an airbase? I figure prime it the turn before by sitting recon on the field then bring in the fighters the next turn. But I am at the point where I believe I put too many aircraft in reserve and my air support for the bases left too. (I wish there was a button to bring them in immediately )




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: GA (9/21/2021 12:12:34 PM)

Also can we fix the Minor countries air units in Axis Reserves and Soviet Garrison? I can't get mine out of the vicious circle of not coming to the map once place in either of those two boxes :(




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: GA (9/21/2021 12:19:07 PM)

These are at the end of my range but did not intercept. Which makes sense to me. Seems the Soviets are running the bombing campaign a bit too hot. The Soviets bombing losses from pretty much just bombing is getting pretty high. They may need a rest I think.

Anyway that brings me to my next question. What is round number to go by for Soviet TAC and bomber replacement rate I could go by? I know IL2's are astronomical.

But yeah, auto interceptions are starting to work for me with better supply. Now trying to convert rail hexes in a partisan controlled area is yet another adversity to overcome :(

[image]local://upfiles/53556/17AE4093BFAB4EA4AEE02792D147F374.jpg[/image]




loki100 -> RE: GA (9/21/2021 12:34:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
...

Show me a picture from early game for your fighter interception. Later in the war of course your interception is going to be good. My average is about 1 in 7 bombing raids if I had to guess on interception on GA. When I do intercept and there are Soviet fighters there I get eaten alive too :(

The mass bombings is a bit off the charts. I thought Soviet bombers were used for mostly ground support?



I'm not arguing I could get that early game - which is the point. There is a lot of noise that auto-intercept is broken, its not it works exactly as it should. Well supplied fighters will intercept pretty much at range, poorly supplied fighters struggle.

Think of it this way. An airbase with plenty of fuel can scramble on the possibility that this time its for real, one lacking fuel etc has to be damn sure its identified a real raid. You can map the varying response of the RAF during the Battle of Britain onto this distinction.

AFAIK, you get experience either by training (in reserve, not resting, exp<NM)or via pilot wins. Not sure you get anything for just flying around?

which indirectly leads to an answer on this

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Also can we fix the Minor countries air units in Axis Reserves and Soviet Garrison? I can't get mine out of the vicious circle of not coming to the map once place in either of those two boxes :(


all I can do is report what I see. I make no claims to competence at the game, I'm certainly doing nothing special to get the results I report.

so, have no idea why you can't so here we are. Open a random air base, select a Hungarian bomber AOG and I can bring Hungarian LB to the map ... 3 clicks and there they are

[image]local://upfiles/43256/D6CE064AED4945FBB7FC38A04F745623.jpg[/image]

edit: and as above (& I realise you aren't doing this), muddling up AS/AD, auto-intercept-GS and auto-intercept-GA really doesn't help understanding

edit 2: from Stahel's work using German combat diaries, interdiction was the main thing the VVS did in 1941. In our terms the German's over-reacted, there are reports of Pzr regiments deploying off road when threatened by a few SB-2s. Oddly I think the VVS abandoned this as it retrained in early 1942 to focus more closely on battlefield support, certainly by 1943 it seems they mostly (in game turns) ran GS.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: GA (9/21/2021 12:34:37 PM)

Air interception in the North I didn't intercept NOTHING even though there were 5 Recon missions and/or bombing missions in the area within easy range. These fighters haven't flown in many turns against anything :( My numbers on the base are fine. It is as if the Germans have the Soviet table for interception....

Is the Air support experience really that low for the Germans? A 48? What is the Soviets?

[image]local://upfiles/53556/39A2CC7AB3944D86BF7A85624040391C.jpg[/image]




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: GA (9/21/2021 12:37:45 PM)

My rumanian Air support is through the roof. Maybe because it has been in place forever. WTF.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/C1E7FF29FEA945FBBA1098C5E6966929.jpg[/image]




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: GA (9/21/2021 12:40:20 PM)

Even a Rumanian base I occupied 2 turns ago after vacating it is better than the German Smolensk Air base Air Support.... Something can't be right on German Air support experience :( I have had the air base in Smolensk for many turns now :(

[image]local://upfiles/53556/6AA62582440C45648A4B5F94CC83E038.jpg[/image]




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: GA (9/21/2021 12:44:31 PM)

Ya, something can't be right on Air support Experience for Germans, a 43 :(

[image]local://upfiles/53556/EBF1E192EECC4886B461985E2D77D69D.jpg[/image]




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: GA (9/21/2021 12:47:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
...

Show me a picture from early game for your fighter interception. Later in the war of course your interception is going to be good. My average is about 1 in 7 bombing raids if I had to guess on interception on GA. When I do intercept and there are Soviet fighters there I get eaten alive too :(

The mass bombings is a bit off the charts. I thought Soviet bombers were used for mostly ground support?



I'm not arguing I could get that early game - which is the point. There is a lot of noise that auto-intercept is broken, its not it works exactly as it should. Well supplied fighters will intercept pretty much at range, poorly supplied fighters struggle.

Think of it this way. An airbase with plenty of fuel can scramble on the possibility that this time its for real, one lacking fuel etc has to be damn sure its identified a real raid. You can map the varying response of the RAF during the Battle of Britain onto this distinction.

AFAIK, you get experience either by training (in reserve, not resting, exp<NM)or via pilot wins. Not sure you get anything for just flying around?

which indirectly leads to an answer on this

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Also can we fix the Minor countries air units in Axis Reserves and Soviet Garrison? I can't get mine out of the vicious circle of not coming to the map once place in either of those two boxes :(


all I can do is report what I see. I make no claims to competence at the game, I'm certainly doing nothing special to get the results I report.

so, have no idea why you can't so here we are. Open a random air base, select a Hungarian bomber AOG and I can bring Hungarian LB to the map ... 3 clicks and there they are

[image]local://upfiles/43256/D6CE064AED4945FBB7FC38A04F745623.jpg[/image]

edit: and as above (& I realise you aren't doing this), muddling up AS/AD, auto-intercept-GS and auto-intercept-GA really doesn't help understanding

edit 2: from Stahel's work using German combat diaries, interdiction was the main thing the VVS did in 1941. In our terms the German's over-reacted, there are reports of Pzr regiments deploying off road when threatened by a few SB-2s. Oddly I think the VVS abandoned this as it retrained in early 1942 to focus more closely on battlefield support, certainly by 1943 it seems they mostly (in game turns) ran GS.


Oh, THANK YOU. No I haven't tried that let me try real quick since I was just trying it from the TB boxes only. Why didn't anyone say anything? :(




Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
2.625