Help with station design vs fighters (Full Version)

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Varlun -> Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 5:16:54 PM)

Hey everyone. So I'm playing with the Beyond Extended Universe mod. I have already tried using Google and looking up other threads of people talking about this. I have tried several things already. I've got a game going which I'm just using to experiment with. I have a station that's under constant attack by carrier fleets, and I've been retrofitting it over and over with different things, trying to find anything that's effective vs fighters. Pretty much everything I've tried, I've used the highest tech version of whatever that thing is. The first thing I tried was just a ton of point defense. I have 100 point defense and it seems like that's barely able to deal with a single carrier. I had to put a ridiculous 250 shield modules (again, max tech) for it to finally be able to stand up to 2 or 3 carriers. I've tried 3 different kinds of area weapons (all of them), the gravitic weapons... I have 50 fighter bays. I'm just really struggling to come up with anything that's actually really effective. Missiles seem to miss the carriers 90% of the time. Yes, max tech missiles with max target tracking. I've tried tractor beams... I just don't know anymore. Can I please get some help?



SirHoraceHarkness -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 6:10:32 PM)

Have you tried building lots of defense bases filled with point defense in addition to their offensive weapons? I usually queue up six to twelve of them if the planet is going to be a target of rival empire aggression. If you have the economy to support it you can build defense bases so thick around your chosen planets that they can fend off huge fleets all on their own. Highest I've stacked them was 120 since you want to lay them out in multiples of six to keep the symmetry with no gaps in defense.



Varlun -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 6:19:45 PM)

Hmm no I haven't messed with the defense bases. I've just been trying to design a single OP space port. One problem I've run into is that tractor beams will only pull things in to the edge of your model/selection circle. So if you have a huge circle, i.e. a massive space station, then it won't pull them in very close, and thus things such as rail guns don't work very well. So yeah, I can see how having a smaller space port supplemented with smaller defensive stations could make more effective use of those weapons. However, enemy fighters tend to focus one target at a time, so if it isn't incredibly beefy then it's just going to get deleted. I just can't find a way to effectively counter the massive swarms of enemy fighters.



Varlun -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 6:32:06 PM)

Right now I'm trying to figure out what will even effectively do damage, to anything. I have a lot of hours in this game (609), but these carrier swarms have always been the bane of my existence.

So far it seems like my fighters are the only things really doing effective damage. I've tried 100 rail guns, 100 phasers, don't seem to be doing much of anything. I have actually removed my fighters to make it easier to tell what my other weapons are doing.



Varlun -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 6:33:58 PM)

I mean 100 of anything is already completely overkill, right? Do I need to stack even more?



Varlun -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 6:47:49 PM)

I tell you what, 500 Terminator AutoCannons is doing an absolute number to those fighters! I guess I just needed more of them. That's an absolutely absurd number though. It takes 30 hyperfusion reactors to power this base. I just watch the fuel fall as it operates lol



SirHoraceHarkness -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 6:49:11 PM)

Make custom bases with only the the minimum of equipment to operate as in only one docking bay etc then stack in lots of shields and armor and weapons. The longer you can extend the time to kill a base the longer your other defenses have of thinning the fighters and more importantly the carriers themselves to a manageable level. That super station you are making should be able to float out its shields to ridiculous levels too just make sure to prune back other non combat systems so it doesn't take forever to upgrade or build in the first place.



SirHoraceHarkness -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 6:53:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Varlun

I tell you what, 500 Terminator AutoCannons is doing an absolute number to those fighters! I guess I just needed more of them. That's an absolutely absurd number though. It takes 30 hyperfusion reactors to power this base. I just watch the fuel fall as it operates lol


The ai isn't the best at creating effective designs and you can always make something better for a specific task. I tend to make super capital ships for a core hammer invasion fleet that have up to three times as many shields and weapons as an ai fit. They are also super expensive to build and maintain but well worth it in its specific role of smashing homeworld defenses. The rest of the fleet can get by with ai builds.



Varlun -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 6:54:00 PM)

Well, my space ports are like 95% combat oriented at this point. I have 10 docking bays and 25 construction yards, small change compared to everything else I have on them. I'm not really concerned about that. I'm just glad I'm actually getting somewhere with the point defense. I'm continuing my experiments with other weapon types to see how different things work. I'm gonna try the area weapons again but based on what I saw before, they don't seem to have any effect on fighters whatsoever. Like the graviton beams and stuff, won't even target fighters.



SirHoraceHarkness -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 6:58:35 PM)

Only point defense can damage fighters. You need to concentrate on long range main weapons to take out the carriers and the best one of the bunch is max tech plasma thunderbolts. Heavy energy usage but is an instant delete button at short range and in massed fire it can quickly take down even capital ships at range. One of my favorite skirmisher ships are fast cruisers with plasma thunderbolts. Fast enough to kite capitals and with enough defense and firepower to wipe out lower classes by simply overrunning them.



Varlun -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 6:59:34 PM)

I've just noticed something else! The speed you're running the game at has an effect on projectile accuracy. Specifically the point defense. If I run it at normal speed, it absolutely destroys the fighters. But if I bump it up faster, those fighters just keep flying through my station.



SirHoraceHarkness -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 7:06:09 PM)

Ah forgot about simulation speed. Doh.. Yeah 2x and 4x time can certainly screw up combat and make it seem like your ships can't hit crap. Thats why I only use it early on to turbo past the long phase between pre warp and warp bubbles. Once I get that its back to normal speed.



Varlun -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 7:11:46 PM)

0.25 doesn't seem strictly necessary, but 0.5 does seem a bit better than 1x. Now that 500 point defense is absolutely CHEWING through their fighters. Now I'm trying to figure out what main weapon I want to use. I'm trying rail guns, phasers... it will be a while before I can tech those torpedoes but I'll try them. But these weapons also seem very weak... even against a single carrier, the rail guns are just barely scratching the armor. I think it's the phasers doing the work. Once those shields fall the carriers get destroyed pretty fast. I have both phasers and rail guns installed at the same time, I'll have to try one at a time to see the results.



Varlun -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 7:24:39 PM)

Alright, I removed the phasers and tried 200 Massive Rail Guns. They are very disappointing. Can barely damage a single carrier. Trying 200 phasers next.



Varlun -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 7:27:54 PM)

Interesting point, the Rail Guns are twice the size for roughly the same amount of damage. I suppose that's because they bypass shields. I will still do a 200 v 200 comparison.

But they use SEVERAL TIMES the power, requiring more reactors, so that's the balance I suppose.



Varlun -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 7:40:57 PM)

Oh yeah, phasers do good work. When those suckers fire, the carrier goes from fully healthy to badly damaged. I'm curious to see how the torpedoes will compare.



Varlun -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 7:42:03 PM)

I have to run it at 0.25 sometimes (basically, if it's lagging, you're gonna be missing shots), but I'm able to take on several carriers now. Even if they get through my shields, my max tech armor is doing God's work.



SirHoraceHarkness -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 7:44:33 PM)

Phasers are good instant damage weapons but are a bit range limited. I like the plasma thunderbolts for the combination of long range punch en mass and insane close range damage they do.



Retreat1970 -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 8:12:33 PM)

Fighters are OP always have been. The range and lethality is unmatched. Too bad 10,000 fighters make the game crawl.



Varlun -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 8:16:28 PM)

Yes, well I've figured out that the Death Ray is terrible because it's considered a projectile... it misses, a lot. Just like the rail guns. I'm worried the torpedoes will do the same thing but I finally got them teched so I'm about to try them.



Varlun -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (9/25/2021 8:41:41 PM)

Yeah, Torpedoes work very well. They actually home in a bit, unlike the physical projectiles. Even on 4x speed they find their mark. And they seemed to do just as much damage as the phasers, if not more. And this was only with 100 torpedoes, vs 200 phasers! 200 torpedoes would be very very good.



chaosegg -> RE: Help with station design vs fighters (10/1/2021 2:42:32 PM)

A) It's an interesting experiment/challenge- the one-building-defense-optimization-versus carrier/fighters, but I would not consider it [normally] very common in actual gameplay; maybe that is just me though.
E.g. even with single-buildings, alone, sitting around doing important, but hardly unique or irreplaceable things like mining, I usually have just enough firepower & defense on them that I have a reasonable chance of getting a supporting fleet there to back it up before it dies...
and then keep sending reinforcements as your forces arrive and begin to delay the enemy(s)' attack(s)

B) 2 Questions
1. I actually came to the forums to find out how the targeting computer components interact with fighter/bombers. Any info. (or guesses) about how the accuracy bonus components effect your (or your enemies') fighters?
2. RE: Valrun; I assume you're putting armor on your station? If so, have you tried the various tech levels of armor against various fighter tech level damage?
I know armor doesn't tend to regenerate so well, but in theory it might provide a significant time-buffer that could allow you to get reinforcements in time.

C)
quote:

ORIGINAL: Varlun
Hmm no I haven't messed with the defense bases. I've just been trying to design a single OP space port. One problem I've run into is that tractor beams will only pull things in to the edge of your model/selection circle. So if you have a huge circle, i.e. a massive space station, then it won't pull them in very close, and thus things such as rail guns don't work very well. So yeah, I can see how having a smaller space port supplemented with smaller defensive stations could make more effective use of those weapons. However, enemy fighters tend to focus one target at a time, so if it isn't incredibly beefy then it's just going to get deleted. I just can't find a way to effectively counter the massive swarms of enemy fighters.

Like SirHoraceHarkness said about building "lots of defense bases with point defense"; I too tend to build some Defense Bases with a mix of fighter bays, blasters, missile & torps usually.
The idea is to force the a.i. to go from one thing to the next...
in the meantime your own firepower may be roughly the same but spread out over multiple overlapping base/targets.
Effectively giving you a lot more 'hit points', meat shield, buffer or whatever you call the time you have bought with your defenses by spreading them out somewhat.
The only (obvious) drawback is cost & build time... so I tend to add 1-2 Defense Base at a time, as my income gradually increases...
starting in locations of the greatest value to my civilization's ongoing/improving functionality (Homeworld, nice Wonders, fast producers, and super-rare resource locations come to mind).



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