Alytus-Orany railroad (Full Version)

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panzer51 -> Alytus-Orany railroad (10/7/2021 2:16:13 AM)

It didn't exist, and Alytus was on the other side of the river. There should be no railroad connector between Alytus and Orany/Vareny.



glenhope -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/7/2021 3:28:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

It didn't exist, and Alytus was on the other side of the river. There should be no railroad connector between Alytus and Orany/Vareny.


While we're on the subject.

No rail or road bridge existed across the Volga at Stalingrad.
There was no rail bridge at Kherson but one was built by German engineers.

The game makes no allowance for the need to repair bridges. A considerable undertaking. The bridge at Kalach on the Don was destroyed by the Soviets and never repaired by the Germans because they estimated the need for 70 trains to transport the necessary materials. They could barely feed the 6th Army with the trains that did get through to Kalach from Germany.



panzer51 -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/8/2021 3:02:25 AM)

Same story for Kuldiga-Tukums spur, it was never built. Soviets started construction before the war but only could build 8 km. Germans never finished it either. Should be removed.



Joel Billings -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/9/2021 4:01:01 PM)

Thanks for the info. The rail bridge at Stalingrad was intentionally added for simplicity as we could not represent the ferry system. As for having issues with bridges, we could never find an elegant way to represent this given the weekly turns and scale and just build the costs into the MP chart. Happy to explore possible rules if anyone has ideas on how to do it simply and without a lot of new code/art.



goranw -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/9/2021 6:06:41 PM)

Hi!
On maps from 1940 it was under construction. Alytus-Orany.
War maps from 1941 and ongoing have the rails as existing. Both german and soviet maps.
On more modern maps there is a gap in the line.
Alytus/Olita was mainly on the other side of the river as you say. The airfield not.
Kuldiga Tuckum was first a small gauge railway.
Plans to rebuild it was not completed as you say. Then perhaps it shouldnt be on the map.
Goran



panzer51 -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/9/2021 6:50:20 PM)

official Soviet map from 1941 (attached) doesn't have a rail connection between Orany and Alytus. if you can read Russian.



Dreamslayer -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/9/2021 7:37:51 PM)

Actually there was a railroad but it was closed and disassembled (?) in 1920-30x.
quote:

In 1923, the remaining part of the Zanemansky railway in Lithuania. in Šeštokai was connected to the Lithuanian railway network (a branch from Kazlu Ruda through Marijampolė). Trains from Kaunas through Alytus to Artillery station ran until mid-January 1926, when it was decided to close and dismantle the unsafe wooden bridge in Alytus, and ten years later, to dismantle the section to Artillery altogether.

https://olitaorany.lt/RUS/olita_orany_istorija_ru.htm



goranw -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/9/2021 9:49:47 PM)

Regarding the rail Alytus-Orany.
Its existence was regarded as a fact in all german-soviet and english/american maps from and through the war at least till -43.
Some of them detailed and an ex. is the Ostland german maps and local Lithaunia maps.Ex from -38.
Some of the maps of updated military use. Perhaps most of the line was potentially usable.
I see no other explanation. The soviet railway atlas has rails up to -43 and in many ways disregards the situation 41-42.
Goran

[image]local://upfiles/4588/F8F556EC6FD44932A2FED60164DB220F.jpg[/image]



panzer51 -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/9/2021 11:23:11 PM)

The Soviet Atlas was published in 1943 but clearly states that the data is as of June 1 1941. It was also published for the Red Army use, so would be strange if they tried to fool their own troops. Obviously there was no way for them to know what happened after the start of the war. Not sure about German maps, I would say they were generally unreliable as to current situation in Soviet Union. The link provided above also states that railroad was dismantled and the bridge demolished in 1920s. Regardless, since Alytus was on the other side of the river, and there was no bridge the railroad would clearly be useless.



goranw -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/10/2021 7:17:50 AM)

Hi! I would think that the troops were more dependent on soviet military maps than a railway atlas
published 1943. The data in the atlas was not from 1941. It was that but also included plans for the future.
Ex railway Armjansk- Chersson. Made in reality by the germans spring-42. The german maps were of
course gradually more and more reliable during -41 in ongoing occupied areas.
Goran



Dreamslayer -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/10/2021 7:23:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

The Soviet Atlas was published in 1943 but clearly states that the data is as of June 1 1941. It was also published for the Red Army use, so would be strange if they tried to fool their own troops. Obviously there was no way for them to know what happened after the start of the war. Not sure about German maps, I would say they were generally unreliable as to current situation in Soviet Union. The link provided above also states that railroad was dismantled and the bridge demolished in 1920s. Regardless, since Alytus was on the other side of the river, and there was no bridge the railroad would clearly be useless.

About this Soviet RR Atlas'43. It was published in 1943, it's not clear but looks like a state on German-occupied areas is of 1 June 1941 also as number of main ways (?).
E.g. RR line Daugavpils - Vilnius has unfinished 2nd way under construction (dotted line in this atlas).



goranw -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/10/2021 7:40:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer


quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

The Soviet Atlas was published in 1943 but clearly states that the data is as of June 1 1941. It was also published for the Red Army use, so would be strange if they tried to fool their own troops. Obviously there was no way for them to know what happened after the start of the war. Not sure about German maps, I would say they were generally unreliable as to current situation in Soviet Union. The link provided above also states that railroad was dismantled and the bridge demolished in 1920s. Regardless, since Alytus was on the other side of the river, and there was no bridge the railroad would clearly be useless.

About this Soviet RR Atlas'43. It was published in 1943, it's not clear but looks like a state on German-occupied areas is of 1 June 1941 also as number of main ways (?).
E.g. RR line Daugavpils - Vilnius has unfinished 2nd way under construction (dotted line in this atlas).

Hi!
I dont know if you could read my answer before last post. Its obviously the fact that the atlas was mainly from-41 but included future plans. The line from Armjansk was in soviet 5-years planning but was built by the germans spring-42. There are other examples.
Goran



Dreamslayer -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/10/2021 7:43:50 AM)

Olita (Alytus) - Orany (Varena). Article in English on the local site - https://olitaorany.lt/ENG/olita_orany_istorija_en.htm
There are also others link and old photos.



Dreamslayer -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/10/2021 8:07:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: goranw


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer


quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

The Soviet Atlas was published in 1943 but clearly states that the data is as of June 1 1941. It was also published for the Red Army use, so would be strange if they tried to fool their own troops. Obviously there was no way for them to know what happened after the start of the war. Not sure about German maps, I would say they were generally unreliable as to current situation in Soviet Union. The link provided above also states that railroad was dismantled and the bridge demolished in 1920s. Regardless, since Alytus was on the other side of the river, and there was no bridge the railroad would clearly be useless.

About this Soviet RR Atlas'43. It was published in 1943, it's not clear but looks like a state on German-occupied areas is of 1 June 1941 also as number of main ways (?).
E.g. RR line Daugavpils - Vilnius has unfinished 2nd way under construction (dotted line in this atlas).

Hi!
I dont know if you could read my answer before last post. Its obviously the fact that the atlas was mainly from-41 but included future plans. The line from Armjansk was in soviet 5-years planning but was built by the germans spring-42. There are other examples.
Goran

Maybe active line Armyansk-Kherson in the atlas because of it was close to front line. Last note (that I found so far) in the atlas has a date 15 Sep 1943.



goranw -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/10/2021 8:27:46 AM)

I am not disputing the article. But its a fact that the rails were still considered as a strategic possibility.
German railway maps from when they were in the area show the rails or what was left of them.
Many rails or what was left of them were still considered as potential usuable and described on maps. War damage or other reasons aside.
The soviet railroad atlas is a complicated thing to evaluate. Reality and wished plans?
Whats added after -41?
Goran



Dreamslayer -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/10/2021 9:31:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: goranw
The soviet railroad atlas is a complicated thing to evaluate. Reality and wished plans?
Whats added after -41?
Goran


E.g.
Line Astrakhan-Kizlyar. The decision about a construction was approved 16 Aug 1941, 4 Aug 1942 first train from Kizlyar arrived to Astrakhan. (total length of this line is about 335 km)

From the atlas notes:
quote:

Административное деление железных дорог в районах, временно оккупированных немецко-фашистскими войсками, дано в довоенных границах. Временные изменения в границах дорог, вызванные военными действиями, не учтены.
Количество главных путей на дорогах показано по состоянию на 1 июня 1941.

by Google-translator, yeah ... :
quote:

The administrative division of the railways in the areas temporarily occupied by the German fascist troops is given within the pre-war borders. The temporary changes in the boundaries of the roads caused by the hostilities were not taken into account.
The number of main tracks on the roads is shown as of 1 June 1941.

There is nothing more about others dates besides that it was published in the end of 1943.



goranw -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/10/2021 5:03:58 PM)

Line to Astrachan was completed in -42 and on the atlas map.
The rail from Armjansk to Cherson likewise.
So the atlas was from -41 but updated. Other ex exist.
It didnt show the railway standing -41.
Goran

[image]local://upfiles/4588/AEF534D824924E95BC2C59F1F24D7895.jpg[/image]



Dreamslayer -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/10/2021 6:17:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: goranw

Line to Astrachan was completed in -42 and on the atlas map.
The rail from Armjansk to Cherson likewise.
So the atlas was from -41 but updated. Other ex exist.
It didnt show the railway standing -41.
Goran

Idk if there was similar atlas before this version.
Notes in the atlas mean that a state of railroads are on the end of 1943. Except number of tracks on the RR lines (its on 1 June 1941) and its administrative divisions/segmentations (its names, borders etc.).
This means that for example, there is a line Daugavpils - Vilnius. According to the atlas on 1 June 1941 it had 1 track and 2nd was under construction.
Its unclear how lines that was built in German-occupied areas presents. A data about it in front-line areas can be very detailed (like about Armyansk - Kherson, on the end 1943 it was almostly liberated) but what about others areas e.g. somewhere more on west.

For me most interesting things in this atlas are that you can see how many tracks RR line had and also narrow gauge lines.

A bit OT:
In the TOAW 4 forum here was a thread about Soviet railroads. At some point it moved about various non-standart tracks (like narrow gauge track). I tried to find something about it - its actually can be a case. Because many RR lines in some areas (especially in Estonia, Latvia) had it. This leads to less carrying capacity and also you need to transfer freights on connect stations.
I wish to see in the game more detailed RR system, maybe even interactive. Where it will be possible to see RR lines that will be constructed during the war (by events or decisions).

upd.
I even found that my post - https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4961913# (post #13)



goranw -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/10/2021 9:16:08 PM)

I agree that the atlas is interesting and so is the discussion you have a link to.
A vital step in WitE-2 is the distinction between one or double rail line. That has an impact on capacity.
But how to decide about narrow gauges, how to decide if a line is one or double. Railtype and quality. Many times double lines change to one when repairing and changing gauge wide. What about railway bridges etc?
What time during the war should the map mostly represent? In some way as it is now its about sommer/fall-42.
You have the rail to Cherson,to Astrachan from south and from north against Stalingrad. All -41 they didnt exist.
Your suggestion to be possible to interact by event or decision is interesting. This regarding vital main lines.
Goran



glenhope -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/11/2021 4:11:17 AM)

Other railways completed within the timespan of the game:
1. Astrakhan to 299,188 (or thereabouts)
2. 216,62 to 197,61. The line through Onega
3. 172,51 Kemijarvi to 182,49 Salla

None of these matter for the current game as they're either out of play or are completed before they make any difference.
If the north Finland part of the map is introduced in the future then 2 & 3 will be relevant.



goranw -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/11/2021 12:03:10 PM)

Another line is from Timkowitschi westwards toward Baranowitschi. (South of Minsk)
Interesting is that the line from Osipowitschi is a double line.
Accordingly to some sources up to Timkowitschi and other to Slutsk.(As in the game)

Alytus to Varena is still a problem.
Soviet sources regard it as non existant. Lithaunia sources as a "stretched line "
and german sources mostly as something to count.
See ex.on this map. A special rail analysis map from 28-aug.
These were made continuously over vital areas.
Could they be completly wrong?
Goran

[image]local://upfiles/4588/2F275CCC488248B2AAA0579E12DA6B91.jpg[/image]



panzer51 -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/11/2021 2:44:27 PM)

Perhaps the Alytus-Varena line had residual rails remaining, but I'm not sure how the Germans collected this info. It's unlikely they physically checked every single rail line. Since it was clearly not used, this could've been just a "paper" rail-line. The history is very murky even for Armyansk-Kherson spur. There was a line north of Armyansk even in 1930s. In September 1941 the Germans even had to fight a Soviet armored train there, so you can't say they built an entire railroad down to Armyansk. The real question how far that railroad extended.



Dreamslayer -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/11/2021 4:19:46 PM)

Temporary RR bridge in Alytus (Olita) across Neman.
https://olitaorany.lt/ENG/laik_tiltas_en.htm#ardomas



goranw -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/11/2021 5:29:52 PM)

quote:

The history is very murky even for Armyansk-Kherson spur. There was a line north of Armyansk even in 1930s. In September 1941 the Germans even had to fight a Soviet armored train there, so you can't say they built an entire railroad down to Armyansk. The real question how far that railroad extended.


I havnt found any map , german or soviet, that shows a rail from Armjansk to south river at Cherson.
This up to 1942. Perhaps some rail with small gauge. Detailed books about "Blue eisenbahner" say that they took
responsibility for the rail in may-42. The rail was hampered by the fact that no real bridge was built over Dnjeper. For a time there was a floating bridge but it was in shortly destroyed by the germans themselves.
That the germans fought an armored train in that area, in that time, is highly unlikely. I am interested in the source. Of course its not impossible[:)]
Goran



panzer51 -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/11/2021 8:35:48 PM)

Book Оборона Крыма 1941 г. Прорыв Манштейна, it cites the war diary of 73rd infantry as well as Soviet sources.



goranw -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/12/2021 8:15:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

Book Оборона Крыма 1941 г. Прорыв Манштейна, it cites the war diary of 73rd infantry as well as Soviet sources.


Hi!
Very interesting.
Do you mean the 73 infantery division or some other type of unit?
Goran



panzer51 -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/12/2021 1:12:14 PM)

yes Wehrmacht's 73rd infantry division plus kurt meir's from leibstandarte recollections.



goranw -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/12/2021 2:30:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

yes Wehrmacht's 73rd infantry division plus kurt meir's from leibstandarte recollections.

No doubt there was some sort of rail a bit north of Perekop going southwards over the Tatargraben.
Also a panzer train present. Was it coming from Krim? Probably. I would really like to know what happened to it.
Goran



panzer51 -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/12/2021 2:54:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: goranw


quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

yes Wehrmacht's 73rd infantry division plus kurt meir's from leibstandarte recollections.

No doubt there was some sort of rail a bit north of Perekop going southwards over the Tatargraben.
Also a panzer train present. Was it coming from Krim? Probably. I would really like to know what happened to it.
Goran

It was built at Kerch Metallurgical plant, one of I think 3 improvised armor trains with mainly 37mm guns, and some 34K and 8К 76mm AA guns. At the time it was called "Death to German occupiers" later on it got renamed "Voikovets". At the end of August it was assigned to support 156 rifle division and was based at Armyansk. After the first clash with LSAH and 73 ID near Vadim station (10 km NW of Armyansk) on Sept 12, 1941, it was damaged next day by Ju-87s from II./StG77 and retreated south to Simferopol for repairs. Was destroyed on October 31, 1941 at Alma.



goranw -> RE: Alytus-Orany railroad (10/12/2021 4:38:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51


quote:

ORIGINAL: goranw


quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

yes Wehrmacht's 73rd infantry division plus kurt meir's from leibstandarte recollections.

No doubt there was some sort of rail a bit north of Perekop going southwards over the Tatargraben.
Also a panzer train present. Was it coming from Krim? Probably. I would really like to know what happened to it.
Goran

It was built at Kerch Metallurgical plant, one of I think 3 improvised armor trains with mainly 37mm guns, and some 34K and 8К 76mm AA guns. At the time it was called "Death to German occupiers" later on it got renamed "Voikovets". At the end of August it was assigned to support 156 rifle division and was based at Armyansk. After the first clash with LSAH and 73 ID near Vadim station (10 km NW of Armyansk) on Sept 12, 1941, it was damaged next day by Ju-87s from II./StG77 and retreated south to Simferopol for repairs. Was destroyed on October 31, 1941 at Alma.

Thanks for the information.
Goran



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