RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2



Message

Erik Rutins -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/12/2021 2:24:26 PM)

I agree with the current ratings, but I just wanted to chime in to support some of the comments above that where they start is less important over time than how you use them. If you are careful with the minor Axis allies and don't ask too much of them and make sure they are in advantageous situations where they can experience victories, they will prove more useful in the long run.

If you are planning to use them defensively, I support a fortified triple stack and ideally something in Reserve to react for best results.

Regards,

- Erik



jubjub -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/12/2021 2:31:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I agree with the current ratings, but I just wanted to chime in to support some of the comments above that where they start is less important over time than how you use them. If you are careful with the minor Axis allies and don't ask too much of them and make sure they are in advantageous situations where they can experience victories, they will prove more useful in the long run.

If you are planning to use them defensively, I support a fortified triple stack and ideally something in Reserve to react for best results.

Regards,

- Erik




I'd add that they need to be across a river as well lol. Another issue with the low morale is they constantly bleed due to attrition if they are next to the enemy.

Their performance is also significantly boosted by placing them under a German corps commander, but this may not be as feasible with the new assault HQ changes.



DesertedFox -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/12/2021 2:34:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Besides by that very link you posted about the Italian army, it underlines how the Italian troops fought well and valiantly despite the lack of equipment, the general staff being too static, etc etc - and how Alpini sent with Caucasus in mind were instead deployed into the Steppes. (@DesertFox)

I am glad at least I am not the one who opened this thread and I am not a single voice there.


The link I provided names two divisions that fought well in 41 and 42. These troops were the VERY best Italy had. Their equipment, logistics, and tactics were horrible. Their morale was apparently good.

In the battles named above such as Uman and the Crimea, the Romanians were never at the point but supporting Germans troops.



One could argue that the Italians also fought alongside the Germans when Tobruk was captured. They only provided troops for the encirclement and NOT the assault but hey they were there and thus deserving of a better morale etc rating going by the German fan club yardstick.

Let's take that to the extreme. In 1941 Operation barborossa opened and from June through to November, Germany and her allies completely dominated the Russians in battle. So we should give all Germany's allies better morale just for being in the same theater?

For me, there is no case for improving the Romanians stats. No one here has provided any facts or evidence to support that.

As for the Italians, the 2 or 3 earliest divisons were their best and did indeed do okay into 42. The rest though were the same troops that failed in France 1940 and Greece in 40-41.

Those Italian Divs I mentioned 2 have morale/exp or 50 and the 3rd 40. the last one is a mountain div and there is definitely a case to have his stats moved up to 50.

So given that most Russian starting units have a morale/exp factor of less than 50 these Italian divs are in fact superior (in terms of morale/exp, NOT equipment) to the Russians at the start of the war and for some time to come.

HLYA has shown how the Germans are quite well balanced as the game currently stands as has Tyronec.

Thus apart from the sole Italian Mountain div with morale /exp at 40 there is nothing presented here that needs a change.

On top of everything, I have said I am sure the Devs have given even greater study to the units stats.

People here make outrageous claims when their entire study of the war entails a quick read of one Wiki page.

I can claim pigs can fly. But unless I can provide facts and evidence that they can, it will remain that they cannot.

The onus is on YOU to present factual evidence for a change.

quote:

Personally I think Italians and Romanians should have a baseline of 50 National Morale or 55. Hungarians and Slovaks 60.


Based on what? Your opinion becasue you had youre arse handed to you in a couple of games.



Great_Ajax -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/12/2021 2:41:31 PM)

I personally wouldn't have an issue with having 50 as the minimum for Romanians and Italians.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Low Axis minor NM was a problem in WitE1 too unless bumped a bit by Dominic. The +5 increase to 45 (in 1941) for the Romanians made them far less brittle without getting too powerful. HUN units in WitE have 50 though.
Italians have a massive problem with just 40 NM, this is cannonfodder level




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/12/2021 3:07:52 PM)



O.O


quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

I personally wouldn't have an issue with having 50 as the minimum for Romanians and Italians.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Low Axis minor NM was a problem in WitE1 too unless bumped a bit by Dominic. The +5 increase to 45 (in 1941) for the Romanians made them far less brittle without getting too powerful. HUN units in WitE have 50 though.
Italians have a massive problem with just 40 NM, this is cannonfodder level






HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/12/2021 3:16:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I agree with the current ratings, but I just wanted to chime in to support some of the comments above that where they start is less important over time than how you use them. If you are careful with the minor Axis allies and don't ask too much of them and make sure they are in advantageous situations where they can experience victories, they will prove more useful in the long run.

If you are planning to use them defensively, I support a fortified triple stack and ideally something in Reserve to react for best results.

Regards,

- Erik




I'd add that they need to be across a river as well lol. Another issue with the low morale is they constantly bleed due to attrition if they are next to the enemy.

Their performance is also significantly boosted by placing them under a German corps commander, but this may not be as feasible with the new assault HQ changes.


Yes, excellent point under German Corps. I did that in our game Jubjub. You should still easily be able to use 2 German Corps for the Rumanians even with the updated rules of Assault HQ's coming out.

Now having said that the AP cost of removing a Rumanian leader and placing a new one in their place is a bit excessive. 27 AP cost for this one.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/04242AA29BC147C69C678CFE14A311F6.jpg[/image]



Joel Billings -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/12/2021 3:18:20 PM)

We looked at this extensively during development. In fact several times, and late in development raised some values and set some units to elite status to get what we wanted. During that work, someone provided a link to some great histories of Romanian units in various battles. I read many of these. The only conclusion one could draw is that the Germans believed only the Romanian mountain and cav divisions were considered of any worth (plus one or two regular infantry divisions, IIRC). All the rest were considered terrible, having proven in several cases which I read just how bad they were. The Germans tried to keep the main force off the front line, but Stalingrad forced them to put the Romanians in the line with horrible consequences. There is absolutely no reason to increased their value based on these accounts. As for Italy, sure there were a handful of units that fought well. By and large though, they performed miserably from Greece to North Africa to Sicily. No justification for a change. I think the Hungarian 50 in 1943 is sufficient. Unless someone can show some actual hard evidence for a change, I consider this topic resolved and closed.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/12/2021 3:23:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

We looked at this extensively during development. In fact several times, and late in development raised some values and set some units to elite status to get what we wanted. During that work, someone provided a link to some great histories of Romanian units in various battles. I read many of these. The only conclusion one could draw is that the Germans believed only the Romanian mountain and cav divisions were considered of any worth (plus one or two regular infantry divisions, IIRC). All the rest were considered terrible, having proven in several cases which I read just how bad they were. The Germans tried to keep the main force off the front line, but Stalingrad forced them to put the Romanians in the line with horrible consequences. There is absolutely no reason to increased their value based on these accounts. As for Italy, sure there were a handful of units that fought well. By and large though, they performed miserably from Greece to North Africa to Sicily. No justification for a change. I think the Hungarian 50 in 1943 is sufficient. Unless someone can show some actual hard evidence for a change, I consider this topic resolved and closed.


I am Pro German but I don't carry a bias trying to always to fair and this is fair imho. Thumbs up reply :)

[image]local://upfiles/53556/AC423CCF51BF43BE9EE028357734D225.jpg[/image]



DesertedFox -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/12/2021 3:27:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain



O.O


quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

I personally wouldn't have an issue with having 50 as the minimum for Romanians and Italians.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Low Axis minor NM was a problem in WitE1 too unless bumped a bit by Dominic. The +5 increase to 45 (in 1941) for the Romanians made them far less brittle without getting too powerful. HUN units in WitE have 50 though.
Italians have a massive problem with just 40 NM, this is cannonfodder level







Your wish has already been granted.

Starting morale.

Romanain cav and Mountain morale 60.
Romanian Arm 65
Some Romanian divs 50
Others, frontier guards mostly types mostly. 45

Italian all 50 morale except 1 which is 40 (arrives turn 5 though I think it should be 50 unless the devs know something about it I don't, which is VERY possible).

National morale is 40 for the above two nations.

It's 50 for the Russians dropping to 45 in Sept 41.

Neither the average Italian or Romanian soldiers were all that keen on fighting in Russia.

Whilst Stalin and his communist party were certainly unpopular in parts of Russia the average Russian soldier was fed a lot

BS propaganda about fighting The Great Patriotic War and from the earliest days, many fought to the last man and bullet

(outside of mass army surrenders). Many a German soldier wrote early on of how he believed this was a far different war than

that of Poland and France.

Bottom line, Russians were fighting for their homeland on home soil, Axis allies were not and had far less interest in the

war as a whole.






DesertedFox -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/12/2021 3:30:07 PM)

quote:

I am Pro German but I don't carry a bias trying to always to fair and this is fair imho. Thumbs up reply :)



I know you are HL.

ooops my original post was incorrect.



RedJohn -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/21/2021 8:12:50 PM)

Apologies for reviving the thread, and I understand the previous arguments - but I just have to confirm:

Are results like this intended, then? I was attacking across the Dnepr against a Romanian ID. The result was a 95% rout, more than a lot of Soviet units.

This particular example would probably be an edge case somewhat, but the general trend of "Romanians routing and losing 50% of their men" is consistent.

[image]local://upfiles/68404/C3A8C3F76DF74E6F9F3F301B941B63FD.jpg[/image]



Beethoven1 -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/21/2021 8:15:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RedJohn

[image]local://upfiles/68404/C3A8C3F76DF74E6F9F3F301B941B63FD.jpg[/image]


54000 final CV to 0. Well, I don't see any issue with Soviet troops being 54,000 times better than Romanian troops... considering that I am playing the Soviets. [:D]



panzer51 -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/21/2021 8:36:28 PM)

In 1941 the Romanians were better equipped than the Soviets, so such attack across a major river should result in easy hold for the Romanians. The problem is artillery, rather its ammo. In 1941 Soviets had a huge problem with ammo supply which rendered all their arty useless.



AlbertN -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/21/2021 9:51:43 PM)

Clearly Romanians dispersed after shooting a few shots and got slain while fleeing and routing en mass!



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/21/2021 10:31:14 PM)

Play with enhanced TB control, send the Rumanians to the Soviet Garrison and keep the Germans on the map.



panzer51 -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/21/2021 10:34:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Play with enhanced TB control, send the Rumanians to the Soviet Garrison and keep the Germans on the map.


Wonder, why real Germans couldn't figure that?



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/21/2021 10:49:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Play with enhanced TB control, send the Rumanians to the Soviet Garrison and keep the Germans on the map.


Wonder, why real Germans couldn't figure that?


/shrug You still need some Germans though in Soviet Garrison but the current state of the Rumanians I would send to Soviet Garrison and work on getting about 5ish Rumanians up in Morale in the process that will stay on the map.



Dreamslayer -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/21/2021 11:36:54 PM)

Romanians actively was used to cover coastal line on Azov and Black Seas.
e.g. status on 6 Dec 1941



RedJohn -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/21/2021 11:50:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Play with enhanced TB control, send the Rumanians to the Soviet Garrison and keep the Germans on the map.


Sure that's the play, but the point of reviving the thread was to confirm whether or not the intention was for Romanian units to die so easily to 41 Soviets and beyond.




GibsonPete -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/22/2021 2:19:42 AM)

"Sure that's the play, but the point of reviving the thread was to confirm whether or not the intention was for Romanian units to die so easily to 41 Soviets and beyond."

I doubt that was the intention. All the Axis minors can be useful and perhaps effective. [;)] They are brittle and have to be used with more consideration than a German unit. They can be used with German units to soak up losses during a defensive or an offensive operation. They can seal and perhaps reduce pockets of Soviet units. They can replace German units in the partisan box. They can protect ports. They can consume freight. They can route and leave holes for Soviet Cavalry to pour through. They can absorb Soviet air attacks. They make widows that need to be comforted. They provide opportunities to build Soviet morale and their win to loss ratio. Need I post more. [sm=happy0065.gif]




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/22/2021 3:45:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RedJohn


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Play with enhanced TB control, send the Rumanians to the Soviet Garrison and keep the Germans on the map.


Sure that's the play, but the point of reviving the thread was to confirm whether or not the intention was for Romanian units to die so easily to 41 Soviets and beyond.




You are absolutely correct. I will rephrase what I wrote to be up front and to the point. "THEY SUX" and will take horrendous losses use them somewhere else. Hope this clears it up.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/22/2021 3:49:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

"Sure that's the play, but the point of reviving the thread was to confirm whether or not the intention was for Romanian units to die so easily to 41 Soviets and beyond."

I doubt that was the intention. All the Axis minors can be useful and perhaps effective. [;)] They are brittle and have to be used with more consideration than a German unit. They can be used with German units to soak up losses during a defensive or an offensive operation. They can seal and perhaps reduce pockets of Soviet units. They can replace German units in the partisan box. They can protect ports. They can consume freight. They can route and leave holes for Soviet Cavalry to pour through. They can absorb Soviet air attacks. They make widows that need to be comforted. They provide opportunities to build Soviet morale and their win to loss ratio. Need I post more. [sm=happy0065.gif]




I'm sorry but that is the hand that has been dealt. We either deal with it in the best way possible (my option at the moment), or we keep reviving this thread only to revert back to Mr Joel Billings post of him not changing Romanian Morale at all in post #37. It is as simple that and he said, "Topic is resolved and closed". That seems final to me. Sorry, I too believe they are weak as heck but final is final.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/22/2021 3:52:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

"Sure that's the play, but the point of reviving the thread was to confirm whether or not the intention was for Romanian units to die so easily to 41 Soviets and beyond."

I doubt that was the intention. All the Axis minors can be useful and perhaps effective. [;)] They are brittle and have to be used with more consideration than a German unit. They can be used with German units to soak up losses during a defensive or an offensive operation. They can seal and perhaps reduce pockets of Soviet units. They can replace German units in the partisan box. They can protect ports. They can consume freight. They can route and leave holes for Soviet Cavalry to pour through. They can absorb Soviet air attacks. They make widows that need to be comforted. They provide opportunities to build Soviet morale and their win to loss ratio. Need I post more. [sm=happy0065.gif]




I'm sorry but that is the hand that has been dealt. We either deal with it in the best way possible (my option at the moment), or we keep reviving this thread only to revert back to Mr Joel Billings post of him not changing Romanian Morale at all in post #37. It is as simple that and he said, "Topic is resolved and closed". That seems final to me. Sorry, I too believe they are weak as heck but final is final.


This was not directed to anyone just saying.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/22/2021 3:59:17 AM)

If the history buffs can prove the Rumanians were better than what we are seeing with Historical references then I am sure they (Mr Billings & Dev Team) will revisit the settings for the Rumanians. Without that we have to play the cards we have in our hands with this despised light blue counters on the map.



Hardradi -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/22/2021 6:15:17 AM)

Attacking without surprise these are the initial results for the Rumanians in Barbarossa. "The 1940 frontier was reached the following day, 26 July, which is considered the official end of operations for the Northern Bukovina and Bessarabian campaign in 1941. The Romanian troops suffered heavy losses during these fights: 22,765 men (4,271 killed, 12,326 wounded and 6,168 missing) and 58 aircraft. The Soviet losses were 17,893 (8,519 dead and missing and 9,374 wounded)."

https://www.worldwar2.ro/operatii/?article=5

Based on the article they appeared to suffer many Soviet counterattacks. Most were held.

They got absolutely hammered here: "The battle of Falciu – Tiganca was over. The losses suffered by the two divisions were gruesome: 2,473 by the Guard Division and 6,222 by the 21st Infantry Division."



RedJohn -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/22/2021 9:08:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

If the history buffs can prove the Rumanians were better than what we are seeing with Historical references then I am sure they (Mr Billings & Dev Team) will revisit the settings for the Rumanians. Without that we have to play the cards we have in our hands with this despised light blue counters on the map.


He did indeed say the topic was closed - but I was hoping to get confirmation that they're happy and/or okay with the results of the battle I posted.

If they are, fair enough.



Nix77 -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/22/2021 10:32:47 AM)

I've been seeing an increasing amount of these 100000 vs 0 results recently. Did these happen before 1.01.15b or is this a new thing, and is it intentional?



Beethoven1 -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/22/2021 10:53:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

I've been seeing an increasing amount of these 100000 vs 0 results recently. Did these happen before 1.01.15b or is this a new thing, and is it intentional?


My own subjective perception is that these seem to have been increasing in frequency recently. However, the increase was not just with the latest patch. I don't think I saw that sort of result with the OG 1.00 version when the game was released, but I do remember seeing this sort of result more often in the more recent patches like 1.09, even before the 1.15 beta.



loki100 -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/22/2021 11:32:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

I've been seeing an increasing amount of these 100000 vs 0 results recently. Did these happen before 1.01.15b or is this a new thing, and is it intentional?


I *think* this patch has increased lethality of combat. If so its feasible for a badly beaten defender to end up no undisrupted elements that contribute to the cv.

if so (note the chain of I think/if/if) then its attacker cv/0, hence the odd ratio.

I've seen this quite often before if you give the axis AI 120+ and that triggers the 'tac nuke' routine, that tends to generate a lot of disruptions on top of the combat (if the Soviets lose) which is why I suspect the new tank combat system has triggered other changes?



Nix77 -> RE: Is Romanian/Axis Minor national morale slightly too low? (10/22/2021 12:00:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

I've been seeing an increasing amount of these 100000 vs 0 results recently. Did these happen before 1.01.15b or is this a new thing, and is it intentional?


I *think* this patch has increased lethality of combat. If so its feasible for a badly beaten defender to end up no undisrupted elements that contribute to the cv.

if so (note the chain of I think/if/if) then its attacker cv/0, hence the odd ratio.

I've seen this quite often before if you give the axis AI 120+ and that triggers the 'tac nuke' routine, that tends to generate a lot of disruptions on top of the combat (if the Soviets lose) which is why I suspect the new tank combat system has triggered other changes?


I've seen lots of these results in regular AIvsAI (difficulty 100/100) games. I'm not sure but I would guess these crushing odds and battles that completely devastate AFVs in single battle might be related.

I'm also seeing battles with regular retreat results, very light losses in manpower and guns, but huge AFV losses. Below is a otherwise rather uneventful where the Soviets somehow manage to lose 200 M1942/3 T-34, all of their SU-152, and the Germans take a fair share of damage too.

It almost seems like the battles are being fought too much on long range encounters?

[image]local://upfiles/55175/7DB49A92DC204C4BA544F61008ED8673.jpg[/image]



Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
1.234375