Planes Taking Excessive Op Losses - %travelled issue? (Full Version)

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Rosencrantus -> Planes Taking Excessive Op Losses - %travelled issue? (10/21/2021 4:31:32 AM)

Hello there, playing on the 01.01.15 public beta. In my StB server game against Tyronec, I've noticed that compared to the previous patch that we were on, which was the 01.01.07 beta, bombers on GS are taking significantly more op Losses. The air groups participating in GS were all at 0 fatigue, good morale, in good supply and well experienced. I know that flying planes in snowfall will obviously lead to more op losses, but I remember in my own SP games on previous patches that when I flew GS in blizzards I still took less op losses. Checking the unit card (KG 55) of one of the bombers participating in the GS I saw that they were already at around 60-80% miles traveled for one battle.

I also had GS missions running in the far south in much better air weather (cold) and still suffered crazy operational losses. The planes at KG 51 helped 4-5 battles and are only at 15-20% travelled - a more normal %travelled number to me at least.

Any idea what is going on? If it's not an issue with the game itself I would like to know how I can reduce these losses.

[image]local://upfiles/76389/49A40C238AAD450F94BFC76D82F814F2.png[/image]



Joel Billings -> RE: Planes Taking Excessive Op Losses - %travelled issue? (10/27/2021 9:20:25 PM)

There is nothing that I know of that changed re op losses in many versions. A lot goes into op losses, but distance to target and weather are probably among the biggest factors. I know many players feel the op losses are too high in general, we aren't finding total losses are out of whack. It maybe that we're generating larger than historical op losses in some situations, but generating less losses in other cases (or having lower intensity of sorties in the game than history). This one is a tough one and doesn't have an easy answer. We could try to lower op losses in general, but all losses than may be too low.

One thing to know is that op losses go up dramatically when flying from airfields in muddy conditions, especially small size airfields. I looked and you are flying from level 2 airbase in snow with snowfall. I will ask Gary to look into this, but there may be nothing to be done other than an across the board reduction.



Hardradi -> RE: Planes Taking Excessive Op Losses - %travelled issue? (10/29/2021 5:29:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
One thing to know is that op losses go up dramatically when flying from airfields in muddy conditions, especially small size airfields. I looked and you are flying from level 2 airbase in snow with snowfall.


[X(] Some of the information/tips you are coming out with are very interesting Joel. It is appreciated, please provide more information whenever you can.

I would say many players including me would have no idea that the information above was actually modeled in the game. As we do not know, we blindly run air missions in these conditions without knowing the consequences and get frustrated by the results.



loki100 -> RE: Planes Taking Excessive Op Losses - %travelled issue? (10/29/2021 7:51:07 AM)

some of it is scattered, but most of this does lurk in the manual, just easy to overlook, such as



[image]local://upfiles/43256/864984F362534D7D8067F5DA1FD53337.jpg[/image]



Rosencrantus -> RE: Planes Taking Excessive Op Losses - %travelled issue? (10/29/2021 8:44:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

some of it is scattered, but most of this does lurk in the manual, just easy to overlook, such as



[image]local://upfiles/43256/864984F362534D7D8067F5DA1FD53337.jpg[/image]


I remember reading that, but I was still surprised at the amount of op losses I took. Now that I've gotten a better look, I realise that a lot of my bomber formations have plenty of untrained pilots (around 40 - 50xp). I'm willing to bet that it's them that are driving the op losses so high for me right now and that there isn't really anything I can do about it. It's just the path the Luftwaffe is going to take as the war drags on.



loki100 -> RE: Planes Taking Excessive Op Losses - %travelled issue? (10/29/2021 10:35:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

...

I remember reading that, but I was still surprised at the amount of op losses I took. Now that I've gotten a better look, I realise that a lot of my bomber formations have plenty of untrained pilots (around 40 - 50xp). I'm willing to bet that it's them that are driving the op losses so high for me right now and that there isn't really anything I can do about it. It's just the path the Luftwaffe is going to take as the war drags on.


in my vs AI game I started pulling <55 exp LW formations to the reserve. They will train up over 4-5 turns to closer to the NM.

With the Soviets this constant rotation is essential, and a lot easier (due to the number of potential formations). I think it paid off as I kept some sort of air power across 1944.

The problem with low experience is they fly/die since both the combat and the ops loss mechanisms target them. So in the end, you get stuck with formations that have little real impact and constantly chew up your pilots.



Rosencrantus -> RE: Planes Taking Excessive Op Losses - %travelled issue? (10/29/2021 11:11:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

...

I remember reading that, but I was still surprised at the amount of op losses I took. Now that I've gotten a better look, I realise that a lot of my bomber formations have plenty of untrained pilots (around 40 - 50xp). I'm willing to bet that it's them that are driving the op losses so high for me right now and that there isn't really anything I can do about it. It's just the path the Luftwaffe is going to take as the war drags on.


in my vs AI game I started pulling <55 exp LW formations to the reserve. They will train up over 4-5 turns to closer to the NM.

With the Soviets this constant rotation is essential, and a lot easier (due to the number of potential formations). I think it paid off as I kept some sort of air power across 1944.

The problem with low experience is they fly/die since both the combat and the ops loss mechanisms target them. So in the end, you get stuck with formations that have little real impact and constantly chew up your pilots.


The real pain is the fact that many of these low exp pilots are mixed in with high exp ones. Meaning that if I send my air group to the reserves I have to send the fit for service ones as well. This is going to take awhile to do then but should be worth it in the end. Thanks for giving a heads up.



Great_Ajax -> RE: Planes Taking Excessive Op Losses - %travelled issue? (10/29/2021 12:39:28 PM)

Perhaps an air group indicator with a simple Red, Yellow or Green marker that indicates the air group's current operational loss risk level (encompassing pilot experience, weather, quality of airfields) could help the player make more informed choices on how and when to use their air groups in order to mitigate these losses.

Trey



Hardradi -> RE: Planes Taking Excessive Op Losses - %travelled issue? (10/29/2021 10:13:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

some of it is scattered, but most of this does lurk in the manual, just easy to overlook, such as

[image]local://upfiles/43256/864984F362534D7D8067F5DA1FD53337.jpg[/image]


Yeah, I went and did a search through the manual after I read it and found it. [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Perhaps an air group indicator with a simple Red, Yellow or Green marker that indicates the air group's current operational loss risk level (encompassing pilot experience, weather, quality of airfields) could help the player make more informed choices on how and when to use their air groups in order to mitigate these losses.

Trey


Great idea.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I remember reading that, but I was still surprised at the amount of op losses I took. Now that I've gotten a better look, I realise that a lot of my bomber formations have plenty of untrained pilots (around 40 - 50xp). I'm willing to bet that it's them that are driving the op losses so high for me right now and that there isn't really anything I can do about it. It's just the path the Luftwaffe is going to take as the war drags on.


Turn 1 is an opportunity to increase pilot experience. I checked the results of my bomber group with the most kills. There was an average experience increase over around 2.2 for the Gruppe. Some pilots put on 5 to 7 experience individually.



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