Railyards and freight movment (Full Version)

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Hardradi -> Railyards and freight movment (11/4/2021 10:11:23 PM)

There was a comment made in another thread (I cant remember where it was), it said something along the lines that railyards mostly push freight forward from themselves to forward depots.

Looking specifically at railyards and their rolling stock, if a level 2 railyard is at the end of a single track with a depot does it use its rolling stock to pick up freight from a depot, say 10 hexes back on the same rail line?




glenhope -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (11/5/2021 4:38:37 AM)

For all railyards size 2 or greater, their value is used to move freight within a 30 hex radius. (How much freight per point, I don't know.) A rail line that ends in a depot will get benefit from the each of the 2+ railyards within 30 hexes for that part of the line within their range. That's why 2+ railyards are important as part of your connected rail-net regardless of whether they are on the actual line a unit of freight moves down.



PeteJC -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (11/6/2021 2:00:07 PM)

Any advice on how best to repair railyards. Can I manually assign a construction support unit to a city/railyard or do I have to hope that the AI does it? If only the AI can assign construction units to rail repair is it best to have extra construction units attached to OKH or at a lower level HQ closer to the railyard??



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (11/6/2021 3:03:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeteJC

Any advice on how best to repair railyards. Can I manually assign a construction support unit to a city/railyard or do I have to hope that the AI does it? If only the AI can assign construction units to rail repair is it best to have extra construction units attached to OKH or at a lower level HQ closer to the railyard??


The AI can assign construction workers to repair railyards. It doesn't always do so where you may want them. As such you can assign construction workers to the site for repair(cost AP though where AI assignment cost zero AP). Please note if you have a port and railyard in a hex the port will take priority on the repair. You can also alleviate that by, spending AP of course, so prioritize the repair of railyard instead. I did write about this in my AAR. You can also look up in the manual, which I also have in my AAR, the needed rules for assignment of repair construction units. Hope this helps.



Stamb -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (11/6/2021 4:15:11 PM)

Is it worth to spend AP to manually assign construction workers or to just prioritize a repair, is it possible that prioritized factory/railyard/etc will not get any construction units assigned even if there are plenty of them within a range and free?



Teo41_ITA -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (11/6/2021 6:27:46 PM)

I assign the repair units to Army Corps, as they are allowed to repair within a 5-hex radius from the unit. In this way, by moving my AC HQ, I can "direct" my repair units along the rail line I want to repair



PeteJC -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (11/7/2021 12:27:01 AM)

I have checked the manual and I can not find where one can spend AP to attach a construction support unit to a railyard. Have also played around with the units and right clicked on railyard hexes. Are these references to spending AP about setting up a supply depot or have I just not found the rules/commands yet?

PS: Thanks for responding Hard Luck and more importantly thanks for all the posts and work that you do to make the game better.



DeletedUser44 -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (11/7/2021 12:52:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeteJC

I have checked the manual and I can not find where one can spend AP to attach a construction support unit to a railyard. Have also played around with the units and right clicked on railyard hexes. Are these references to spending AP about setting up a supply depot or have I just not found the rules/commands yet?

PS: Thanks for responding Hard Luck and more importantly thanks for all the posts and work that you do to make the game better.


When you actually assign the construction unit to the city, it will deduct the AP then.



DeletedUser44 -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (11/7/2021 12:55:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Is it worth to spend AP to manually assign construction workers or to just prioritize a repair, is it possible that prioritized factory/railyard/etc will not get any construction units assigned even if there are plenty of them within a range and free?


Sometimes it is, especially for key cities with large rail yards that you want repaired ASAP.

Otherwise you are dependent on the logistics AI to eventually get around to it. In many cases, it doesn't for several turns... if then.

Prioritizing a specific factory to repair does 2 things -
* it is another hint to the AI to add construction engineers (which does not always happen)
* and prioritizes that factory repair over others...

-----

There are some ways to "encourage" the Logistics AI. One way I found to help is to move a HQ unit directly to the city and place several construction units in the HQ. But even this is not a sure thing.

Also, placing construction units in higher-level HQs give the AI more units to assign as it increases their range.

Availability of supplies also seems to have an influence over auto-assignment of construction units.

I know that by the time I have taken Dnepropetrovsk, the AI almost never auto-assigns anything and I have to do it manually, as I need these railyards ASAP.




Yogol -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (11/7/2021 7:00:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

I know that by the time I have taken Dnepropetrovsk, the AI almost never auto-assigns anything and I have to do it manually, as I need these railyards ASAP.



If you do it right and make no mistakes, you can have the supply line up and running on a double line all the way to Stalino by the time that the Russians receive their 500.000 reinforcements and they start to counterattack.

But it requires your full attention and ensure that you always have enough hexes converted on the line Lvov-Tarnopol-Vinnista-Dnepropetrovsk-Stalino one turn ahead of FBD1.

Personally, I always rush to Stalino. But then I am out of supply for several turns so that may not be the best strategy.
Aside from the pocket on turn 1, you don't get to pocket much in the south anyway, so moving slower may be better.



loki100 -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (11/7/2021 10:22:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: glenhope

For all railyards size 2 or greater, their value is used to move freight within a 30 hex radius. (How much freight per point, I don't know.) A rail line that ends in a depot will get benefit from the each of the 2+ railyards within 30 hexes for that part of the line within their range. That's why 2+ railyards are important as part of your connected rail-net regardless of whether they are on the actual line a unit of freight moves down.


not quite right I'm afraid

a) units claim rail capacity (from railyards) within 30 hexes of where they entrain. They hold this capacity till they detrain - so feasiblty it could be tied up for a few turns and not available for other moves
b) freight claims rail capacity (from railyards) within 30 .. etc. Since this is depot-depot freight moves the great majority is NSS-front line (or as near as possible). If the freight can't reach the target depot (congestion or other SMP costs) it detrains at an intermediate depot that it can reach.
c) if in a later turn it moves depot-depot from that intermediate depot (& you really should be setting up this pattern) then it claims rail capacity (trains if you like) from 30 hexes of the intermediate depot, again it moves as far as it can/needs and releases this capacity back into the system

The key is that when entraining its what is in the vicinity of the particular hex. So as the Axis, freight from Berlin only really uses the railyards in N Germany, Prague central and west Germany, Vienna pulls off S Germany and Austria.

Sorry to be a bit pedantic as you are not wrong in what you've written, just there is a fair bit of confusion around this concept



loki100 -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (11/7/2021 10:26:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

...

I know that by the time I have taken Dnepropetrovsk, the AI almost never auto-assigns anything and I have to do it manually, as I need these railyards ASAP.




Actually you don't. You need those railyards once Dnepropetrovsk is likely to push freight on a depot-depot process (ie use rail capacity/trains). As long Dnepropetrovsk is roughly 10 hexes from the front line any received freight is being emptied by truck (or horse maybe) on a depot-unit relationship.

If you look at the vs AI Axis AAR I put up there is a long discussion of how to use to your advantage - it basically replaces super depots and thus frees up the rail repair units. BUT, the intermediate depot must be separated from the task of immediately supplying combat units

so you could be wasting quite a lot of admin pts, doesn't matter come late 1942 but they are a constraint in 1941. If the railyard is not going to be sending out freight (or entraining combat units) its less important. You can offset the effect of damage in terms of storage/usage capacity often by simply leaving an Army level HQ on the hex - which you can do readily as you advance as the axis side?



Stamb -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (11/7/2021 11:50:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

Sometimes it is, especially for key cities with large rail yards that you want repaired ASAP.

Otherwise you are dependent on the logistics AI to eventually get around to it. In many cases, it doesn't for several turns... if then.

Prioritizing a specific factory to repair does 2 things -
* it is another hint to the AI to add construction engineers (which does not always happen)
* and prioritizes that factory repair over others...


I was playing smaller scenarios as an Axis and i had situations that there are plenty construction units in the OKH that are doing nothing even if i specify priority repairs.
If i am not mistaken then price of priority repair is the same as manual assignment - 1 AP.
But manual assignment guarantees that at least 1 construction unit will be working on a given target.

So the only advantage of using priority repairs is that it might be possible that AI might assign more than 1 construction unit to repair things in cost of 1 AP? But you have to pray for RNG...



overkill01 -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (12/18/2021 6:11:02 AM)


Another (stupid?) question on this topic.


Is it best to keep some depos at some priority (1 - 4?) between the NSS and frontline ?
So for example a depot lvl 3 every 25-30 hexes from Berlin to the front ?


Or I guess I should ask, are trains from a RY 2+ used when there is no depo (wich is being used 1-4) in range (30 hexes) ?

And, how can I tell if trains from a certain RY are being used ?



DeletedUser44 -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (12/18/2021 7:04:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: overkill01


Another (stupid?) question on this topic.


Is it best to keep some depos at some priority (1 - 4?) between the NSS and frontline ?



You need to have intermediate depots.

Given that, your NSS should be a P0, and your frontline depot should be a P4.

then you should have something like:

P0 < P[x] < P4

where:

0 < x < 4

it doesn't matter what x is set to as long as it is greater than 0 and less than 4, that is, if you want to move freight toward the frontline depot.





DeletedUser44 -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (12/18/2021 7:07:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: overkill01


Another (stupid?) question on this topic.

So for example a depot lvl 3 every 25-30 hexes from Berlin to the front ?



I would probably do 10-15 hexes myself, as a minimum range.



DeletedUser44 -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (12/18/2021 7:10:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: overkill01

Or I guess I should ask, are trains from a RY 2+ used when there is no depo (wich is being used 1-4) in range (30 hexes) ?



does a bear farting in the woods make a sound if no-one is around to hear it?

sounds philosophical to me. don't think I am qualified to answer those kind of questions.



DeletedUser44 -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (12/18/2021 7:14:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: overkill01

And, how can I tell if trains from a certain RY are being used ?



wouldn't that be nice if we could?

i think, you may be able to infer the info by going into rail-movement mode ( F2 ) and then mouse over various railroad depots.

Or, at least I think it is hinted in the manual. I couldn't seem to glean anything particularly useful.



overkill01 -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (12/18/2021 7:41:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II


quote:

ORIGINAL: overkill01


Another (stupid?) question on this topic.

So for example a depot lvl 3 every 25-30 hexes from Berlin to the front ?



I would probably do 10-15 hexes myself, as a minimum range.



So even if you don't need them, just so the trains go out ?

For example:
Berlin prio 0 and then 1, 1,..., 1, 1, 2, 3, 4
While the 1's aren't being used (except for maybe an airport and a unit here and there)




DeletedUser44 -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (12/18/2021 8:10:54 AM)

even if you don't think you need, you really do.

there will be intervals where the freight does not have enough SPP left and will have to look for the next closest depot, along the path, until next turn.



overkill01 -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (12/18/2021 8:15:46 AM)

Thank you



DeletedUser44 -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (12/18/2021 8:18:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: overkill01

For example:
Berlin prio 0 and then 1, 1,..., 1, 1, 2, 3, 4
While the 1's aren't being used (except for maybe an airport and a unit here and there)



Yep, that is the general gist of it. The incrementing depot priorities direct the overall flow of freight.

When I build depots, I press the 'L' and that enables the map-factory overlay.

I look for the hexes with rail-yards and only place depots in those hexes, unless I have no other choice.



Yogol -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (12/18/2021 8:34:18 AM)

>> are trains from a RY 2+ used when there is no depo (which is being used 1-4) in range (30 hexes) ?

I don't think so.

But that should never happen, because...
- Every railyard within 30 hexes of a national supply sources is used by the national supply source
- Every railyard within 30 hexes of a depot that supplies a troop is used by that depot
- And when your troop are far away from your national supply source, you should build intermediate depots between a) the national supply source and b) the depots that supply the troops.

Those intermediate depots work best if they are more than 30 hexes from any troop that needs supply (else they might accidently supply that troop and use lots and lots of trucks to do so).

And for optimisation: place those intermediate depots on an airfield and place the transport planes on it, so that you can lift freight from those intermediate depots to a depot at the front that has an airfield (or a unit on an airfield, but that's rare; either way, try to avoid lifting freight to a place without an airfield).




overkill01 -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (12/18/2021 8:41:10 AM)

Thank you both, very helpfull info



loki100 -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (12/18/2021 11:01:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

even if you don't think you need, you really do.

there will be intervals where the freight does not have enough SPP left and will have to look for the next closest depot, along the path, until next turn.


it depends how the train is used.

by design, freight doesn't retain the 'train' so all the discussions in the other thread

units do, till you detrain them and that allocation is indeed deducted from a rail yard somewhere.

Is it easy to find the relevant railyard - no as it could feasibly be a combination in the 30 hex range but a good test is one of those turns when something like 2+ mot/pzr divisions turn up at Berlin. Usually they will grab their trains from the Berlin hex and this will have less trains for a couple of turns till those units release their trains



loki100 -> RE: Railyards and freight movment (12/18/2021 11:03:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogol

>> are trains from a RY 2+ used when there is no depo (which is being used 1-4) in range (30 hexes) ?

I don't think so.

But that should never happen, because...
- Every railyard within 30 hexes of a national supply sources is used by the national supply source
- Every railyard within 30 hexes of a depot that supplies a troop is used by that depot
- And when your troop are far away from your national supply source, you should build intermediate depots between a) the national supply source and b) the depots that supply the troops.

Those intermediate depots work best if they are more than 30 hexes from any troop that needs supply (else they might accidently supply that troop and use lots and lots of trucks to do so).

And for optimisation: place those intermediate depots on an airfield and place the transport planes on it, so that you can lift freight from those intermediate depots to a depot at the front that has an airfield (or a unit on an airfield, but that's rare; either way, try to avoid lifting freight to a place without an airfield).




yes, railyard size (& thus train production) is independent of depot status/existence

30 hexes is excessive as a minimum, I reckon >10 disengages a depot from immediate unit supply - this assumes a decent front line depot network so its situational



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