why get heavy armor units get sooo much supression from HE shelling. please explain!! (Full Version)

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nexus -> why get heavy armor units get sooo much supression from HE shelling. please explain!! (7/17/2001 1:51:00 AM)

hello. played my first e-mail game with 6.1 i have panther tanks that where under shelling from some 81 and 60 mm. few 105 mm,too. this panther getīs so much supression that it even canīt move backwards or shoot. it was not damaged. itīs NOT realistic in that way,īcause crew of heavy armor wonīt just stay where they were,instead driving there tank out of the sight of the enemy. it does not matter how much sup. they get....no real tank (not damaged) would stay where it is and just wait for the killing shot........and as i remember there was not even a direct hit to the tank. do you think thatīs okay???



nexus -> (7/17/2001 1:56:00 AM)

sorry for my bad english,by the way. ps: it was a rough hex as i remember right.......



New York Jets -> (7/17/2001 2:23:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by nexus: sorry for my bad english,by the way. ps: it was a rough hex as i remember right.......
Don't sweat it. Many people who were born here don't even speak it as well as you do. And they never even apologize for it.



panda124c -> (7/17/2001 2:28:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by nexus: hello. played my first e-mail game with 6.1 i have panther tanks that where under shelling from some 81 and 60 mm. few 105 mm,too. this panther getīs so much supression that it even canīt move backwards or shoot. it was not damaged. itīs NOT realistic in that way,īcause crew of heavy armor wonīt just stay where they were,instead driving there tank out of the sight of the enemy. it does not matter how much sup. they get....no real tank (not damaged) would stay where it is and just wait for the killing shot........and as i remember there was not even a direct hit to the tank. do you think thatīs okay???
The only explanation I have is how would it feel if you were in as steel box and someone was beating on the outside with a large sledge hammer. Demorilizing at the least and bad for the hearing. :eek:



BigDuke66 -> (7/17/2001 2:50:00 AM)

Good question, what did the guys do? I would say 1. Get out of the tank and run home :D or 2. Drive the tank home :D But i would definitely not stay there and wait for the final BANG [ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: BigDuke66 ]



nexus -> (7/17/2001 2:54:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by pbear: The only explanation I have is how would it feel if you were in as steel box and someone was beating on the outside with a large sledge hammer. Demorilizing at the least and bad for the hearing. :eek:
i would run away. which means driving my tank back in rear area. but in the game that was not possible īcause they had so much suppression that they couldnīt do anything. and were finally killed at low distance side armor shot by sherman. damn,i hate US artillery support!



Bing -> (7/17/2001 3:01:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by nexus: i would run away. which means driving my tank back in rear area. but in the game that was not possible īcause they had so much suppression that they couldnīt do anything. and were finally killed at low distance side armor shot by sherman. damn,i hate US artillery support!
That's why the game has preference settings. Turn down the arty vs armor setting, that should do it. Bing



nexus -> (7/17/2001 3:07:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Trog: Don't sweat it. Many people who were born here don't even speak it as well as you do. And they never even apologize for it.
yes my english insīt that bad. i visited england some time ago and could speak quite good with the people. a little story for you: we were in a pub and there were some older english men who were talking about us,as i figured out. the waiter explained me why: german bombers had attacked this coastal town in ww2. he showed me some photographs...bad...but not as bad as my hometown (siegen) was bombed by us - bombers 44 and 45. nice old buildings destroyed and many civilians dead. but i have nothing against american ppl.,because i know this was past. we should bury the past and donīt hate any other person for something his fatherīs had done. if on the good side (allies) or the bad (nazis). i like playing wargames,but i donīt like war or any form of violence. ppl. who do riots on the streets should better play SPAW instead.



nexus -> (7/17/2001 3:14:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Bing: That's why the game has preference settings. Turn down the arty vs armor setting, that should do it. Bing
i generally donīt chance these kind of settings in these type of games (strategy/wargames)....i just adjust difficulty levels in 3d shooters,īcause iīm not very good at them *g* ps: anyone played "NO ONE LIVES FOREVER" ?? i think itīs cool.not that kind of game in this you must shoot at anything what moves. and i like agent archer,as well.



Rhodan -> (7/17/2001 3:58:00 AM)

Never been a tankjockey but I can imagine that , as posted above, when HE explosives start exploding on and around your tank that you become incredibly rattled and shocked..shellshocked possible. Even though the armor itself may not be penetrated there is still a lot of kinetic energy banging on that steel around you, I can imagine the tank itself is shocking due to the shockwaves, things are falling inside, maybe gauges get bust, pipes burst open, sensory nerves get overloaded due to the loud noise etc etc. Perhaps a good way to simulate this would be to put a steel bucket over your head and ask someone and a totally unsuspected moment , to start banging on that bucket with a wooden spoon...even though the spoon will never penetrate the bucket (ofcourse not) the noise inside will be loud enough to prevent you from forming some coherent thoughts for a period of time. Shock is a weird thing..and contagious like hell in the right conditions. [ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: Rhodan ]



Wild Bill -> (7/17/2001 3:58:00 AM)

Nexus, everything I read and having talked with various tank commanders personally from Korea onward, artillery barrages are fearful things, even in a tank. Contrary to popular opinion, it does strike terror in the hearts of those within. One old tanker, author of a few books on tank warfare confided that heavy shelling was enough to make one pee his drawers sometimes, INSIDE the tank. Many books recount how tankers were stunned, deafened or worse from the incessant slamming of 105mm and higher shells all around them and hitting their tank. Only one who has been there I guess would really know what it feels like. I do believe the suppressions are correct for hits and near misses. Wild Bill



Bonzo -> (7/17/2001 11:30:00 AM)

As for how to get them to run away when staying put will get them killed, turn off Auto-Rally in the preference screen and do not rally them. when they get scared enough, they will generally run away. If they are allowed to rally just a little bit each turn, they are still to scared to obey orders to move, but not scared enough to run away. Use the tools at your disposal to manipulate your troops. If your stirring words of encouragement will not get them to gallantly withdraw, perhaps you should be silent and let them realize they are all alone an a world of hurt is coming & leave it to them to decide when to "bug out". :D :D



panda124c -> (7/17/2001 6:28:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by nexus: yes my english insīt that bad. i visited england some time ago and could speak quite good with the people.
Ah but you are speaking to a bunch of Yanks, we don't speak the same English. Churchill refered to the English and the Americans as two people seperated by a common language. The rest of the world understands you just fine. :D [ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ]



Belisarius -> (7/17/2001 10:46:00 PM)

Just thinking: You're inside a tank, no matter how big and mighty. All of a sudden shells start to fall around you, if not striking dead on, at least shower your tank with shrapnel, dirt, pebbles and stuff. Now, can you tell a 81mm mortar from a 150mm shell? I guess I would be at least a bit suppressed. But then again, I've never been inside a tank. (bad eyesight intervened with my plan to make it to tank commander..or my mandatory army service in general ;) )



parusski -> (7/17/2001 11:18:00 PM)

Hello nexus, Bonzo is correct use the tools in preferences to make slight adjustments. I have done so many times-at least when I first started playing this game a loooong time ago. Wild Bill and Rhodan are right. Imagine the noise, vibration and horror of being inside a steel coffin when all those shells land on you-wondering if the next one might kill you.



nexus -> (7/18/2001 3:42:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Belisarius: Just thinking: You're inside a tank, no matter how big and mighty. All of a sudden shells start to fall around you, if not striking dead on, at least shower your tank with shrapnel, dirt, pebbles and stuff. Now, can you tell a 81mm mortar from a 150mm shell? I guess I would be at least a bit suppressed. But then again, I've never been inside a tank. (bad eyesight intervened with my plan to make it to tank commander..or my mandatory army service in general ;) )
yes,i think i now understand it better. THANX guys. i was in a tank years ago, i think it was a leopard 1 or 2. canīt remember but it was not very comfortable,as iīm quite tall. it was a show from the bundeswehr at my hometown - very interesting. esp. because in my active military duty,i donīt even see a single tank (except an old one as target for panzerfaust at training range). thatīs because i was by the air force (radar and such stuff...). cool,did you ever been in a nato command bunker?? looked like houston or so.........



nexus -> (7/18/2001 3:45:00 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bonzo: [QB]As for how to get them to run away when staying put will get them killed, turn off Auto-Rally in the preference screen and do not rally them. when they get scared enough, they will generally run away. If they are allowed to rally just a little bit each turn, they are still to scared to obey orders to move, but not scared enough to run away. good idea i havenīt think of.........i will try it.



rcread -> (7/18/2001 7:06:00 AM)

Can you tell the difference between an 81 and a 150mm shell? The former weighs less than 10lbs, and makes a little tiny pop when it detonates (more like Steel 3 than SPWAW). 150 rounds weigh 75-100lbs, and make the earth shake for miles. 81's don't even leave craters, just knock down the plants and stir up dust. 150's kill all unprotected flesh in 50m. So, yes, even in a tank (or from inside an SPG), you can tell the difference, believe me.



Belisarius -> (7/18/2001 11:08:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Cracker: Can you tell the difference between an 81 and a 150mm shell? The former weighs less than 10lbs, and makes a little tiny pop when it detonates (more like Steel 3 than SPWAW). 150 rounds weigh 75-100lbs, and make the earth shake for miles. 81's don't even leave craters, just knock down the plants and stir up dust. 150's kill all unprotected flesh in 50m. So, yes, even in a tank (or from inside an SPG), you can tell the difference, believe me.
Splitting hairs. I KNOW it's a difference between the two. I was just making a comparison to explain my point. Sheesh.



murx -> (7/19/2001 9:49:00 AM)

Tank tactics under artillery fire either backwards maximum speed or forward maximum speed, at least that is what tankers learn - and tank tactics are still the same since WWII (with the exception that combined arms and c3 is better). So if it was possible to have a tank under arty loose all his shots but remain 1/2 - 2/3 of his movement that would be the best solution, but I guess the negine doesn't give it ... murx



Bulldog61 -> (7/19/2001 11:12:00 AM)

Murx is correct. I commanded Armored units Platoon thru Company in Germany from 78 thru 86. The training was 1. Button-Up 2.Mask 3. Move Out! As an ROTC cadet at UCLA in the mid seventies I had an instructor who had his M48 take a 152HE hit on the front slope. The crew survived but they were all concussed and were bleeding from the nose and ears. It could have been worse, they could have been infantry!



Nemesis -> (7/19/2001 4:31:00 PM)

Explosions outside the tank can be deadly even if they don't actually damage the tank itself. During the Winter War when Soviets started their massive attack to breach the Mannerheim-line, they used ALOT of guns to support the attack (If I remember correctly, it was the biggest artillery bombardment the world had seen up untill that point). When they managed to breach The Line, they noticed that some of the biggest bunkers were undamaged, but the soldiers inside were dead. The reason was that those bunkers got pounded for hours by some VERY big guns. They didn't damage the bunkers, but the noise and the shockwaves were bad enough to kill the occupants.



Jasper -> (7/20/2001 12:24:00 AM)

Clink and Clank on ur tank and u dont even dont know when a direct hit is going to come. U are basically in a metal coffin and waiting for a direct hit into ur open hatch...isnt that suppression. Do u think u are going to see what is out there or pray it is not going to hit into ur hatch???? If u are in a trench or pill box, a heavy artillery of 152 or 150 or even 203 didnt even need to get a direct hit, the pressure from the explosion is enough to burst ur lung and u die........ :D :D Fighting in Built Up Area or FIBUA, we use alot of grenades, in fact, we use one nearly every room, the explosion need not to kill u but it sure deaf u.....u will bleed from ur ear.....and the shock is enough to let me go in and kill u.... :D 81 motar are still used up todate....do u know why.....it is not that it kill accurate and kill alot but it sure an infantry heavy artillery.....Panther is a good tank on its frontal but nearly every tank used in the war is weak on its top except some heavies like the tiger which is a different story... When u are bombard and u are in a tank....how do u know it is a small artillery that hitting u.....every shell that near miss u sound so loud and huge....



rcread -> (7/21/2001 2:07:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Belisarius: Splitting hairs. I KNOW it's a difference between the two. I was just making a comparison to explain my point. Sheesh.
Sorry. I'll settle down.



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