Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (Full Version)

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Zovs -> Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (11/16/2021 3:07:12 PM)

Attached is my attempt at codifying what metaphore and jubjub did in the thread located here:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5079430

Part of the intro...

This document was based off a thread that ‘metaphore’ and ‘jubjub’ participated on at Matrix Games Forum called “Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips” (see link reference at the end of this document). I wanted to ‘codify’ their efforts and in the process, I have tweaked their efforts quite a bit to get the most optimal results I could based on my experiences and end goals. My main goal was to keep the Axis losses low (between 80-160 airframes and under 100 pilots KIA) and to eliminate as much of the VVS on the ground as possible (3,000-3,800 aircraft with anything over 600 pilots KIA from just the first turn ground attacks on airfields).

...Hope this helps some folks...


Download file here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cj5Npn3cOEN1jGP9Fq_nQXBBeenitsDe/view?usp=sharing



Zovs -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (11/16/2021 7:55:28 PM)

Drats! Found one error on page 23 for Luftflotte 4 #7 the Target Hex should be Zhitomir (205,177) and not hex (203,177)!

I'll create a version 1.2 later today/tonight.



Zovs -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (11/16/2021 9:24:13 PM)

Found a few more errors and I found a a better way for a few of the AD's so going to revamp those and repost the document tomorrow.



Zovs -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (11/17/2021 12:19:47 PM)

Okay, all known issues have been addressed. I have reorder some of the AD as this does matter with regards to Axis air losses.

To date this is the best I have been able to achieve with regards to Axis airframe to Soviet airframe losses and Axis Pilots KIA to Soviet Pilots KIA.

Very please with my results and will be using this in my next PBEM.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/EhWuGDhh.png[/img]



56ajax -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (11/18/2021 3:01:40 AM)

Thanks very much for this. I will have hours of fun.

Q. What is the policy on Follow Path, Y/N?



56ajax -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (11/18/2021 4:10:14 AM)

And this Loadout

PZL 37B: to 2x 250kg GPHE Bomb and 18x 100kg GPHE Bomb

This is the only configuration allowed for this aircraft anyway or have I missed something.



OberGeneral -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (11/18/2021 2:49:46 PM)

Thank you.[&o][&o]
This is awesome!

I am setting up a test run now!!



actrade -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (11/18/2021 2:56:55 PM)

This is very, very helpful. I was following that thread for a long time, but I can't go back and read it every time I set up an GC. Thanks a lot! Next request...the same detail and pictures for setting up your SUs! Combined, this would be the perfect "template" save for a German GC41 game. Once the template save is saved, you can start GC's without the hours of repetitive setup. Mind you, it's not that I'm lazy setting up my own (as I've done it many times), but rather I want to see EXACTLY how good players set their SUs up. And I'm not talking generalities like "put so many arty SU into each inf corp, so many per armored group." Rather, I'm talking in depth. For example, 1. how many and which type of arty/flak where and why that type? 2. How many do you leave in OKH or the OGs for the arrival or new units and the formation of 2nd army? Where do you put those SUs once these units are arrive on map? I'm sure there are many of us unskilled players who are curious as to how this initial SU set up is done. I'm also curious as to where/when/how they bring their reserves on map.

For those of you highly skilled players, I think it would be great to have a library of these setups. Think of them like classic chess opening moves that the less skilled could try and see how it fits their own playstyle.

Joel, I think this would be a great addition prior to the release on Steam if new players could go into the steam workshop and download (for example) X Player's set up for a drive on Leningrad, or X Player's set up for an early drive on Moscow, or early capture of Rostov or just an all-around opening move set up. This would flatten the learning curve quite a bit for new players. I know that WiTE2 has already done that with all of the improved AI controls, but this would be a nice resource for those wanting to get their feet wet with more advanced control. Cheers.



OberGeneral -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (11/18/2021 5:10:45 PM)

Great suggetions!



Zovs -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (11/18/2021 6:18:26 PM)

Correction:

quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

Thanks very much for this. I will have hours of fun.

Q. What is the policy on Follow Path, Y/N?


Your welcome.

What happens is when you select a target hex the computer plots a path, if you change path (to avoid flak for instance), then Follow Path changes to Yes.


quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

And this Loadout

PZL 37B: to 2x 250kg GPHE Bomb and 18x 100kg GPHE Bomb

This is the only configuration allowed for this aircraft anyway or have I missed something.


No your not, I was just being a 'completist'



Zovs -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (11/18/2021 6:18:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OberGeneral

Thank you.[&o][&o]
This is awesome!

I am setting up a test run now!!


You are most welcome.



Zovs -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (11/18/2021 6:26:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: actrade

This is very, very helpful. I was following that thread for a long time, but I can't go back and read it every time I set up an GC. Thanks a lot! Next request...the same detail and pictures for setting up your SUs! Combined, this would be the perfect "template" save for a German GC41 game. Once the template save is saved, you can start GC's without the hours of repetitive setup. Mind you, it's not that I'm lazy setting up my own (as I've done it many times), but rather I want to see EXACTLY how good players set their SUs up. And I'm not talking generalities like "put so many arty SU into each inf corp, so many per armored group." Rather, I'm talking in depth. For example, 1. how many and which type of arty/flak where and why that type? 2. How many do you leave in OKH or the OGs for the arrival or new units and the formation of 2nd army? Where do you put those SUs once these units are arrive on map? I'm sure there are many of us unskilled players who are curious as to how this initial SU set up is done. I'm also curious as to where/when/how they bring their reserves on map.

For those of you highly skilled players, I think it would be great to have a library of these setups. Think of them like classic chess opening moves that the less skilled could try and see how it fits their own playstyle.

Joel, I think this would be a great addition prior to the release on Steam if new players could go into the steam workshop and download (for example) X Player's set up for a drive on Leningrad, or X Player's set up for an early drive on Moscow, or early capture of Rostov or just an all-around opening move set up. This would flatten the learning curve quite a bit for new players. I know that WiTE2 has already done that with all of the improved AI controls, but this would be a nice resource for those wanting to get their feet wet with more advanced control. Cheers.


Thank you.

The main problem is there is no way to currently save any of these setups. That would have to be added to the code somehow.

Secondly, when playing PBEM or MP you can't load a save game file, so without a way to load a template you'll just have to set these up for each PBEM/MP game.

Regarding SU's that is outside the scope of this document and from what I can tell everyone does it a little different. A better way to address this would be for someone to create a thread in the War Room listing the pros and cons of directly attaching to a division, corps, army or army group and the other things you mentioned.



56ajax -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (11/19/2021 4:43:24 AM)

Just as an aside the air unit transfer interface is a touch flakey - it took me 20 tries to get 8th Rum FG to Husi and it took the 7th with it. (I had the same problem when setting up metaphores ADs.) All the other transfers worked fine.



DeletedUser44 -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (11/20/2021 8:09:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

Just as an aside the air unit transfer interface is a touch flakey - it took me 20 tries to get 8th Rum FG to Husi and it took the 7th with it. (I had the same problem when setting up metaphores ADs.) All the other transfers worked fine.



The air transfers are currently flaky. There are a couple of different ways to do it, depending on how you select the destination airbase.

Sometimes, I have to save the game and reload it in order for ac airbase transfers to fully work.



PeteJC -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (12/18/2021 6:17:43 PM)

Has anyone looked at the results with the .11 patch?



Stamb -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (12/18/2021 6:28:14 PM)

I was looking at his setup as a base and with a little changes i got 5k Soviets planes. Unfortunately naval patrol and priority does not work together so i got a pretty big hit during naval patrol missions. I think i lost 250 planes in total.



GibsonPete -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (12/19/2021 3:50:55 PM)

An exceptionally well prepared and useful document. Thank you. [&o]



MishaTX -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (12/24/2021 4:41:00 AM)

First of all, let me give you a million +1s for putting the time into this. It has made my life so much easier when it comes to setting up the Turn 1 Axis air offensive without losing my mind over making individual directives for every single Soviet air base, which is what I used to do!

Quibbles? Of course I have some, I'm an "expert", after all [;)] (not even slightly).

I thought the altitude setting of 5000 ft for the ground attacks was odd since I seem to recall that there's something about dive bombers not really being as efficient below 9000, and you do have a lot of those at hand on Turn 1. I may misremember or it may no longer be the case, but when I changed that (after an initial few test runs where I went by the numbers on your setup), my losses inflicted did seem to go up by several hundred dead Soviet planes.

On the other hand, the "Kiev Run", which I thought initially to be completely insane, actually turns out to be well worth it in my opinion. Sure, I lose about 30 or so planes there but, since they're level bombers which, in my opinion, don't matter that much for the rest of the game as this, unlike WitW, is not an Air War game, I really don't care that much. They took out quite a few reds in return. And the sequence in the South with the Romanians going for Ochakov first instead of Odessa first actually works much better than my idea, which was to attack Odessa first. Good call! (I ran quite a few tests).

Finally, your setup in the text includes two different attacks on the Brody airfield, but the summary screenshot shows that it's not there, instead there is an attack on Izyaslavl. The text setup is, in my opinion, superior since Brody is well worth an extra sweep with their fighters, and Izyaslavl is pretty much irrelevant since the planes there are bombers which will get cut to ribbons subsequently if they try to get past the LW anyway, I just thought it might help if you adjusted the screenshot for the sakes of easily confused clowns like me [:D]

Summary: As a result of all of your work with a few modifications as mentioned above now results in 3500 to 3900 Soviet losses in exchange for 150-200 Axis, 75% of which are level bombers which I don't care much about after turn 1 anyways, so, in conclusion, thanks again a million times! [&o]



Zovs -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (12/24/2021 8:30:49 AM)

Thanks again all for all the nice comments, really glad this document has helped a bit.



Stamb -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (12/24/2021 9:02:58 AM)

Thanks for a manual Zovs. It helped a lot!



Fraggo5 -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (12/24/2021 9:45:43 AM)

Just downloaded this to use on the start of my next GC kicking off fairly soon. Thanks for the time and effort you have put into this Zovs to give us all an edge in our GC's it's much appreciated
[sm=00000436.gif]



loki100 -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (12/24/2021 10:24:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MishaTX

...
I thought the altitude setting of 5000 ft for the ground attacks was odd since I seem to recall that there's something about dive bombers not really being as efficient below 9000, and you do have a lot of those at hand on Turn 1. I may misremember or it may no longer be the case, but when I changed that (after an initial few test runs where I went by the numbers on your setup), my losses inflicted did seem to go up by several hundred dead Soviet planes.
...


the cut off altitude is 5k, at or above they dive to 1k for the actual attack so its a good choice

overall, really impressive bit of analysis



MishaTX -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (12/24/2021 9:36:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

the cut off altitude is 5k, at or above they dive to 1k for the actual attack so its a good choice

overall, really impressive bit of analysis


As always: Thanks, Loki! I don't know where my aging brain got the 9000 from. Just RNG, then.

And I agree: Zovs did one HECK of a job with this guide!



actrade -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (12/25/2021 2:25:52 AM)

Used this for the first time today....almost 3500 kills and just 157 losses...very, very impressive work and thank you!



Simon Edmonds -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (1/3/2022 12:11:44 AM)

Followed your air instructions for turn 1. Killed just over 4100 air units on the latest version. These instructions will be my start from now on. Thanks for your time and effort.

PS. I wonder if strategy gaming dojo would do an episode on this?



CTKnudsen -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (1/4/2022 4:30:06 PM)

Thanks Zov, this is great - While I wasn't able to hit 4000, I had a very decent opening.

One question - what do you use for doctrine settings after T1?

Thanks!



Teo41_ITA -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (1/4/2022 5:59:01 PM)

I could also do an episode on my channel about this! [;)]



alty59 -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (1/6/2022 4:30:14 PM)

Following patch 1.02.13 Husi airbase, the pivot of many rumanian air command raids, no longer exists on the map (not built before 1943) do you plan to adjust your directives?

Anyway great job zovs many many thanks.



Zovs -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (1/6/2022 5:27:28 PM)

Yes I’ll have to revisit my document and update.

From T2 onwards it’s situational dependent. Mostly I set GS and create Recon missions and will run Naval Patrols when needed. If I do NP I generally like to do 1) Recon 2) Air Superiority 3) Naval Patrol.




OberGeneral -> RE: Manually running the Axis first turn Ground Attack on the VVS for 1941 (1/7/2022 4:15:30 PM)

I am running v 1.02.13 and changed Husi airport staging airport to Tecuci.

This is my best result so far.






[image]local://upfiles/60723/C00BC935225C43EAB54D0A9CED2DEB18.jpg[/image]



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