Japan DoW on USSR? (Full Version)

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redrum68 -> Japan DoW on USSR? (11/17/2021 1:58:23 AM)

Is there any mobilization penalties for Japan DoW on USSR once Germany does? It doesn't appear so from what I can tell which seems odd as I would think the US and many others would react. Seems there isn't really any reason Japan shouldn't DoW on USSR once Germany does...



ThunderLizard11 -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/17/2021 3:24:03 AM)

Yes - wait until US is in war otherwise significant jump in mobilization.



redrum68 -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/17/2021 3:48:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2
Yes - wait until US is in war otherwise significant jump in mobilization.


Are you sure? There doesn't seem to be. Do you know how much and when?



firsteds -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/17/2021 10:47:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2
Yes - wait until US is in war otherwise significant jump in mobilization.


Are you sure? There doesn't seem to be. Do you know how much and when?


+1. I have been wondering the same thing. In 2 recent MP games Japan DoWs USSR in same move as Barbarossa or move afterwards. Attacks Vladivistok by land. No major jump in US mobilisation. HOWEVER there is a subsequent jump in US mobilisation related to 'fighting in Siberia' or something like that but it seemed to be much later.

Very interested in an answer on this. Tricky for the USSR to fight on two fronts in early 1941.



BillRunacre -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/17/2021 12:36:36 PM)

US mobilization responds to Axis advances into Siberia, rather than to the declaration of war itself, and it will swing the US 5-8% per turn towards the Allies.

Any response should be pretty swift, e.g. the presence of just one Axis land or air unit within 1 hex of Vladivostok will be enough to trigger it.




redrum68 -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/17/2021 1:53:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre
US mobilization responds to Axis advances into Siberia, rather than to the declaration of war itself, and it will swing the US 5-8% per turn towards the Allies.

Any response should be pretty swift, e.g. the presence of just one Axis land or air unit within 1 hex of Vladivostok will be enough to trigger it.


Hey Bill. There is a problem with this check being the only penalty for Japan. Japan can instead of moving ground units into Siberia (avoiding that check), can instead just bomb Siberia into oblivion causing significant damage while not having mobilization move up at all! This is particularly brutal if Japan bombs the towns/cities west of where the Russian Siberian forces spawn as they then can't operate to the Eastern Front and are delayed several turns while they force march in potentially low supply (destroying their morale) til they get far enough west past the bombed out towns/cities. These are the best HQ and 5 units (4 armies + heavy tanks) that USSR has in 1941 and without them there really isn't anyway to even slow the Germans down. USSR can maybe try to use some form of AA/fighters to mitigate this a bit but they don't have the tech levels to compete with Japan or MPP to afford being able to spend it on 2 fronts in 1941.

Ultimately, I see this a pretty gamey as its avoiding the particular Siberia mobilization check as Japan gets no penalty for declaring war in early/mid 1941 on USSR while still causing significant damage to them and is pretty unhistorical. But if this is standard play that everyone does then I guess it is what it is.



BillRunacre -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/17/2021 3:15:04 PM)

I understand, it's just that as things stand there isn't a way in the scripts to specify exactly which country has declared war on the USSR, so a more generalized approach is the only one available, i.e. it looks for movements across the border and penalizes those accordingly, and is currently the best we can offer.



redrum68 -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/17/2021 3:27:00 PM)

In that case, these Siberian units are close to worthless for 1941 so I would recommend moving the Siberian units spawn further west or add more USSR units somewhere that can be operated to the Eastern Front. Since as its sits now, this will probably become standard play for MP games and makes the already difficult task of slowing down the Germans in 1941 close to impossible.

Hopefully I'm missing something and would like to hear others thoughts but it seems pretty grim to me.



petedalby -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/17/2021 4:04:13 PM)

quote:

Ultimately, I see this a pretty gamey as its avoiding the particular Siberia mobilization check as Japan gets no penalty for declaring war in early/mid 1941 on USSR while still causing significant damage to them and is pretty unhistorical. But if this is standard play that everyone does then I guess it is what it is


I agree that it is gamey but I've never seen it done. Who pulled it on you? Just 1 player or multiple players?



redrum68 -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/17/2021 7:17:32 PM)

quote:

I agree that it is gamey but I've never seen it done. Who pulled it on you? Just 1 player or multiple players?


Just 1 good elo player so far though I have only played a handful of MP games so small sample size. But my assumption is that player either got it from another player or figured it out and either way will probably always do it given there really isn't any good counter or downside. Without any game changes or house rules, I'll probably look to do it every game as its very beneficial.



Marcinos1985 -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/17/2021 8:25:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre
US mobilization responds to Axis advances into Siberia, rather than to the declaration of war itself, and it will swing the US 5-8% per turn towards the Allies.

Any response should be pretty swift, e.g. the presence of just one Axis land or air unit within 1 hex of Vladivostok will be enough to trigger it.


Hey Bill. There is a problem with this check being the only penalty for Japan. Japan can instead of moving ground units into Siberia (avoiding that check), can instead just bomb Siberia into oblivion causing significant damage while not having mobilization move up at all! This is particularly brutal if Japan bombs the towns/cities west of where the Russian Siberian forces spawn as they then can't operate to the Eastern Front and are delayed several turns while they force march in potentially low supply (destroying their morale) til they get far enough west past the bombed out towns/cities. These are the best HQ and 5 units (4 armies + heavy tanks) that USSR has in 1941 and without them there really isn't anyway to even slow the Germans down. USSR can maybe try to use some form of AA/fighters to mitigate this a bit but they don't have the tech levels to compete with Japan or MPP to afford being able to spend it on 2 fronts in 1941.

Ultimately, I see this a pretty gamey as its avoiding the particular Siberia mobilization check as Japan gets no penalty for declaring war in early/mid 1941 on USSR while still causing significant damage to them and is pretty unhistorical. But if this is standard play that everyone does then I guess it is what it is.


That's very interesting. I have 40 games as Allies, more than 10 against players from TOP 5 ELO and I never saw that. Could you describe more what is going on?:
1. Do GER and JAP DOW on the same turn?
2. With what does JAP bomb? 1 STR? 2?
3. Which city is bombed and to what level?
4. Does USSR fighter intercept?

I am asking, because most USSR units spawn around Irkutsk/Ulan Ude, which has to be bombed below 5 to prevent railing them away. With 1 STR bomber it's not that easy to do, especially if RUS fighter intercepts.

Despite all of this, I wholehaertedly agree that an ahistorical scenario of Japan DOWing USSR is too common and too strong at the same time. It was many times mentioned that JAP gets so much stuff for free, they don't even have to take great measures to attack both SE Asia and USSR. IRL they had to choose, being already strained in China and in Syberia there was nothing wortwhile for them to take.

Funny fact, 3 years after release and new cheese strategies are coming to day light, how could one not love this game? [:)]



redrum68 -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/17/2021 8:56:04 PM)

quote:

That's very interesting. I have 40 games as Allies, more than 10 against players from TOP 5 ELO and I never saw that. Could you describe more what is going on?:
1. Do GER and JAP DOW on the same turn?
2. With what does JAP bomb? 1 STR? 2?
3. Which city is bombed and to what level?
4. Does USSR fighter intercept?

I am asking, because most USSR units spawn around Irkutsk/Ulan Ude, which has to be bombed below 5 to prevent railing them away. With 1 STR bomber it's not that easy to do, especially if RUS fighter intercepts.

Despite all of this, I wholehaertedly agree that an ahistorical scenario of Japan DOWing USSR is too common and too strong at the same time. It was many times mentioned that JAP gets so much stuff for free, they don't even have to take great measures to attack both SE Asia and USSR. IRL they had to choose, being already strained in China and in Syberia there was nothing wortwhile for them to take.

Funny fact, 3 years after release and new cheese strategies are coming to day light, how could one not love this game?


1. Yes
2. 1-2 Strategic Bombers. Probably could cut the settlement with just 1 but in this case the player used 2 to also hit the industrial center.
3. Tulun to below 5 so you can't operate units til they are west of it and then Irkutsk to below 5 so that Vladisvostok is only connected to a secondary supply so city/port fall to supply 5.
4. The fighter that spawns in Siberia does not intercept that first DoW turn so unless you moved a fighter there from the Eastern Front or built one there there won't be any interception.

Yeah, your point is a good one which is why its better to target Tulun (settlement) first compared to Irkutsk (city) as it has less max supply and 0 bomber defense. Though you'll need I think lvl 2 long range to reach it.



petedalby -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/18/2021 1:34:11 PM)

quote:

Just 1 good elo player so far


Well let's hope it stays that way. I regularly play Axis & I've never done this. It's the same flavour cheese as landing Japanese in Africa to get around the normal in game penalties.

Note to self if playing Allies: Operate a couple of AA guns to Tulun just in case?

Or agree to add it to the list of ELO rules?



Chernobyl -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/18/2021 2:23:19 PM)

I also think Japan probably shouldn't get a free heavy bombers unit like they do. You can use it to do crazy things against supply in China and now Russia apparently. Japan should probably get some other things for free (more CA and maritime bombers)



Taifun -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/18/2021 8:51:39 PM)

Generals and Commanders,

Most of you know me from my AARs. I am a WWII historian and I have been playing the SC series for more than 10 years. I have been ranked as nš2 for a few years in the WiE ELO games and in the top 5 WAW ELO for a while. I love this game. I like to play trustful players (until the reload bug is fixed and I fully agree with another veteran, Elvis JJonesRambo, that this is a big issue) and have been always avoiding gamely moves.

In recent games I found that the new Allied strategy of sending huge amount of British troops to France delayed the French surrender until September-October. This delayed Barbarossa until August 1941. So I planned in my last game a new strategy to delay the arrival of the Siberians to the Western front:

- Buy a second Japanese Strategic bomber and upgrade both to level 2-3 long-range.
- Attack the USSR with Japan simultaneously with Germany but without invading the USSR.
- On turn nš1 reduce Tulum to level 0. (August 1)
- On turn nš2 reduce Irkutsk to level 2. (August 30)
- In you are lucky on turn nš3 (September) you get clear weather and reduce again Tulum to level 0 and Ulan Ude to level 1.

The 4 new Siberian Armies should be by now in low supply and can't redeploy towards the West Front for a few turns.

Then the weather turns to rain/snow for many months.

I suggest to change the game and deploy the Siberians in Novosibirsk out of reach of Japanese bombers. Until then, this could be included (as suggested above) as a new ELO rule.

Best regards and good gaming,

Taifun



redrum68 -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/18/2021 9:10:12 PM)

Thanks Taifun for adding in the additional details on how you did it.



SittingDuck -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/19/2021 3:09:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

I understand, it's just that as things stand there isn't a way in the scripts to specify exactly which country has declared war on the USSR, so a more generalized approach is the only one available, i.e. it looks for movements across the border and penalizes those accordingly, and is currently the best we can offer.


If I understand it correctly, there are few conditional checks that we can do in a game other than location of units, and political status (mob level, alliance, surrender status).

This brings up the issue that a few things would vastly increase the capacity to fine tune scripting and so forth:

1) END dates for scripts (NOT after this date)
2) checks on (established) research levels

Things of that nature. As is, the conditional checks are few and it does cause restraints on behavioral options.



Marcinos1985 -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/19/2021 7:03:39 AM)

quote:

(until the reload bug is fixed and I fully agree with another veteran, Elvis JJonesRambo, that this is a big issue)

What is this bug? Was it introduced in new update?

quote:

I suggest to change the game and deploy the Siberians in Novosibirsk out of reach of Japanese bombers.

That's the easiest fix, but it doesn't touch the main issue. I believe game was not tested/balanced for a scenario "JAP DoWs USSR early". Axis AI almost certainly doesn't play like that. Problem is that Japan is in no way penalized for such a strategy. Yes, there is a script "Axis gains in Syberia", but now we have manual how to circumvent it. At the same time, they got so much stuff for free, that they are able to attack China, USSR and Pacific at the same time. IRL, China and Pacific proved to much. I undestand why they get so many units for free, otherwise AI would probably not play in the Pacific at all, but human players leverage those free resources.

Those are balance issues (or maybe not), but there is also an etiquette issue. Call me (very) naive, but I strongly believe players should refrain from abusing engine/scripts, because it simply destroys gaming experience and forces both players to play artificially, even in anticipation of weird things that may occur. You may of course house rule many things out, but soon both sides will come for a game with their lawyers. There are things like:
1. Usual ELO rules - no diplo on majors, no ussr dow in 1940, no Bulgaria diplo
2. Bringing all RN to Pacific and attacking JAP while they load troops on transport
3. Scouting with JAP fleet for other Axis powers
4. Blocking Red Sea with japanese ships
5. Bringing JAP SF to Africa in 1940
6. This new STR Bomber in Syberia 'strategy'
7. Atacking neutrals in Pacific by Allies to prevent JAP from taking them for free
8. 'All of France strategy' by dropping paras near Algiers (or was this fixed? That was serious issue, but not heard of this for some time)

I believe there are more. But do we really want to start each game by negotiating these points?
Funny thing, but most of them concern Axis. Allies are strongly penalized for going astray, for example point 2, US will get mobilization hit. Meanwhile, Axis may DOW everybody anytime and move quite freely on the map. Dynamics of the game would differ completely, if USSR could DOW JAP after all Kwantung army is sent to China, in exchange for few garrisons. Sadly, we may only watch.



petedalby -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/19/2021 12:08:03 PM)

Thanks for the explanation Taifun. I've just started a new game as the Axis and in December '39 I already see 2 UK armies in France with probably more to come. Your rationale on 'Action / Reaction' makes perfect sense.

I have no problem with the tactic if it's also combined with a land attack on the USSR by Japan to trigger the gain in US mobilisation.

To have a DoW without increasing US mobilisation is where it seems wrong to me.



redrum68 -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/19/2021 2:36:02 PM)

quote:

Those are balance issues (or maybe not), but there is also an etiquette issue. Call me (very) naive, but I strongly believe players should refrain from abusing engine/scripts, because it simply destroys gaming experience and forces both players to play artificially, even in anticipation of weird things that may occur. You may of course house rule many things out, but soon both sides will come for a game with their lawyers. There are things like:
1. Usual ELO rules - no diplo on majors, no ussr dow in 1940, no Bulgaria diplo
2. Bringing all RN to Pacific and attacking JAP while they load troops on transport
3. Scouting with JAP fleet for other Axis powers
4. Blocking Red Sea with japanese ships
5. Bringing JAP SF to Africa in 1940
6. This new STR Bomber in Syberia 'strategy'
7. Atacking neutrals in Pacific by Allies to prevent JAP from taking them for free
8. 'All of France strategy' by dropping paras near Algiers (or was this fixed? That was serious issue, but not heard of this for some time)

Agree. Most of the naval "scouting" issues can be fixed by putting more naval restriction zones for a few of the nations. For example:
- Italy should have a more restricted naval zone (essentially the Med) until they join the war (so they can't scout for Germany in the Atlantic)
- Japan should be restricted to just the pacific until they are at war with UK/US
- US should be restricted to just near its east/west coasts until they join the war

quote:

ORIGINAL: petedalby
Thanks for the explanation Taifun. I've just started a new game as the Axis and in December '39 I already see 2 UK armies in France with probably more to come. Your rationale on 'Action / Reaction' makes perfect sense.

I have no problem with the tactic if it's also combined with a land attack on the USSR by Japan to trigger the gain in US mobilisation.

To have a DoW without increasing US mobilisation is where it seems wrong to me.

Actually the Siberia bombing strategy is very powerful regardless of France being weakly or strongly defended. And actually the earlier you start Barbarossa probably the more impactful it is as USSR will have less units so the HQ + 5 units are even more essential though you'll need to make sure you prioritize getting long range air with Japan early enough.

And yeah while the tactic itself is very strong, the gamey part is the not invading Siberia by land to avoid the US mobilization penalty which I think is really meant to represent Japan DoW on USSR since as Bill mentioned you can't check that 2 nations are at war with each other just whether they are mobilized.



ThunderLizard11 -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/19/2021 11:33:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68

quote:

Those are balance issues (or maybe not), but there is also an etiquette issue. Call me (very) naive, but I strongly believe players should refrain from abusing engine/scripts, because it simply destroys gaming experience and forces both players to play artificially, even in anticipation of weird things that may occur. You may of course house rule many things out, but soon both sides will come for a game with their lawyers. There are things like:
1. Usual ELO rules - no diplo on majors, no ussr dow in 1940, no Bulgaria diplo
2. Bringing all RN to Pacific and attacking JAP while they load troops on transport
3. Scouting with JAP fleet for other Axis powers
4. Blocking Red Sea with japanese ships
5. Bringing JAP SF to Africa in 1940
6. This new STR Bomber in Syberia 'strategy'
7. Atacking neutrals in Pacific by Allies to prevent JAP from taking them for free
8. 'All of France strategy' by dropping paras near Algiers (or was this fixed? That was serious issue, but not heard of this for some time)

Agree. Most of the naval "scouting" issues can be fixed by putting more naval restriction zones for a few of the nations. For example:
- Italy should have a more restricted naval zone (essentially the Med) until they join the war (so they can't scout for Germany in the Atlantic)
- Japan should be restricted to just the pacific until they are at war with UK/US
- US should be restricted to just near its east/west coasts until they join the war

quote:

ORIGINAL: petedalby
Thanks for the explanation Taifun. I've just started a new game as the Axis and in December '39 I already see 2 UK armies in France with probably more to come. Your rationale on 'Action / Reaction' makes perfect sense.

I have no problem with the tactic if it's also combined with a land attack on the USSR by Japan to trigger the gain in US mobilisation.

To have a DoW without increasing US mobilisation is where it seems wrong to me.

Actually the Siberia bombing strategy is very powerful regardless of France being weakly or strongly defended. And actually the earlier you start Barbarossa probably the more impactful it is as USSR will have less units so the HQ + 5 units are even more essential though you'll need to make sure you prioritize getting long range air with Japan early enough.

And yeah while the tactic itself is very strong, the gamey part is the not invading Siberia by land to avoid the US mobilization penalty which I think is really meant to represent Japan DoW on USSR since as Bill mentioned you can't check that 2 nations are at war with each other just whether they are mobilized.


I may try this next MP game. Never heard of it before it seen it done.



redrum68 -> RE: Japan DoW on USSR? (11/24/2021 2:54:27 PM)

In the end, I think probably the best thing to do until changes are made is to add a house rule to not allow Japan to DoW on USSR until they are at war with the USA.



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