Ground Support is Broken (Full Version)

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Harrybanana -> Ground Support is Broken (11/18/2021 4:08:04 PM)

Air Units flying Ground Support Missions are supposed to add their tactical strength to either the Attacker or the Defender in order to determine the Combat Odds. But this is not happening. This is not just a case of the Ground Support not showing up in the combat reports. It is a fact that Ground Support is not being used at all for the Combat Odds. I can give examples if required. This needs to be fixed.

Thank you.



Flaviusx -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/18/2021 4:14:48 PM)

But if you set planes to ground support and conduct attacks, op points are expended. So where is this op point going? Down a black hole? Not saying you are wrong, but it is very strange.



Nirosi -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/18/2021 5:36:03 PM)

What Harry saw with his tests, is that they do "fire". So they do kill steps and reduce effectiveness etc. But they are also supposed to modify the odds (which are not used for determining damage [confirmed by Alvaro], but are used to determine retreats, overrun and maybe other things to). But Harry's test show that they do not do this part of their role.



Harrybanana -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/18/2021 5:36:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

What Harry saw with his tests, is that they do "fire". So they do kill steps and reduce effectiveness etc. But they are also supposed to modify the odds (which are not used for determining damage [confirmed by Alvaro], but are used to determine retreats, overrun and maybe other things to). But Harry's test show that they do not do this part of their role.



Exactly, thank you Nirosi.



Flaviusx -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/18/2021 7:03:55 PM)

Thanks for clarifying, Nirosi, and yeah that is odd.



Nirosi -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/18/2021 11:36:14 PM)

quote:

and yeah that is odd.


LOL



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/19/2021 2:25:35 AM)

I ran the sim and recorded the data as posted in the other post. They are flying and adding. If you want to argue too little that's another story.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/19/2021 2:25:55 AM)

Which gives me a new idea



sveint -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/19/2021 4:17:58 AM)

Baby steps



Harrybanana -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/19/2021 5:49:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I ran the sim and recorded the data as posted in the other post. They are flying and adding. If you want to argue too little that's another story.


What do you mean by "adding... too little"? In your post in a different thread you said air units add their Tactical Strength. To quote you:

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Let's do some math. Real example from 1942 scenario attacking hex 195,65 with the 3 units next to it.

4-5, 11,10, 9-5
vs
7-5

4+11+9 = 24
24 * 80% due to 2 entrenchment levels something generals can see = 19.2
19.2 * 90% due to forest (if I remember that 17.28

17.28 vs 7 = 2.46 rounded down 2:1 which displays on the hover.

Say both sides has a GS unit with an 8 modified tactical.... This figure is taken from the unit at 201,50 in the 1942 scenario stuka

If ONLY the defender adds his GS it is twice as effective mathematically on the odds.

17.28 vs 7 + 8 = 1.15:1 = 1:1 displayed

If ONLY the attacker adds his GS

25.28 vs 7 = 3.6:1 = 3:1 displayed

If BOTH add their GS value

25.28 vs 15 = 1.6:1 = 1:1 because it rounds down.

Defender GS is always twice as effective as attacker in terms of odds.

They both add equal damage to the attack though.

It only impacts odds and retreats
.


So are you now saying that they don't even add their Tactical Strength but some lower number? Because if you are saying that they are adding their Tactical Strength, then I say you better recheck your data, because this is clearly not the case.

And if you are saying that they are adding something less than their Tactical Strength (which IMHO is already way too low) than I have to say: With the greatest respect my Lordship, are you ****ing kidding me??



Harrybanana -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/19/2021 6:37:56 AM)

I ran another test. This time I setup an Attack which should clear up once and for all whether or not air units are adding anything to the Combat Odds and therefore whether or not they are affecting Retreat Results. I used the 1941 scenario and spent a turn beating up on a weak Soviet Unit to reduce its displayed strength to 1. I then put it behind a river in clear terrain and unentrenched adjacent to a 4 Attack strength German Infantry. Attacking without Ground Support for either side the German unit got the expected 2:1 Odds. Over 20 tests the Soviet Unit was retreated 4 times (20%). The German unit took an average of 0.6 Casualties and the Russian unit took 0.1 casualties. A typical result is shown below.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/BFEC235C3D9D405B84ACBA9AA554C3A1.jpg[/image]



Harrybanana -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/19/2021 6:48:43 AM)

I then did the same Attack another 20 times, but this time I added in the best Tactical Bomber Unit in the World at the time with a tactical strength of 8. If the air unit was adding it's tactical strength to the battle than the odds should be increased from 2:1 to 2 + 8:1 = 10:1. So this should be an automatic Retreat right. Even if the tactical bomber was only adding in 25% of its tactical strength (which would be a bloody joke) the odds would still be 2+2:1 = 4:1. So even in this case one would expect far more retreats than the infantry attacking by itself. But actually the opposite happened as the Russian unit only retreated 15% of the time (3 times out of 20). On the plus side it did sustain an average of 1.6 Casualties. Big deal, I would rather get the retreat.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/030A8BA921B644BBA77EDFF21B6FADF4.jpg[/image]



Harrybanana -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/19/2021 6:50:03 AM)

Typical Result using Ground Support.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/48BC2F985DE2418D80ADFE38333B36B5.jpg[/image]



Harrybanana -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/19/2021 6:54:49 AM)

Alvaro, could you please look at my screenshots above and tell me what the combat odds should be for the German Infantry Division Attacking the Russian Infantry Corps with ground support from the Tactical Strength 8 Bomber unit. You don't have to give anything away by telling me how this is calculated, I would just like to know what the combat odds should be. I think this is a fair question since this should be displayed in the Combat Report anyway.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/19/2021 1:57:17 PM)

The combat log is not showing the added ground support... that is why. It is included in the combat calculations.

I am remedying that so while the hover shows just the basic odds, the combat log will include the attacker and defender ground support.

Next...
When combat is that small between weakened divisions a fair portion of the time units won't do damage but retreat can still happen.



Harrybanana -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/19/2021 3:24:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

The combat log is not showing the added ground support... that is why. It is included in the combat calculations.

I am remedying that so while the hover shows just the basic odds, the combat log will include the attacker and defender ground support.

Next...
When combat is that small between weakened divisions a fair portion of the time units won't do damage but retreat can still happen.


I understand that the Combat Log is not showing the added ground support, so I am ignoring that. What I am not ignoring (but apparently you are) is that whether GS is used or not RETREATS HAPPEN WITH THE EXACT SAME FREQUENCY! If GS is not used a Retreat occurs 20% of the time, if GS is used a retreat occurs 20% of the time. In other words, GS is doing nothing to affect the odds of a unit retreating.

So I will ask you again: Using my example above, where a German 4 Strength Infantry Division with a German 8 tactical strength air unit providing GS, attacks a 1 strength Russian Infantry Corps in clear terrain and not entrenched across a River, what should the Combat Odds be?



ncc1701e -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/19/2021 7:03:44 PM)

I am tired to do the calculation but here is a thread just for you Harrybanana: [;)]
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5103482



Harrybanana -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/19/2021 8:48:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I am tired to do the calculation but here is a thread just for you Harrybanana: [;)]
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5103482



Thank you for this. While my tests would indicate that GS was being reduced by 100%, not just 40%, this is welcome news indeed. I look forward to testing the next version.



ncc1701e -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/19/2021 9:05:50 PM)

Well I have done nothing, Alvaro did it.



Harrybanana -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/19/2021 10:54:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Well I have done nothing, Alvaro did it.



Yes, I meant thank you for sharing the link with me.

Much bigger thank you to Alvaro for fixing this.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/19/2021 11:33:14 PM)

You have infantry attacking infantry at low odds. Yes it will be low % retreat.



Harrybanana -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/20/2021 5:07:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

You have infantry attacking infantry at low odds. Yes it will be low % retreat.


I don't just have an infantry attacking, I also have an 8 strength tactical air unit. So why do you say I have low odds? According to your previous post this air unit will add its tactical strength to my infantry so that my combat odds will be 2 (for the 4 strength infantry attacking across a river) + 8 (the tactical strength of the GS air unit) vs. 1 (the strength of the defending unit). So the combat odds will be 2 + 8 = 10 vs 1; therefore 10:1.

So let me put my questions in the simplest terms possible:
1. Are Air Units supposed to add their Tactical Strength to the Strength of the Ground Units in determining the Combat Odds (as you previously stated they do)?
2. If yes, do you believe this is working properly?
3. If yes, than why do you say my Combat Odds will be low if I am adding an 8 Strength Tactical Air Unit to my Attack?



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/20/2021 2:21:56 PM)

I ran a series of tests yesterday on combat and it looks right. The right numbers are coming into place. Maybe you got unlucky in this battle and the general's tenacity held also.
I don't know at this point. I will test a few more things out.

But all the factors are being inserted correctly.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/20/2021 2:22:23 PM)

Haven't you ever played Axis and Allies... attacked with 12 infantry on 2.... and LOST? I have.



ncc1701e -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/20/2021 4:03:35 PM)

Just like Risk. I was so upset that I bought my first real wargame: Panzer Blitz.



Harrybanana -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/20/2021 4:51:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I ran a series of tests yesterday on combat and it looks right. The right numbers are coming into place. Maybe you got unlucky in this battle and the general's tenacity held also.
I don't know at this point. I will test a few more things out.

But all the factors are being inserted correctly.


Can you please just answer my 3 questions. I understand getting unlucky in battle probably better than anyone on the planet (just ask MM how are current game with me as the Allies is going). But based on what you have told us is the way this works I made 20 consecutive Test Attacks with Ground Support at what is supposed to be 10:1 odds and got only 3 Retreats (15%). Which is actually slightly less than the number I got attacking at 2:1 odds without Ground Support. That is not just unlucky, it is statistically impossible.



Harrybanana -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/20/2021 4:57:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Haven't you ever played Axis and Allies... attacked with 12 infantry on 2.... and LOST? I have.


Yes, I have done this and seen it. But what I haven't ever seen is anybody in Axis and Allies or Risk attack with 12 infantry on 2 and lose and then attack another area 12 to 2 and lose, and then attack another area 12 to 2 and lose, etc 20 consecutive times. Well to be fair, in my case the Attacker did win 3 of the 20 times.



ncc1701e -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/20/2021 5:51:48 PM)

Risk is too heavy linked to luck with dice rolls.



Harrybanana -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/20/2021 5:54:58 PM)

I ran the Test again another 20 Times with the same results. Namely, 3 Retreat Results out of 20 Attacks. 15% Retreats is exactly what you would expect if the infantry division was Attacking by itself at 2:1 Odds. But not what you would expect (or is even statistically possible) if the Air Unit's 8 Tactical Strength is added to the infantry division's strength to give 10:1 Combat Odds.

Again, the Test is a 4 Attack Strength German Infantry division with an 8 Tactical Strength Air Unit Attacking a 1 strength Russian infantry corps across a river.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/4B95268F592F48C29F72BD7417AE06B0.jpg[/image]



Harrybanana -> RE: Ground Support is Broken (11/20/2021 6:03:20 PM)

Below are the Screenshots of the Combat Logs for the 1st ten Attacks. The Combat Odds display as 2:1, but Alvaro says the air units Tactical Strength is added to determine the Combat Odds, but the Combat Log currently doesn't show this. Alvaro is working to fix this so that the Combat Odds will display properly after the next patch. Thank you Alvaro.

I have circled the 3 Retreat Results (2 in the 1st ten and 1 in the second ten) in Red. I started to circle the Hold results in Blue, but figured that was not necessary.

[image]local://upfiles/14737/900ED9F193C34DBF884CDEDB5EE2DA71.jpg[/image]



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