Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (Full Version)

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Treetop64 -> Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/1/2021 6:56:51 PM)

One of the things I've wondered but never bothered to ask is why are C-47, C-46s, etc. ops loss rates so consistently high.

Going into 1944 playing as Allies vs AI, Andy's Scen #100, and noticed that the C-47 total losses in the war so far are second only behind P-40s. While most of the P-40 losses are combat (348/541), nearly all of the C-47 losses are ops (422/441). And now that I have a fair number of C-46s their losses have kept pace with the C-47s.

Been making sure that any active supply runs connect well developed and Air ENG staffed airbases. Air drops to formations and para drops have been rare. Shootdowns are virtually non-existent. Crews are trained from high-50s to 70s and many of those have at least mid-50s exp.

It's gotten to the point where I've stood down or use for training almost all transport squadrons on the map, with only a small handful of units actually flying supply runs (2 in China, 6 in SE Asia), just so I don't run out of replacement aircraft, something that has already happened a few times.

Is this something I just have to accept?

Thanks.



anarchyintheuk -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/1/2021 7:03:17 PM)

You can try setting the squadrons on 20-30% rest.



Treetop64 -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/1/2021 7:15:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

You can try setting the squadrons on 20-30% rest.


I've done that. Sometimes even 50% when the need isn't so great. And all squadrons have surplus crews, filled to max.



RangerJoe -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/1/2021 7:17:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

You can try setting the squadrons on 20-30% rest.


+1

Also, check the weather at both bases.



Yaab -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/1/2021 7:23:30 PM)

Many transport planes are among the least durable two-engine aircraft in the game.

First, check exp of your pilots. Air group average may be 55 exp, but if you check the pilots some of them will be in 45-50 exp range. Weed them out. Make sure all pilots are in 51-60 exp range. Same thing for transport skill.

I only fly transports in Clear and Partly Cloudy weather. If weather is fine I fly 100% aircraft en masse. Overcast/Rain/Thunderstorms I rest them 100% en masse. I used to fly them everyday with 30-50% rest and the ops losses were still too much.

Remember that transport pilot can fly two missions per day (tested), and probably three missions too.

DC-2 die like flies, while Catalinas fly transport missions in worst weather possible and suffer almost no ops losses. Is is their higher durability or landing on water? Who knows.



dr.hal -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/1/2021 7:31:07 PM)

My father flew C-47s for the RAF during the war in Burma and he said they were a delight to fly and easy!!! Who knew!



Treetop64 -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/1/2021 7:42:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Many transport planes are among the least durable two-engine aircraft in the game.

First, check exp of your pilots. Air group average may be 55 exp, but if you check the pilots some of them will be in 45-50 exp range. Weed them out. Make sure all pilots are in 51-60 exp range. Same thing for transport skill.

I only fly transports in Clear and Partly Cloudy weather. If weather is fine I fly 100% aircraft en masse. Overcast/Rain/Thunderstorms I rest them 100% en masse. I used to fly them everyday with 30-50% rest and the ops losses were still too much.

Remember that transport pilot can fly two missions per day (tested), and probably three missions too.


I'm vigilant about pilot training. I manually assign replacement pilots in all active squadrons, transport or otherwise, and always assign replacements with high-50s to 70 in the desired skill(s), and a minimum of 50 points of experience when possible.

Admittedly, I've been negligent about checking weather in hexes. Used to combat air groups auto cancelling missions due to weather during turn resolution, but failing to consider that air transport groups fly missions every day without fail, regardless of weather at the base or destination. They're so dedicated.

Thanks for pointing that out.



BBfanboy -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/1/2021 9:01:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treetop64


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Many transport planes are among the least durable two-engine aircraft in the game.

First, check exp of your pilots. Air group average may be 55 exp, but if you check the pilots some of them will be in 45-50 exp range. Weed them out. Make sure all pilots are in 51-60 exp range. Same thing for transport skill.

I only fly transports in Clear and Partly Cloudy weather. If weather is fine I fly 100% aircraft en masse. Overcast/Rain/Thunderstorms I rest them 100% en masse. I used to fly them everyday with 30-50% rest and the ops losses were still too much.

Remember that transport pilot can fly two missions per day (tested), and probably three missions too.


I'm vigilant about pilot training. I manually assign replacement pilots in all active squadrons, transport or otherwise, and always assign replacements with high-50s to 70 in the desired skill(s), and a minimum of 50 points of experience when possible.

Admittedly, I've been negligent about checking weather in hexes. Used to combat air groups auto cancelling missions due to weather during turn resolution, but failing to consider that air transport groups fly missions every day without fail, regardless of weather at the base or destination. They're so dedicated.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Sounds like you have been checking pilot fatigue but not plane fatigue. Click on the "Planes" hypertext at the bottom of the squadron screen. The game will automatically take heavily fatigued planes off-line for servicing, but long before they get to that point the planes are at great risk of ops losses. I use 15 airplane fatigue as the cut-off for acceptability (exception made for an important paratroop drop). I count the number of aircraft that have 15 or more fatigue and figure out what % of the squadron to set to Rest that turn.



Ian R -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/1/2021 11:48:46 PM)

I fly them on 50% rest, at 10k feet, and always within normal range. Extended range is only for emergencies.

Ops losses are kept minimal.



geofflambert -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/2/2021 2:26:07 AM)

From the Japanese point of view I've noticed that. The Americans just lose transports like crazy. I don't and a lot of the time I throw raw recruits in there. And C-47s (DC-3s) are some of the best airplanes ever built. They're still flying. I rode in one from Wheeling to Pittsburgh as a kid. Nothing goes wrong with those.



geofflambert -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/2/2021 2:33:02 AM)

Could air superiority play a big role in that?



Tanaka -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/2/2021 6:00:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treetop64


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Many transport planes are among the least durable two-engine aircraft in the game.

First, check exp of your pilots. Air group average may be 55 exp, but if you check the pilots some of them will be in 45-50 exp range. Weed them out. Make sure all pilots are in 51-60 exp range. Same thing for transport skill.

I only fly transports in Clear and Partly Cloudy weather. If weather is fine I fly 100% aircraft en masse. Overcast/Rain/Thunderstorms I rest them 100% en masse. I used to fly them everyday with 30-50% rest and the ops losses were still too much.

Remember that transport pilot can fly two missions per day (tested), and probably three missions too.


I'm vigilant about pilot training. I manually assign replacement pilots in all active squadrons, transport or otherwise, and always assign replacements with high-50s to 70 in the desired skill(s), and a minimum of 50 points of experience when possible.

Admittedly, I've been negligent about checking weather in hexes. Used to combat air groups auto cancelling missions due to weather during turn resolution, but failing to consider that air transport groups fly missions every day without fail, regardless of weather at the base or destination. They're so dedicated.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Sounds like you have been checking pilot fatigue but not plane fatigue. Click on the "Planes" hypertext at the bottom of the squadron screen. The game will automatically take heavily fatigued planes off-line for servicing, but long before they get to that point the planes are at great risk of ops losses. I use 15 airplane fatigue as the cut-off for acceptability (exception made for an important paratroop drop). I count the number of aircraft that have 15 or more fatigue and figure out what % of the squadron to set to Rest that turn.


Plane fatigue! Woah never knew to watch for this thanks for the tip!



Tanaka -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/2/2021 6:00:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

From the Japanese point of view I've noticed that. The Americans just lose transports like crazy. I don't and a lot of the time I throw raw recruits in there. And C-47s (DC-3s) are some of the best airplanes ever built. They're still flying. I rode in one from Wheeling to Pittsburgh as a kid. Nothing goes wrong with those.


I noticed this same thing playing as the Japanese though. Transports just piling up ops losses...



RangerJoe -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/2/2021 1:51:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Could air superiority play a big role in that?


In one sense, yes it can. If the opponent has LRCAP over the bases involved, then that can increase the OPs losses.



Treetop64 -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/2/2021 6:01:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Sounds like you have been checking pilot fatigue but not plane fatigue. Click on the "Planes" hypertext at the bottom of the squadron screen. The game will automatically take heavily fatigued planes off-line for servicing, but long before they get to that point the planes are at great risk of ops losses. I use 15 airplane fatigue as the cut-off for acceptability (exception made for an important paratroop drop). I count the number of aircraft that have 15 or more fatigue and figure out what % of the squadron to set to Rest that turn.


Been very vigilant about AC wear-and-tear, too.

The issue is that wear level and risk is very inconsistent between AC types. Carrier AC get very high wear rates regularly, often well over 50 and higher, even when flown by experts in clear conditions. Yet they fly missions and recover fairly reliably. If I ground them at 15, then the CAG would entirely stop flying aircraft after only a couple of days. Then you have B-24s which, at first, I couldn't wait to first get. But not long after I almost hated them because they are so maintenance-intensive. This is one of the few AC types that, by default, I alternate between flying and grounding entire squadrons and groups, the former for catching up on maintenance and repairs that B-24s accumulate very rapidly.

Again I think it's just me not paying any attention to the weather at the origin and destination hexes for transport groups, as pointed out by Yaab. Spoilt by combat air groups cancelling their missions due to weather during turn resolution. Apparently, transport air groups disregard weather and fly mission every day.



Nomad -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/2/2021 6:58:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treetop64


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Sounds like you have been checking pilot fatigue but not plane fatigue. Click on the "Planes" hypertext at the bottom of the squadron screen. The game will automatically take heavily fatigued planes off-line for servicing, but long before they get to that point the planes are at great risk of ops losses. I use 15 airplane fatigue as the cut-off for acceptability (exception made for an important paratroop drop). I count the number of aircraft that have 15 or more fatigue and figure out what % of the squadron to set to Rest that turn.


Been very vigilant about AC wear-and-tear, too.

The issue is that wear level and risk is very inconsistent between AC types. Carrier AC get very high wear rates regularly, often well over 50 and higher, even when flown by experts in clear conditions. Yet they fly missions and recover fairly reliably. If I ground them at 15, then the CAG would entirely stop flying aircraft after only a couple of days. Then you have B-24s which, at first, I couldn't wait to first get. But not long after I almost hated them because they are so maintenance-intensive. This is one of the few AC types that, by default, I alternate between flying and grounding entire squadrons and groups, the former for catching up on maintenance and repairs that B-24s accumulate very rapidly.

Again I think it's just me not paying any attention to the weather at the origin and destination hexes for transport groups, as pointed out by Yaab. Spoilt by combat air groups cancelling their missions due to weather during turn resolution. Apparently, transport air groups disregard weather and fly mission every day.



Further it seems that bombers set to transport supply will also fly every day, no weather seems to affect them.



Q-Ball -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/2/2021 7:14:15 PM)

IRL, flying transports planes was actually one of the more dangerous pilot jobs in the USAAF. That was because IRL they were flown so hard; every day, sometimes several times a day, they just didn't get a break like fighter and bomber pilots did



Kull -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/2/2021 8:12:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treetop64

One of the things I've wondered but never bothered to ask is why are C-47, C-46s, etc. ops loss rates so consistently high.

Going into 1944 playing as Allies vs AI, Andy's Scen #100, and noticed that the C-47 total losses in the war so far are second only behind P-40s. While most of the P-40 losses are combat (348/541), nearly all of the C-47 losses are ops (422/441). And now that I have a fair number of C-46s their losses have kept pace with the C-47s.

Been making sure that any active supply runs connect well developed and Air ENG staffed airbases. Air drops to formations and para drops have been rare. Shootdowns are virtually non-existent. Crews are trained from high-50s to 70s and many of those have at least mid-50s exp.

It's gotten to the point where I've stood down or use for training almost all transport squadrons on the map, with only a small handful of units actually flying supply runs (2 in China, 6 in SE Asia), just so I don't run out of replacement aircraft, something that has already happened a few times.

Is this something I just have to accept?

Thanks.


Interesting point. Hadn't noticed this before, but I checked my game (mid-43) and it's almost exactly the same situation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Treetop64

Apparently, transport air groups disregard weather and fly mission every day.



And THAT is probably the main reason. Going one step further, unlike combat missions, leaders don't have an effect on how many aircraft take part in a mission. Every airframe not dedicated to training or rest will fly every day. In my case, there's no rest and no training, so it's 100% every day, and they are never stood down. And why? Because despite that high op rate airframe fatigue never exceeds numbers in the low 30's, and the majority are less than 15.

To me, the answer to your question is to have about half the units running supply "over the hump" while a few are sprinkled here and there in other theatres (and rarely needed), while the rest are focused on training replacement pilots. I'm extremely OCD about aircraft and pilots, yet pay almost no attention to these since that mix gives me all the pilots needed and keeps the attrition level at slightly below replacement. I'm not sold on weather having an effect on ops losses here, and even if it did, that level of micromanagement is too much even for me (and that is saying a lot!)



RangerJoe -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/2/2021 8:52:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treetop64


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Sounds like you have been checking pilot fatigue but not plane fatigue. Click on the "Planes" hypertext at the bottom of the squadron screen. The game will automatically take heavily fatigued planes off-line for servicing, but long before they get to that point the planes are at great risk of ops losses. I use 15 airplane fatigue as the cut-off for acceptability (exception made for an important paratroop drop). I count the number of aircraft that have 15 or more fatigue and figure out what % of the squadron to set to Rest that turn.


Been very vigilant about AC wear-and-tear, too.

The issue is that wear level and risk is very inconsistent between AC types. Carrier AC get very high wear rates regularly, often well over 50 and higher, even when flown by experts in clear conditions. Yet they fly missions and recover fairly reliably. If I ground them at 15, then the CAG would entirely stop flying aircraft after only a couple of days. Then you have B-24s which, at first, I couldn't wait to first get. But not long after I almost hated them because they are so maintenance-intensive. This is one of the few AC types that, by default, I alternate between flying and grounding entire squadrons and groups, the former for catching up on maintenance and repairs that B-24s accumulate very rapidly.

Again I think it's just me not paying any attention to the weather at the origin and destination hexes for transport groups, as pointed out by Yaab. I thought that I pointed it out first. He merely states the conditions when he flies. Spoilt by combat air groups cancelling their missions due to weather during turn resolution. Apparently, transport air groups disregard weather and fly mission every day.


Maybe I will just start deleting my posts.



geofflambert -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/3/2021 9:55:03 PM)

Is what is being described in reference to weather apply equally when the transport mission is to a friendly airbase as compared to air-drop? I think I've noticed that transport missions of greater distance will occur when to a friendly airbase.



Lowpe -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/5/2021 3:06:16 PM)

Additionally, you need to watch malaria...and fly them from large well staffed air bases in the monsoon areas. I believe size 5+ is what you need there.



BBfanboy -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/5/2021 5:05:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Additionally, you need to watch malaria...and fly them from large well staffed air bases in the monsoon areas. I believe size 5+ is what you need there.

Malarial effects are not totally suppressed until level 9 development (AF + port). But you are right that around level 5 the effects are much less severe than at level 1 or 2. And some locations in the malarial zones are worse than others. Places in open terrain are often less badly affected than places in Jungle or Swamp terrain.



Nomad -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/5/2021 7:13:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Is what is being described in reference to weather apply equally when the transport mission is to a friendly airbase as compared to air-drop? I think I've noticed that transport missions of greater distance will occur when to a friendly airbase.


You can air transport supply, from a 1+ base to a 1+ base, up to 50% of max range.
you can air drop supply, for a 1+ base to any hex, up to normal range.

See michaelms post in this thread https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2483507



CaptBeefheart -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/6/2021 1:29:17 AM)

They say when the last 747 is flown to the boneyard the flight crew will be brought back in a DC-3. Years ago I worked at Douglas in Long Beach and my boss mentioned that when Donald Douglas designed the DC-3, he used a safety factor of 30% for the structure. That and the lack of pressure cycles means metal fatigue pretty much doesn't exist for that bird. You'll probably see them flying from unimproved strips in Africa and South America for another 50 years.

Back to the game: I try not to micromanage air supply ops, but 30% rest seems to keep ops losses fairly reasonable.

Cheers,
CB



Yaab -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/8/2021 7:36:25 AM)

OK, I give up.

My DC-2s fly in Clear/Partly Cloudy weather and BAM! An ops loss. Plane fatigue under 10, and still a DC-2 is a total write-off in just one turn.

I am clutching at the straws here, but my last theory is that transport aircraft follow the level bomber airfield equation as per manual p.213, and this feature failed to be documented for transport aircraft.

Thus, a DC-2 with load of 2400 points, should use airfield 4, possibly on both ends.

Level bombers require an airfield equal to size 4 + (bomb load / 6500) rounded down.

DC-2 (load 2400)
4 +(2400/6500) =4 + 0,36= 4,36 =rounded down =4

Right now, I fly from Ledo(airfield 3) to Myitkina (airfield 2), and the loss rate is not sustainble (2 aircraft lost in just 5 mission days)




BBfanboy -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/8/2021 1:54:33 PM)

Yaab, where did you get the Size 4 AF as a start point for calculating the Level Bomber AF size? A single engined bomber like the Wirraway, Mary, Sonia and Ida is a level bomber and most certainly do not need a level 4 AF. Level 2 is the minimum for an offensive mission, so that seems like a good start point for the calculation.

Also, you get info on the weather at target in the combat report, but you never know the weather at your originating base. Taking off on wet and windy runways is always dicey!



Lowpe -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/8/2021 2:34:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

OK, I give up.

My DC-2s fly in Clear/Partly Cloudy weather and BAM! An ops loss. Plane fatigue under 10, and still a DC-2 is a total write-off in just one turn.

I am clutching at the straws here, but my last theory is that transport aircraft follow the level bomber airfield equation as per manual p.213, and this feature failed to be documented for transport aircraft.

Thus, a DC-2 with load of 2400 points, should use airfield 4, possibly on both ends.

Level bombers require an airfield equal to size 4 + (bomb load / 6500) rounded down.

DC-2 (load 2400)
4 +(2400/6500) =4 + 0,36= 4,36 =rounded down =4

Right now, I fly from Ledo(airfield 3) to Myitkina (airfield 2), and the loss rate is not sustainble (2 aircraft lost in just 5 mission days)




Is it monsoon season?

From the patch notes:

71. Tweak Added monsoon effect to aircraft support affecting AF (0-4) service level


"In the latest beta (1108q9), I have also added monsoons to Aviation Support and Pilot fatigue recovery after watching several old newsreels on the Burma Campaign.

During the monsoon period and at bases where monsoons have affect, if the AF is less than level 5, the pilots of groups stationed there gain some fatigue and the Service Level of the AF for maintaining a/c is lowered affecting repair/maint.

I have only included less developed AFs as more developed AF should have better repair/maintence facilities and better accomodation for the pilots to counter such affects."


_____________________________

Michael



A quick example...probably more there



RangerJoe -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/8/2021 2:34:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Yaab, where did you get the Size 4 AF as a start point for calculating the Level Bomber AF size? A single engined bomber like the Wirraway, Mary, Sonia and Ida is a level bomber and most certainly do not need a level 4 AF. Level 2 is the minimum for an offensive mission, so that seems like a good start point for the calculation.

Also, you get info on the weather at target in the combat report, but you never know the weather at your originating base. Taking off on wet and windy runways is always dicey!


No it is not. It is fun to hydroplane from a large puddle at speeds of 50 mph+ or 80 kph+ and then hit a relatively dry spot . . . [;)]



Lowpe -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/8/2021 2:49:57 PM)

I have no clue if it is meaningful or just a default number but tracker has the required size for all transports at AF size 2.



[image]local://upfiles/44178/B05A903923F94E7CB5F3F149F7E8426D.jpg[/image]



Treetop64 -> RE: Transport Aircraft - High Ops Loss Rates (12/8/2021 3:18:39 PM)

I suspect it's a bug, miscalculated coefficient, etc. of some kind. Ops losses are inevitable but frankly the C-47 losses are ridiculous.

Literally all other transport groups on the entire map go unused or are stuck with training, including 272 Fifth AF C-47s in the SW Pacific, because the aircraft replacement rate barely keeps up with absurdly high ops losses of four squadrons in SE Asia and two in China. That, even with a 30% rest setting at Lvl 7 bases (and building) for those units. The smallest supply destination airbase is a Lvl 4. And they're not even flying over the Hump.



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