Too many guards units! (Full Version)

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jubjub -> Too many guards units! (12/1/2021 10:40:11 PM)

There's way too many Guards units from 1942, and likely in 43-45 as well. They're also way too easy to get.

Only 129 Guards rifle divisions were ever created in the war, but the game allows you to create up to 178 at the start of the StB campaign - assuming you built to the limit. Additionally, at the start of this campaign, there are 64 guards rifle divisions. At a similar date, Gam3r has well over 100 of them despite losing around 8 Guards Rifle Corps throughout 1942.

I think the crux of the issue is that Guards status is too easy to obtain. 6 victories might make sense for the first few guards divisions in 1941, but later, it's an extremely low bar to cross. Not only that, but you only need to get two guards divisions to promote a third one for free! I take it as a given that whoever is playing the Soviets in my games will have maxed out their guards limit fairly early. In my game as the Soviets, I maxed out the first '42 guards limit Jan 1st, and the second guards limit on July 1st, the date the limits increased.

I really think the amount of victories needed to get Guards status should be set higher, go higher over time, and increase significantly the closer you get to the limit. I think this would be a good anti-snowball game mechanic and make a historical 1942 more achievable.



AlbertN -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/1/2021 10:54:27 PM)

+1



thedoctorking -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/1/2021 11:10:03 PM)

One thing about this is that the German AI is way too ready to fight losing battles. The AI has improved on this since early days, but still in a solo game I'm playing as the Soviets, the German AI makes on average three or four unsuccessful attacks against any well-defended hex before bringing enough to actually dislodge the target. I think if you were playing PvP, the German would be more conservative with his attacks and you wouldn't get so many "free" victories as the defender. Still, I played a game of St2B out as the Soviets against German AI, and I ended up with about the historical number of Guards corps.

If I understand correctly, the third unit in a Guards corps is not redesignated Guards themselves.



jubjub -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/1/2021 11:13:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

One thing about this is that the German AI is way too ready to fight losing battles. The AI has improved on this since early days, but still in a solo game I'm playing as the Soviets, the German AI makes on average three or four unsuccessful attacks against any well-defended hex before bringing enough to actually dislodge the target. I think if you were playing PvP, the German would be more conservative with his attacks and you wouldn't get so many "free" victories as the defender. Still, I played a game of St2B out as the Soviets against German AI, and I ended up with about the historical number of Guards corps.

If I understand correctly, the third unit in a Guards corps is not redesignated Guards themselves.


The third unit isn't, but the whole corps gets the benefits of the increased morale if it doesn't break down into the constituent divisions.

Both games I cited were pvp.



hei1 -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/2/2021 10:26:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

There's way too many Guards units from 1942, and likely in 43-45 as well. They're also way too easy to get.

...



+1



Gunner Garidel -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/2/2021 3:32:40 PM)

I am, at least for this game, a newbie, so feel free to roll your eyes when you read this. [;)]

I also own the Charles Sharps books, so you're spot-on about the number of Guards rifle divisions; however, are you taking into account the number of Guards Airborne Divisions and Brigades in the 178 number you refer to above? I guess what I'm really asking is does the game distinguish between rifle divisions and airborne divisions or just lump them all together, which might account for the additional guards units you can build?



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/2/2021 5:14:12 PM)

Good luck with this one. Brought this up in WITE1, will see what happens in WITE2 but I am not holding my breath.



xhoel -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/2/2021 8:17:12 PM)

+1



GibsonPete -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/4/2021 6:59:35 PM)

There will be too many Soviet units designated as Guards. A Soviet player will make that happen. If the Axis had a similar method to creates Axis elite units, would he say no that is not historical or too gamey. I doubt it. This was a topic discussed in WITE and I am sure it was examined prerelease, and someone decided the Soviets needed it. Will it be tweaked. I doubt it.



jubjub -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/4/2021 9:37:25 PM)

quote:

If the Axis had a similar method to creates Axis elite units, would he say no that is not historical or too gamey.


Really? I play both sides and advocate for improvements to gameplay and historical accuracy. To me, this change would improve both.



xhoel -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/5/2021 11:35:07 AM)

@GibsonPete: The problem isnt that a good Soviet player wont make Guard units, its that any player regardless of their skill can get guard units way to easy. This was discussed when we talked about Guard Tank units being farmed way too fast and was changed.

As to the Axis example: If the Axis were getting a lot of elite units in ways that do not reflect reality, I would complain about it just like I did when discussing combat changes that saw way too high losses for the Soviets or when the overpowered super depot issue came up.



Beethoven1 -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/5/2021 1:48:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

@GibsonPete: The problem isnt that a good Soviet player wont make Guard units, its that any player regardless of their skill can get guard units way to easy.


Keep in mind that this is based on games before artillery was buffed. I am guessing it is significantly harder now for Soviets to get sufficient wins to make large numbers of guards units than was the case before. Not that it won't happen sooner or later, but other things equal it is likely to take longer.



GibsonPete -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/5/2021 4:10:53 PM)

Beethoven1 as always, a voice of wisdom. You see connections others do not. +1

xhoel you are right if the Axis had such a capability and abused it, I would hope honest players would speak up and the developers fix it as you are rightly doing with the Soviet issue concerning Guard units.

Jubjub you are a better player than I will ever be, I believe the concept of the Axis creating 'elite' units in a fashion similar to a Guard unit is simply too triggering to consider. If you disagree enlighten me.

To all I appreciate the feedback.




Rexzapper -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/5/2021 10:59:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub
There's way too many Guards units from 1942, and likely in 43-45 as well. They're also way too easy to get.

... I think the crux of the issue is that Guards status is too easy to obtain. 6 victories might make sense for the first few guards divisions in 1941, but later, it's an extremely low bar to cross. Not only that, but you only need to get two guards divisions to promote a third one for free! ...


For me it is exactly the same case as the Guard Tank Corps. As they are infantry units the matter is something less decisive than in the case of armored units, it is true ... but it is still unbalancing to provide elite units to one side in unrealistic numbers.

I believe that the requirements to get the "Guard" status should increase gradually from year to year to have a number of guard units as close as possible to the historical ones.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete
... I believe the concept of the Axis creating 'elite' units in a fashion similar to a Guard unit is simply too triggering to consider...


I would not like it, it seems to me that it would be to take the same unrealistic path that I criticize in the case of the Soviets.



AlbertN -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/5/2021 11:46:46 PM)

Besides my opinion on Soviet Guards - which I think are too many - I'd favor the Axis being able to create units like the Soviets can. IF somehow they have production for, by all means.
The game in '42 almost encourage a sitzkrieg so I do not exclude overflows of materials that sit in pools not to be used which is silly and stupid. (Given I'd rather have a more fluidified game)

But to invest Admin Points to create 'Elite Regiment of Motorized Infantry' or 'Flak Battallion' or 'Stug Battallion' or even to erase a disband order is something I'd add for Germany / Axis.



DeletedUser44 -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/6/2021 12:48:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

There will be too many Soviet units designated as Guards. A Soviet player will make that happen. If the Axis had a similar method to creates Axis elite units, would he say no that is not historical or too gamey. I doubt it. This was a topic discussed in WITE and I am sure it was examined prerelease, and someone decided the Soviets needed it. Will it be tweaked. I doubt it.


Pete, you are so funny and cynical. I love you man.

Who knows what these guys were doing pre-release? But I could almost guarantee it was not examining Soviet Guards numbers. (this rates low priority even now...)

Of course the Germans would exploit it, if they could. Never-the-less, WiTE2 should not allow it.

A hard-cap on the upper limit on number of Guards allowed would fix that.

I probably would not hold them to a historical limit, but allow them 115%.



Rexzapper -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/6/2021 1:16:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II
A hard-cap on the upper limit on number of Guards allowed would fix that.

I probably would not hold them to a historical limit, but allow them 115%.


Yes, obviously this would also solve the problem of the excess of Guard units.



ShaggyHiK -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/6/2021 1:26:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Besides my opinion on Soviet Guards - which I think are too many - I'd favor the Axis being able to create units like the Soviets can. IF somehow they have production for, by all means.
The game in '42 almost encourage a sitzkrieg so I do not exclude overflows of materials that sit in pools not to be used which is silly and stupid. (Given I'd rather have a more fluidified game)

But to invest Admin Points to create 'Elite Regiment of Motorized Infantry' or 'Flak Battallion' or 'Stug Battallion' or even to erase a disband order is something I'd add for Germany / Axis.

German logistics in the East had a big problem. She was unable to supply what they already had.
Simplified example: Why do you need 10 guns in the east, if you can only deliver 10 pieces of ammunition to them per day? You can easily send 20 cannons, only the supply of ammunition will remain at the level of 10 shells per day. Obviously, it will not work to multiply shells in artisanal conditions. 1 Projectile in 2 cannons cannot be loaded.
And there was a similar supply problem with food and fuel. Why do you need 1 more fighter if those that you already have are receiving less food supplies? Why do you need another Pz.V if those that you have on the front line have been running out of fuel for a week?
The Germans really had a problem, many planes, tanks, guns were gathering dust unnecessarily at the places of conservation. In addition to not being able to supply them, it was not possible to deliver them where they were needed. The German railway system was disgusting. Although the technical capacity of the railway was at a high level, the organization of the work of the railway trains, the continuation of the work of civil transport and other miscalculations led to fatal supply problems. What can we say in Germany there was a shortage of coal, the coal crisis was wide and they fought against it in every possible way, but Germany had huge reserves of coal at storage sites, which lay there until the end of the war due to the inability to deliver it where it was needed.



GibsonPete -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/6/2021 3:30:04 PM)

SauronII:
"A hard-cap on the upper limit on number of Guards allowed would fix that.
I probably would not hold them to a historical limit but allow them 115%."

I could see something like this working. As for giving gamers an exploit and then telling them to use it wisely... I promise that I will not abuse a single exploit you provide to excess, including temp motorization, night bombing or loading the theatre boxes to farm VPs. I promise on the hair of my chinny chin chin to not do this. [8|]



jubjub -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/6/2021 5:06:28 PM)

There’s already an effective cap based on how many units you have and the guards % for each year.

I think it’s fine if the Soviets are over the historical amount because I think it’s good for the game to reward aggression. The problem is that it’s too easy to go way overboard and max out the limits. My idea of making guards status increasingly difficult the more you get would keep the best of the current mechanic while curtailing the excesses.

As for the axis guard unit idea, there’s just no historical basis for that.



Joel Billings -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/6/2021 5:26:39 PM)

Can I ask how you figure that the Soviets can get 178 guard RDs at the start of StoB? Clearly guards creation is impacted by game changes which have over time have made things harder for the Soviets. I'm not against tweaking the limits, but would be good to hear the numbers behind your statements. Thanks.



GibsonPete -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/6/2021 7:22:58 PM)

Jubjub please do not take the remark about creating Axis elite units as anything but a jest. Although in WITE you had the 78th Sturm Division who became elite based on its battle history. My personal view is if the Soviets can create that many Guard units that's fine with me.



jubjub -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/6/2021 9:32:56 PM)

It looks like I calculated the original number based on the maximum limits. The at start TOE allows for 129 Guards Rifle Divisions. The maximum if you build rifle divisions to the limit though is (41*3 + 469 + 148/3 + 58/3)*.25 = 165. I must have miscalculated the first time.

Really, this number is irrelevant, and the numbers to compare are the StB starting TOE and a typical '41 campaign around the same time (with a human soviet player). If you compare these, the only conclusion is that Guards status is too easy to achieve and/or too numerous. A typical '41 game will have guards rifle divisions maxed out by this time around 120-130, whereas the historical TOE only has 65 guards rifle divisions. This means that there are almost twice as many guards divisions on the map as was historical!

Maybe this is not as doable any more with the new changes/buffs to the Axis, but this has been my experience so far.



Joel Billings -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/6/2021 10:27:11 PM)

This has likely changed since release as the changes have generally made things easier for the Germans. Depending on where you stand on the 1.01.15 combat changes, they may be much harder now for the Soviets which is bound to have an impact on their guards creation. At this point I don't think anyone can say for sure how much has really changed, and how much it will impact guards creation. Adjusting the chance of units become guards is probably not that difficult, but getting the feedback to know what the right level would be now is the hard part.



Gam3r -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/7/2021 7:17:42 AM)

Actually that was not so easy to get all those guards.

Get none in september due to lack of wins, and that was before the patches.

First came in late Dec or Jan IIRC.

Actually my first guard unit was division in Far East. (that i cannot move due to game setting). My RD having 9 wins didnt get guard status. same for tank and mech. Cav is converted pretty fast.

in 42 get guards like every turn. either RD or Tank Bde.

Now we have rulechange that postpone the Guard Tanks TOE. And with much more stronger Axis forces maybe there no reason to change rules for obtainnig guard status.



AlbertN -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/7/2021 11:48:20 AM)

I am not seeing 'much stronger' Axis forces. Actually they got 'nerfed' by the National Morale change hammering them in july '42 already.

I am not sure of the Guard numbers - but another thing to evaluate is that Guard Corps must be composed of all Guard Units too and not 2/3. Sure the Guard Units are mighty strong already in '42.



GibsonPete -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/7/2021 2:02:41 PM)

AlbertN is right the apple barrel does improve by mixing bad with good.



Gam3r -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/7/2021 8:08:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I am not seeing 'much stronger' Axis forces. Actually they got 'nerfed' by the National Morale change hammering them in july '42 already.


But first Guards come in Sep 41 not in Jul 42. And you must survive to that date. And now i can't stop novice Axis at the Smolensk as i usually do before the patch. So the Axis stronger enough to prevent me from getting victories and guard units when they needed the most.



AlbertN -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/7/2021 8:32:33 PM)

Are you professing that the Soviets under the Arty-Patch cannot get Guard Units? Because sure my PvP Opponent has loads of Guard Units all across the map - and started to get some in Nov or Dec '41, which I think it's the first occasion where Guards can get promoted.



Gam3r -> RE: Too many guards units! (12/7/2021 8:52:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Are you professing that the Soviets under the Arty-Patch cannot get Guard Units?


I say that it might be later than before.

100th RD awarded Guards status on 18 sep 1941. So if you get them in november that is already win for Axis



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