RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (Full Version)

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AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (12/30/2021 1:16:44 PM)

T77 - Leningrad Sector

Here I feel I've an amount of divisions sitting idling and waiting for Leningrad to be attackable when it will take eons before that can happen.

The Flak shot down 25 Li2 planes this turn and I decided to try to build airbases adjacent to Leningrad proper as well to see if at -1- hex distance fighters may intercept.

I know in a previous turn they intercepted loads but I do not remember if there were special circumstances for, that got them to fly!

I also believe that MSAG is lightening up the Eastern Front. The Guard Corps disappeared, and many Infantry Corps that were there are being split in divisions. I expect a sensible weakening of the region for what concerns the Soviet forces and I am caressing the idea of relocating elsewhere the motorized and armoured divisions as their role there by now it is non that significant anymore.

[image]local://upfiles/36315/ACF4DAFE97C94F849FB7518AAA7A49A9.jpg[/image]



EwaldvonKleist -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (12/30/2021 1:28:23 PM)


quote:

For what concerns the logistic issues, I've already opened up a thread and pretty much I got an answer that the system is complicated and convulted - I do not believe WITE2 will have a reviewed or built-from-stratch logistic system; but if there are sequels or maybe a paid expansion to it, then yes it is possible. My own gut vibe there though.


I find that somewhat frustrating, it seems to me that not even the manual writers/producers have an in-detail understanding how the supply routines work.

You operate with many depots in several layers behind your frontline. Maybe setting all but those closest to the front to low priorities could help. Since the system is so complicated it may be confused by a high number of depots.

Btw. very good AAR!



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (12/30/2021 1:57:03 PM)

T77 - Numbers in general

Both numbers gone up - though I admit as Germans I fail to supply my units due to how obscure the logistic system is, that to say it lightly.

The more I try to understand it, the more I bang my head in the wall.

Will elaborate further in another post.
Here the numbers.

The air war is litterally non existant.

I do Air Supply, and pretty much that's it. And some air recon.

My opponent keeps his patrolling in the Caspian Sea routinely and does some air recon. And air supply on Leningrad.

It appears both of us consider the operational losses and the flak way too efficient for the produced result, and mostly the amount of supplies the bombers eat.



[image]local://upfiles/36315/8D43EC1377A6421DAF289DD880AE115B.jpg[/image]



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (12/30/2021 2:15:58 PM)

T77 - Logistics Exploration

This is the result of the weekly blood test of the Axis player!

In general all results are wrong once they've gone past the few first turns! The second number being out of the parameter dictated by the first.

Here though one can just see the final outcome, the tip of the iceberg.

Also to be considered all the Freight in replacement is Freight that does not get into Supplies.

For instance the 18th Army that is designated to siege Leningrad was announced to be set in Refit status and gained lots of replacements; but due to their positioning - the best in the logistic line, they also are not that far away from the needed freight or at least they got way more.

Somehow the 1st Panzer Army, down in the Caucasus is getting ... 1/10 of their need but a huge chunk of replacements.
This may be my own muck up to keep units in Refit status down there (I know I always keep the SS units in Refit though at least).

With utmost chances what I can do and ought to have control over, is to lower the 'Refit' needs of the 1st Panzer Army.

That is roughly the 'use' of this first bit - to keep a glance on it each turn is a good habit, without the need to go too deeply into it. That as suggestion for any player, new or old. (Well old ones know better than I so...)



[image]local://upfiles/36315/15820DB42600422BAFCEC0BD1E7640E4.jpg[/image]



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (12/30/2021 2:36:58 PM)

T77 - Logistics Exploration II

That's the next relevant bit past the recap of the 'blood exam' part.

The first portion is the 'heart check'. Our NSS, the pulsing muscle that spreads our Freight - depending on the might of the Railyards above level 1...

In the mixed screenshot I've put Berlin there. There are Luftwaffe assets right there that I assume should not weight much on the freight if kept there (I've learnt as the Soviets migrate to the Caucasus airplanes it may not be wise to send the LW to the Reserves too in turn? Not sure). And a freshly arrived division as reinforcement.

They all draw freight from Berlin via horse or truck. For what may interest, that division got its freight, had a penalty of 16 due to the distance from its parent HQ, but still failed 0 admin checks in accord to its supply data.
There are things I do not understand entirely there already - a unit receives supplies, which are defined in % of ... what? But mostly are these 'tons'? Because the consumpion of supply is defined in tons instead and not a %.
The two weights and standards used rarely work well - or at least certainly they do not with the 'day routines' of air phase and non day routies of air operations.

Already to understand the division is a headache. BUT beware, beware - the map show is even more treacherous.
You see it linked to Berlin, the Division. It has a clear red line. BUT the deeper detail of the unit says it took its freight from the Western Europe Depot...

That suggests that the Supply phase is before the Transfer phase. For all that may be important, I think it is just a curiosity. (And probably easily understandable if one bothers to read through all the 'phases' of the Logistic calculations when you pass the turn).

Now returning to the main core of the business. Number crunching.

The combined sum of Freight 'used' by the 4 NSS is 145.000 roughly.
Do we know which are the meanings of the 'columns' there.
Why a NSS receives Freight? I assume that is a rotation of personnel or the like from closeby airbases. But I do only have LW assets around Frankfurt and Berlin... Anyhow the amount seems non very significant.

Used? That sounds like the wrong term. It factually means Freight that was sent out from the NSS or in general the Depot elsewhere.

To Units ... Freight delivered to units? At this stage I've to understand what is being supplied by Vienna.
Vienna, as probably other German cities, are loaded with Flak stuff. I can only assume then that is where the supplies have gone as there is nothing else around Vienna. The Slovak HQ has its own depot in Bratislava that serves them directly.
I'd be wrapping this up right now if I was not to sight a ... 186 truck use from Vienna? That's the allocation an Infantry Division tend to have... which means to me, there should be else that is supplied, that is not in the hex of Vienna... (Doing more posts need more images...)

[image]local://upfiles/36315/B02BC09DD3C64E8D926A798C631CCD34.jpg[/image]



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (12/30/2021 2:51:21 PM)

T77 - Logistic Exploration III

Here's the 'Truck Use'.

Just application of deductions, realized Vienna has an amount of Flak in there, factually we have another huge chunk of Flak systems spread all around Germany.

And in fact it comes into play the fact that the Flak in there uses trucks, and destroys trucks too! Now this is Winter, but Germany has excellent roads. Each of these AA units has destroyed 3-4 trucks this turn alone.
If I multiply this number (let's say 3 considering in fair weather it could be less) per 75 (roughly the turns of the game) I get 225 trucks per AA location that is not in a NSS.

Solution? Put a depot anywhere there is AA.
BUT that may come with a not too pleasant tradeoff.

-- In the screen also the Supply situation of the division that arrived as reinforcement.

[image]local://upfiles/36315/87215FECA66042768C318D2A07E6C288.jpg[/image]



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (12/30/2021 3:00:24 PM)

Logistics IV

Hungarian units are well visible, and not as subtle as AA-SU that Goering commandeer around in Cities!

On the other hand there should be awareness each of these Depot will lure some freight and I do not know in which measure and from where. The 'push and shove' amount I've yet to understand as it seems excess of math beyond the basic operations of adding and subtracting and I really do not want to get in there for a game.

In the image below you can see Hungary with 2 different filters.

Many depots that are now at 0 priority had units there that were locked and now are released and got into Russia.
The idea was to minimize truck loss over time. Because we just saw each turn a depot spreads around Freight, trucks can be lost.

On the other hand, remember it is highly inefficient to rely on horse pulled freight (half efficiency in fact).

Ideally you'd want a depot in each hex that contains one unit for min/max at the cost of Admin Points.

BUT then each depot that is kept at 1 keeps pulling Freight on a regular basis.
The player has absolutely no tool to tell a depot to 'just take what you need for your units there'.

Pecs is a prime example of a depot that overpulls well beyond its need. It is gradually storing up Freight there, and what it is sent forward to the front has a very odd pathing, a form of triangulation... (Pecs is the 1 priority depot that is southmost).

So the risk is potentially the same, in Germany, to have depots that will demand well more Freight than what the local AA regiment or battallion truly need for its sky-security activities.

Going back to the numbers of the Logistic Log next - so you'll have to hook back the previous image of the logistic log.







[image]local://upfiles/36315/FDD05A37F5294D948DB91C6B0E49BACC.jpg[/image]



Stamb -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (12/30/2021 3:03:02 PM)

In my GC vs AI i was using depot #1 to the west of Berlin to give supply to a flak, otherwise it is pretty hard or even impossible to refit them.
And when depots will get to a full capacity there - they will not drain any freight any more, i guess...



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (12/30/2021 3:17:02 PM)

Logistics V

Now we've a list related to the 'Export Ports'.
They're the ones receiving Freight first.

I'll start with the first line. Stettin.
Stettin has Priorit 2 as Export Port. Thus if that is the final outcome - it has no precise start of listing I suspect as I've both Priorit 1 and Priority 4 depots.
It certainly won't help me understand proper.

The log tells me Stettin has 33k amount of Freight BEFORE to receive anything.
Stettin gains 9k Freight (from Berlin).
Stettin 'uses' (Ships out) 9k Freight (followed the white line, it goes to Orianenbaum, Import Port Priority 4).
Stettin delivers to units 31 Freight. - There is an AA regiment there that received precisely 31 Freight. Excellent.
Stettin depot uses 0 Trucks total.

That seems clear to me. Now I ought to repeat the ordeal all around.

Since Stamb posted a comment, I'll add an image to reply to him! A few depots that are full, or almost.


[image]local://upfiles/36315/58EC70C05EE84E898AF5FF253E753447.jpg[/image]



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (12/30/2021 3:56:41 PM)

Logistics - Kind of surrendering (for now at least).

I tried to follow up the various passages the game performs following the log, but gradually the 'interest' component got smoked by 'frustration' and other bad vibes.

With Freight that plays ping pong around the map in ways that are non logical and beyond control.

I am also clueless of how to refill the trucks of the units, to leave them in Refit mode into Freight-plenty depots do not work. It refills the troops but I am clueless of where new trucks in general go.

That ruling out the option of 'Bring unit back to the Axis Reserve / West Front' to refit it with trucks.

Anyhow there is only so much my time allows to invest in turns and in general I prefer to churn a day a turn, and keep WITE2 as a game experience and not a labor experience.

I'll tinker some with depot priorities to see if there are improvements but I had enough number churning and white-lines following for the day!

But as good notion I found 2 fighter squadrons parked somewhere as I followed the white lines.
That is the nasty fruit of another poor design and that is of the AoG that come and go.

Whisked away their original AOG, the Air Units splashed into the the 'larger formation' and thus pratically eluding the radar, at least in the way I do operate.
That is another thing that truly should be reworked. It's cool to have JG-X or KG-Y seen on the map, but then anyhow they may not even match the content of the box (as I can put I JG.A, Stab.JG.B and, and III JG.C into the AOG JG-X). A player should just be able to create AOGs as necessary and rename them (for their own mental order) as quality of life improvement.

If I've AoG Leningrad or AoG Caucasus I will know what they're way better than to try to remember other things.
At game - effect level it changes nothing.
From my perspective it will only look better if my supposed JG51 AoG is ... well it has many things that are not the real JG51.

Mostly, as they won't follow the come and go of historical nature - there won't be the risk to forget to null a transfer of the AoG (as per the label not the air unit / group itself) and suddenly have air units not assigned anymore to this or that air directive ...

Anyhow here little harm done because frankly the use of airforce is non existant.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (12/30/2021 10:38:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

In my GC vs AI i was using depot #1 to the west of Berlin to give supply to a flak, otherwise it is pretty hard or even impossible to refit them.
And when depots will get to a full capacity there - they will not drain any freight any more, i guess...


May or may not drain it but it will for DAMN sure move it around. And every time it is moved around you will have a lose of freight. I saw this in my games and quickly realized what I needed to do.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (12/30/2021 10:46:58 PM)

I would recommend "Danzig" over Stettin any day of the week for your export port. Plus I would set one export port only and one import port only for sea transport of freight in the specific zone. Of course we chatted about that on Discord already :) But yeah Danzig >> Stetting in my book.



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/1/2022 12:52:17 PM)

T78 - Soviets Advance

German troops defend their ground and inflict severe casualties, but get forced to retreat.

With the retreat a good % of the gun losses is part of the bigger calibers (150s for instance) that are hard to replace, and veichles.

The story happens here, and starts to dot many spots of the front.

The Soviets aptly advance with just a division, a sacrificial lamb to protect their more noteworthy and strong units.

Numbers pulled out are quite alarming, a Soviet Corps with 32 CV (plus the SUs)... in the combat lot.

On map the Panzers are put to shame by Infantries, the SS (That I remember you have 3 Pz. Battallions SU within) barely hold a bigger number of nominal CV.

The artificial 'quality' of Russians and 'dequality' of Germans is neatly felt here already before the NM hit to come in '43.
To me it is definitely an off putting notion for the game as here my reply ...

A) Attack the weak formation / sacrificial lamb (But lose 50% of the CCP and wear my troops)
B) Do nothing and wait for the next attack at the terms of the Russians

At least it is no disaster but that's also how I'd play if I was the Russians.
But as a German, when you advance, you cannot really toss a regiment forward for it to be smashed because you'd give Guard Promotions stuff to your opponent and Axis is not swimming in replacements.

Maybe I should evaluate to attack the 16-16 stack but I suspect if I do that I'll lose lots of tanks and troops that I can hardly replace.



[image]local://upfiles/36315/5594DADE979D4A8A8CB87E9E9FEE4D67.jpg[/image]



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/1/2022 12:56:54 PM)

T78 - Soviet Advance

The Hungarians barely hold against an Soviet Corp, at the cost of the fortifications to be shrinking.

Nimble Russian cavalry wrap around a German division with fortified zone, and said division is subsequently routed by frontal attack.

This is the weakest sector of the Axis front entirely and must receive troops from somewhere else. It appears the brunt of the Soviet winter attack is to develop from Tambov to Rostov. For now at least.





[image]local://upfiles/36315/4FA93D2DB7DD4E64912D0B9D5EC46071.jpg[/image]



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/1/2022 1:10:36 PM)

T78 - Soviet Advance

Even the 'fresh' high TOE Panzer divisions cannot hold their ground. Given, they arrived to patch the front. That one moved from Rostov to there in pratically -3- turns. (It was one of the 4 shown at Stalino zone some turns ago)

The G.D. Elite included, that sure marched a grand amount of distance through turns from the Caucasus where it was operating - was worth a spittle of CV compared to the triumphant Soviet Corps.

Another of the Panzer division, kept in reserve, intervened and lost 40+ Panzer in a successful (only one) defensive combat.

The amount of 150s being destroyed in the retreats skyrocketed here, going well well past the weekly production of that type of gun. And I so expect for a variety of 'heavy hitters'.

Here as well the Russians tend to screen their relevant formations with less prominent ones (well maybe not so much for the Guard cavalry corps) so that they can better recover fatigue (I assume at least) and CCPs if they have movement left if not adjacent to enemy hexes and on their own original hexes.

That's the last of the zone of operations of Soviet offensives for now.

There may not be a grand encirclement yet but it's clear a supposedly weaker Soviet needs not to wait for some Axis dilution and hammer on the Axis minors to achieve a result as per history - but can lead a multiple thread offensive and bleed the Germans directly.

The situation is only to worsen on the Axis field due to the looming National Morale drop. In general it's very, very discomforting.





[image]local://upfiles/36315/571AD10BC1C043069A58E53A1DF6CC34.jpg[/image]



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/1/2022 1:18:32 PM)

T78 - Maikop Repairs

For all it may be relevant, as long as 'enough' freight arrives in the depot, the repairs go beyond the 1%.

I do not know what is exactly the 'enough' level but 200ish gave me 1% advance and 400+ gave me a larger jump of % in repair.

I needed to airlift it into the Depot as otherwise if it is a non 4 Priority gets 0, and if it is a 4 Priority it has troops closeby and distributes the freight to the troops.

I think this solves the repair business limited to 1% as I've tried and tinkered and drew my own conclusions at least.

I'd suggest designers, if you read this, that if there is something on 'Priority Repair', the location draws freight in order to repair whatever is desired to be repaired at the maximum speed / percentage allowed. Because the only thing I can deduct is that there was no Freight for repairs and thus was proceeding as slow as a slug. (Pratically a 'material shortage' effect).

[image]local://upfiles/36315/CE7176B7238647DCAC893D710CD71155.jpg[/image]



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/1/2022 1:32:36 PM)

T78 - 'Panzer' Reasoning

Sorry for pool quality, big collage.

Here the two battles that included the Panzers in the Don River sector.
They're both with the 'Destroyed Damaged' enabled so that players can see the real destroyed elements.
I only recently discovered what that is and it enables the player to see the elements that were only damaged in battle but that after the battle were destroyed. I am not sure of the logic, I assume it's like a panzer that gets hit at the tracks, can keep firing during the battle but it is not salvageable afterwards - or something like that?

So in truth it's 50 in the first battle and overf 150 in the latter.
So the 30 and 114 figures are rather sugarcoated. We speak of 200 AFV gone, in 2 battles.

To the side you can see the Active Pool and the production.
Anything with a # should be 'old' in terms of production and pretty much not produced anymore or about to get substituted by other products.
26 PzIIIm, 44 PzIvg, 12 PzIIIn ... (Tigers do not fit in Panzer Divisions); and then assault guns and panzerjagers.

If I subtract the 50ish Stug or PzJager from that combat I still face a 150 real panzers loss vs a production of 80 a turn.
A 2:1 ratio. Across 2 single battles there, one of them where the Germans 'won'.

If I barely operate some more around and do some counterattacks and the like the armoured losses will only accrue.

And that single Stalingrad factory alone, that I never destroyed, pratically churns out 70 T34s a turn whilst Germany as nation whole produces 80 non Tiger panzers a turn.

I am not questioning production models or numbers, more like how Panzer smoke themselves in thin air.

Getting now to process the turn proper.

[image]local://upfiles/36315/AD1C8B480F8F4612B32EDF53FE519D16.jpg[/image]



gingerbread -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/1/2022 3:16:13 PM)

Very strange that 202 T-34 can be destroyed when there are only 180 participating. Are AFV that are damaged before the battle targetable? Then the result shown is possible.

The same can be said for the Stug's but some of those were lost to RTR.



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/1/2022 3:49:47 PM)

@Gingerbread: I've not even realized that. Good pointing out. I am not sure if it's a double-dip out of 'Destroyed Damaged' but I do not think it should be even possible...

T78 - What to do?

At first I decided to shove away a shielding division here.

But then I had the rather depressing idea to check the Supply ticker / label.
Only to see that the Soviets have massive supplies poured in - pratically ALL of their units have a green label except 1.
Germans are starving to death if one looks at the colours there.
Yet we both have -1- single rail delivering supplies and I am sure I do not have more mouths to feed or more guns to ammo up than the Soviets in the sector.

The distance from Berlin should be non relevant by now as Freight go via pitstops at worst. So the matter is just how much freight can be movimented per turn.

Local depots here just do not receive freight in any remotely close need to supply the troops.
That sets them to enter in a cycle of defeat-fatigue-defeat-lower morale-fatigue of certain destruction.

There should not be a need to play 'depot-priority-jackpot-gamble-guess' game to signal the system 'I need supplies here: use this railroad to its capacity' (which I'd expect it to go yellow, at least, usage colour wise).


[image]local://upfiles/36315/635F6CEA30274A00982682AB355D5517.jpg[/image]



Jango32 -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/1/2022 4:28:10 PM)

The Soviets never have logistics issues as early as turn 3 of the grand campaign. So it is not surprising that all of them are in the green.

Allegedly they have logistical problems when they enter Poland, but I am unsure of that.



Stamb -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/1/2022 4:29:54 PM)

I think Soviets needs only 30% supply as other 70% they take from a ground of Motherland, even if it is covered under few meters of snow and frozen, + vodka :)

Any options of making super depot here ?


[image]local://upfiles/82464/9127FC182EA24BC9BEA6A89047C624B1.png[/image]



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/1/2022 4:38:17 PM)

T78 - Post Air Supply

Some counterattacks where made to at least keep the 'soak up' formations thinned down.

Two mauled divisions retreated to rearguard and pratically with that the whole of the local Axis reserves have been cast into the fray.

I am clueless on what to do about the supplies and logistic situation by now there, so I expect a forced retreat soon enough because the German forces cannot fight adequately. Railhead or not it matters not if the logistic system fuels 1000 or 2000 freight into that railroad only when it could ferry in much more.

Air supply poured some supply here and there but never adequately enough.

And I have to expect some Hungarian mauling next turn too. But I was bringing there the Pz and Mot division from the Leningrad sector. Far from enough to stem the Soviet advancing onslaught.

Some greenish triangles appeared, but nothing is as green as these Soviet troops that seem to have a holiday vacation in terms of how much they receive, to be at the frontlines.

I start to understand better via these images why folks were saying things like SOviets have no logistical issues.

[image]local://upfiles/36315/0CE2B96311694997B780FC3017A63B2C.jpg[/image]



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/1/2022 5:09:47 PM)

@Stamb: There was a Super Depot but on a lvl 1 Railyard it pulls little to nothing, less than a Port Depot.
I moved the FBD to a Railyard level 2, but then it's far from the front and trucks are back to playing Destruction Derby.

Also for reasons I get infantry divisions with bazillion of fuel and low supply. It's like they also get the wrong things, but it may be a case of me having attached motorized SUs there (more like Stug Battallions to beef them up).

T78 Leningrad

Rejoice, Rejoice (not).

We gained a hex, it was a low fortified clear hex. There was the hope for these divisions to surrender once and for good, but they retreated instead and not will have to be fought in Urban territory...



[image]local://upfiles/36315/D82E4486A3FA4B6B9B43B90699DF1A8B.jpg[/image]



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/1/2022 6:09:27 PM)

T78 - Patching Up...

Here too the Panzers had to take over the frontline duty.

I've some bits of the line held by regiments. Which I believe it is what is considered 'normal'.
But regiments fluctuate from 3 to 6 of nominal CV.
Where by now the Soviets have 20-30 strong units on a regular basis anywhere it matters for them.

As soon as I strip some zone they can also pour troops from the reserves. Axis to 'create' a rearline must ferry thing on and about.

It's like two different gameplays, the A serie gameplay, and the B serie gameplay. At multiple levels.

Even if I was to regiment down all the North Front in the thick forests and let's say gain, 5 or 6 German divisions and I rail them away - the Soviets can simply pop out there a massive force and smack my line cheaply.

With I do not know how many 'Brigades' units that can beef up other units as SU ontop of the normal reserves, they can shift around their punching capability in little to no time, I feel.

I expect 1 or 2 more hexes to be obliterated from the Soviets.

Units that get retreated drop to like, 2 CV. And they remain 2 CV because the supplies are so low that damaged stuff remain damaged and fatigue levels remain mighty high.

That is why so quickly any infantry division that was kept behind was spent ahead on T1, and on T2 the panzers had to move in. And next turn what? Retreating most probably.

I've started to shift some units via rail but since Axis has the rail problem ...

Going to proceed to review the admin stuff for the turn and sealing it.
But the logistic situation beyond my control frustrates me into oblivion - the hammered divisions simply do not recover and I see it extremely dark already since end of '42 without a Stalingrad even remotely on the horizons. Just grand frontal assaults that demolish the Axis formations. Soviet formations bleed hard but it just seem they can ram again the next turn.



[image]local://upfiles/36315/DC479A24B31F4B9795C7D133F3A0F05F.jpg[/image]



Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/1/2022 8:26:26 PM)

This continues to be an exceptional AAR - kudos [:)]!

Re the Soviet supply situation vs your own, I imagine they are benefiting from the Size 9 Railyard at Stalingrad. You don't really have anything to match that in this area so you are always going to be fighting at a supply disadvantage. I think you will likely see the situation turned on its head as you retreat towards the big railyard in Rostov and the double rail lines that supply the smaller railyards around the Donets Basin.

While I empathise with the feeling of discouragement as you feel the initiative switch and see those very strong Rifle Corps I actually think you are still in a very strong position. Your opponent is getting some local success and wearing down some of your units in those areas but IMHO he is going for the low hanging fruit to an extent? If he doesn't start putting pressure on elsewhere on the map you should be able to cycle rested/recuperated divisions down from Leningrad/Moscow and at least keep things under control in the South even if you have to retreat gradually. I think if you have a N-S rail-line you should be able to use that for unit transfers without causing too many problems to your W->E freight lines.

By the looks of things you have enough space to give up so that by the time you have retreated to the Rostov/Donets river line in late spring the river should be unfrozen and you should be able to hold things up for a good while there.

Keep fighting and keeping up the good work with the AAR!



Joel Billings -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/1/2022 8:32:12 PM)

Forgive me if you posted this somewhere in the AAR, but what is your HWM? You are in a very strong situation relative to history, with a million extra Germans while your opponent is short by up to 1/2 million depending on what's in his pool. You seem to be inflicting very high losses on him.



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/1/2022 8:51:49 PM)

@Joel - 710ish. -- Bear in mind from start up to May '42 this was played with the 'Artillery Beta'. -- My idea is to try to keep that til I grab Leningrad, if I manage to.
The high losses are because presently we're under 'Defender Patch' I believe. I've made the point some turns ago when the patch came out, it seems the attacker do very few HPE and the defender many many.

@Sammy - Retreat will be gradual, but already to lose Rhyazan and Voronhez pratically will wash away the feat to have seized Leningrad in terms of high watermark. So supposedly I should try to hold the grounds or content myself with the current High Watermark. As this is my first game so late I am clueless how much in terms of VPs the Soviets will rack up and how quickly.

My perception is that the German situation will be fracturing well faster BUT I do not know the Soviet end of the production. I just see they have pratically no lgostical issues.

So their 'small' army seem to have excellent supplies while German can even have a larger army than historical but simply they cannot supply it adequately (and that I think due to the logistic system priorities more than to freight limits).



Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/1/2022 9:28:41 PM)

It's not an exact science given TB/early capture bonuses but to give you an idea loki was at 705VPs playing Soviets at this point http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4972508



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/2/2022 1:25:45 PM)

T79 - Storming Leningrad North

Not the VP point but ... got it. Oddly, at 1.8.

It has been a bloodshed AND for this turn the Air Supply by the Soviets was not enough to keep them out of Isolation.
I am unsure if the mix of Flak effect and other factors (damaged airplanes out of weather?) have thinned down the Li-2 Fleet or else.
There have been Air Supply mission just the air fleet of Li-2 was not as large as usual.

I even recurred to Heavy Artilleries there - such as the 'Karl Franz' mortars (forgive my Warhammerian nicknaming them) - and of 4 present 1 was destroyed and 3 damaged. That is quite the hammering hit, that the enemy managed to blast them away with counterbattery fire?

I suspect these units can only harbour the 'Karl Franz' so I assume somewhen it may be smart to disband one IF there are two at 50% TOE (Since each can keep 2 of these), I assume 1 is returned to the pool on Disband and then makes a return to the other unit?
I do not know in that case if it goes in the Transit Pool. Then I'd not know how it would work, because 25% of 1 is 0.25. It risks to remain stuck there forever. I actually do not know where a 'Disband' sends the stuff, to the Pool. Yes. But the Active or the Transit?

Probably that can be a good way to track how Disband works, to do it with an almost unique piece.

Anyhow it has been a massive bloodshed, that battle.

The battle engine is particular - a huge chunk of gun loss for Germans are the Anti-Tank guns, and well Flak too (that was attached to the divisions for the Air Supply stuff).

The 'Defender Patch' here shines. The Soviet losses before the 'surrender' were half of the Germans. (I assume the Germans just disabled a bucket and due to prolonged isolation / low supplies forced a surrender? Here I am not sure).

The HPE in general are massively low for the attacker, no matter their level of experience or so. And very high for the supposedly somehow starved (so I think at least, Leningrad is cut since long long and relying on air supply...).

For the German part note here that 50 mm mortars seem decently efficient in attack, and so are the Panzer-Pioneer. - I believe they're 'offensive tools' because in some defensive battles they're useless, or so it was in this turn for sure.

[image]local://upfiles/36315/1F13885386434A3BB3D2359649CDB7DF.jpg[/image]



AlbertN -> RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG (1/2/2022 1:39:06 PM)

T79 - Around Tambov

Here the Soviet advance this turn was stalled.

Here you can see down below the Soviets, their Guard forces that were held at bay (given a Panzer division intervened, as it was a reserve, but take note the non entrenched Panzer division contributed only 93 starting CV vs the almost 200 of the entrenched Infantry divisions - that before the fort decay though).

If we check the Hit per Element of the Soviets, that is very low. Now I may feel the numbers somehow correct there as the Soviets used forms of 'mass combat'. But then the Germans have insanely high (averagely) numbers in comparison.

We have some oddities there - like the Panzer Pioneer squads, the 50mm Mortars and other German weapon systems that hit nothing defensively or barely fire? Or do not fire at all, these 160mm Stielgrenade guns firing 0 ammos, and thus hitting 0 targets?

Now I do not know the ins and outs of combat. I assume if some element is hit before they get in range, they may not fire. - Like artilleries fire first and if the mortars are disabled they won't fire! But that the 100% of some ground element was disabled before any could fire... I do not know.

This combat though has been held in CLEAR terrain, with HEAVY SNOW / BLIZZARD. While the previous one was URBAN and SNOW.

[image]local://upfiles/36315/38FF631D797E44EBACBBDD353B0438E1.jpg[/image]



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