Blinking Radars (Full Version)

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DWReese -> Blinking Radars (12/5/2021 12:35:22 PM)

Can someone direct me to a few scenarios that have "blinking radars?" Those seemed to be very popular a few years ago, and I'd like to take a look at the Lua code that was used to make that possible. (I'm not too savvy with Lua.) Just a couple of scenario examples would be fine.

I'm not sure if they were ever used in any "official" scenarios. I think that they have mostly been used in user-created scenarios.

Thanks in advance.




stww2 -> RE: Blinking Radars (12/5/2021 1:01:38 PM)

Kushan's "El Dorado Canyon" I think. From the CSP. I know I've seen blinking radars elsewhere but annoyingly I can't remember any others at the moment.




DWReese -> RE: Blinking Radars (12/5/2021 1:18:53 PM)

Thanks. I'll check there.




SeaQueen -> RE: Blinking Radars (12/5/2021 3:26:34 PM)

I think the problem with "blinking radars" is that there's a lot of misunderstanding of its application, so people often don't realize the benefits of it and gave up. Partially, it depends on there being a certain amount of mobility for it to make SAM sites more survivable. "Blinking" a fixed SAM site doesn't really help it much once it's been spotted, so there's a tendency to leave the acquisition radars on. That's why "blinking" is easier to implement for naval SAMs than land based, because with land based SAMs you need to also include the code to make them reposition. The downside to that is that it makes it relatively easy to plot the locations of the SAM sites. Every time they light up, they lose the element of surprise.

It also depends on understanding that a single fixed SAM site only represents a battalion. To maintain situational awareness, they need SOMETHING feeding them data when their radar is off. That means you also need to include the regimental, brigade and potentially division level radars as well. Once you integrate them, and see it as an whole system where each radar has its role in the kill chain, I think SAM blinking scripts of various sorts will not only improve the survivability of SAMs, but their effectiveness. Now, you don't need to keep something on at the pointy end of the spear (battalion level SAM sites) just to keep them from being schwacked. The regimental, brigade and division level radars can turn on as necessary to keep everyone aware of what's happening, and the battalion level radars only kick in when something is close enough to shoot at, or the kill chain is broken because the higher echelon radar got hit. That keeps them hidden until the last possible moment.

I've been thinking a lot on how to do this. I think that's the next level up in sophistication for modeling IADS in CMO/CMANO. The key to realizing the benefits of blinking is understanding the organization and hierarchy of the IADS system and how that kill chain works.




DWReese -> RE: Blinking Radars (12/5/2021 4:10:10 PM)

SQ,

Thanks for chiming in. Your vast knowledge is much appreciated.

I'd like to explore Blinking Radars NOT associated with SAMs, and on naval vessels.

I've been recreating attacks on surface ships, and exploring what happens. For example, if every ship in a group had its radar on, then they are all hit with HARMs. If none of them turn their radars on (and they aren't protected by another radar source), then they are easily destroyed by missiles such as Harpoons. Obviously, a surface group sailing without air cover will need to turn on at least one radar for protection.

I've come to realize that just one ship with active radar is sufficient. The other ships will activate their FCRs when then are going to start firing at the incoming missiles. (I have never had a problem with SAMs turning on their radars in the game when the time to shoot presents itself.)

So, I've seen the code for the Blinking Radar units on SAM sites. Does it work on just regular search radars? I assume that it does, but I haven't seen any scenario with just blinking radars (not affiliated with SAMs). Do you know of any? Also, what do you think of the idea? Is it something that is actually done? There is a window (I don't know the time frame) whereby the firing unit can shoot at a radar which was recently de-activated. Perhaps it depends on the radar. Perhaps there is a set time period.

Perhaps you can shed some light on this topic.

Thanks again.




SeaQueen -> RE: Blinking Radars (12/5/2021 9:17:44 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese
I'd like to explore Blinking Radars NOT associated with SAMs, and on naval vessels.


SAMs, naval vessels, it's all the same thing, basically. Keep in mind, relative to a jet, a ship is basically sitting still.

quote:


I've been recreating attacks on surface ships, and exploring what happens. For example, if every ship in a group had its radar on, then they are all hit with HARMs. If none of them turn their radars on (and they aren't protected by another radar source), then they are easily destroyed by missiles such as Harpoons. Obviously, a surface group sailing without air cover will need to turn on at least one radar for protection.


Maybe. You need to plan these things. There's a lot of advantages to doing things like detaching a small number of surface combatants from the main body in order to screen it. That's called scouting, if you ever read Fleet Tactics, which every CMO/CMANO player should. You might do things like move a few units hundreds of miles forward, independent of the main body and turn on their radars. Their job would be to warn the main body when something is coming, so that they can remain silent. You're playing risk games there, increasing the risk for a small portion of the force, while decreasing it for the most powerful part. Another trick you can do when you have lots of ships of the same type, is emit nothing unique. That way, for example, if you have your force divided into three groups, turn one AEGIS (or some other type) radar on in each of them, so an observer can't really tell which one they want to focus their attention on. They know three CRUDES are out there, but they don't know which one is important, and they don't necessarily know what is. In a good scenario, some things are always more important than other things. Part of being a good player is deciding what you're willing to risk, and what you need to protect.

quote:


I've come to realize that just one ship with active radar is sufficient. The other ships will activate their FCRs when then are going to start firing at the incoming missiles. (I have never had a problem with SAMs turning on their radars in the game when the time to shoot presents itself.)


Often, yes. Maybe the above will help you have some ideas about how you might be able to take advantage of it?

quote:

So, I've seen the code for the Blinking Radar units on SAM sites. Does it work on just regular search radars?


Heh, a regular search radar is an air search radar in my mind, but yeah it should. All it does is change the EMCON on the designated units.

quote:

I assume that it does, but I haven't seen any scenario with just blinking radars (not affiliated with SAMs). Do you know of any?


I don't, but I'm weird. I'm a bad person to ask. I don't play a lot of the commercial or community scenarios. I actually find them very frustrating. I often find myself in the position of "fighting the scenario," and not the battle. It has to do with the fact that people are often trying harder to write Tom Clancy novels than actually create an interesting tactical problem. They end up with all kinds of inappropriate injects, and often slave themselves to a concept of "balance," which I think is rooted in a misunderstanding of what the actual challenges of a given scenario might be. They also often have weird scoring criteria which have the effect of quantifying performance in terms of a weighted loss-exchange ratio, rather than how I think about problems, which is, "Did I accomplish the stated mission objectives within the stated acceptable levels of risk?" If I do that, I'm golden. In some scenarios I might be willing to lose everything in the course of getting weapons on target (e.g. Doolittle Raids) or I might be only willing to lose a very small amount in spite of having a superior force (e.g. Package Q raid). It just depends. One of the things I spend a lot of time thinking about is how to express "mission success" so that the score is not just "I lost X of mine and you lost Y of yours, if aX < bY where 'a' and 'b' are arbitrary coefficients then I win." That sucks. I hate it. It makes for stupid scenarios. It hurts my head. Don't do it.


quote:


Also, what do you think of the idea? Is it something that is actually done? There is a window (I don't know the tim
e frame) whereby the firing unit can shoot at a radar which was recently de-activated. Perhaps it depends on the radar. Perhaps there is a set time period.


If the emitter is a tracking radar then the window is the flyout time of the weapon associated with it, if you're shooting an ARM at it. I think it gets back to what I was talking about in the previous post, not everything needs to be emitting all of the time. There's reasons to emit and reasons not to emit. You need something to emit in order to maintain a certain amount of situational awareness, but you have to balance that against the fact that emitting also makes you vulnerable in some ways as well. If you've been found, then who cares? Light 'em all up! There's no benefit to trying to hide anymore. This gets into the cat and mouse of it a bit. What do you reveal versus what do you conceal? Maybe you sometimes want to reveal a little bit of yourself, if it's going to reveal something about them too, and allow you an information advantage.

Maybe in the beginning I might start off emitting things very selectively, and then when I find what I'm looking for, I might turn things on more steady to keep them fixed, while I position for a robust strike, then switch to the offense on them when I'm at an advantage, now I've revealed myself, so I turn on all my radars on because there's no sense in hiding anymore and I need to deal with a potential counter strike from the survivors.

Could it be encoded in LUA? Maybe. My goal is to encode a smarter and more hierarchical IADS. I think I'd strike a better balance in terms of reveal/conceal. I'm sure something else could be encoded for a naval scenario as well, if you understood the problem well.






DWReese -> RE: Blinking Radars (12/5/2021 9:56:47 PM)

SQ,

Thanks so much for the very informative, and much detailed explanations. That really helps.

I have used picket ships in the past, and they can help under the proper circumstances. That was a good suggestion.

I agree with everything that you said, and they were all very good points.

In my last paragraph I apparently wasn't very clear. What I was asking is really a very simple question. It is: If a radar is active, and it detected by the OpFor, the the OpFor turns off the radar, how long do you have to be able to shoot at the radar before you are given the message that the "radar is not emitting at this time" message? Generically, Is it a minute? Is it 30 seconds? Is it two minutes? Or, does it change depending on the specific radar in question?

BTW: I now do exactly as you have suggested regarding the scoring of scenarios. I don't really assign points for "killing stuff." Instead, I award points for accomplishing missions. I do take away points of I happen to lose too many assets in the accomplishment of the goal.





SeaQueen -> RE: Blinking Radars (12/5/2021 11:19:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese
It is: If a radar is active, and it detected by the OpFor, the the OpFor turns off the radar, how long do you have to be able to shoot at the radar before you are given the message that the "radar is not emitting at this time" message? Generically, Is it a minute? Is it 30 seconds? Is it two minutes? Or, does it change depending on the specific radar in question?


If it's an ARM, you've lost the opportunity, you need it turn on again, unless it's like AARGM, which has radar as well. If you think you can stimulate the site to emit using something else (maybe a drone, a decoy, or an inbound strike package), you might choose to fire the ARM pre-emptively, using bearing-only-launch, in the hope that the tracking radar will light up, and the ARM will lock on to them.

That's whole dimension to planning. When do you want to shoot reactively, versus pre-emptively? If I plan it so that I know when something is going to be in the SAM range, then I can fire ARMs pre-emptively so that they can be near the SAM site when they light up, and the bad guy missile won't have time to launch and fly out before your ARM hit and leaves it unguided. This gets into the whole, "seconds count," aspect of the game. If you've got a missile that's going to be over the SAM site in 2 minutes, and the thing you're moving through the SAM's range ring is going to enter it in 2 minutes, then it's protected. If you're late on the shot, then there's a few seconds where it's not protected, and that might be all it takes for the SAM to kill one of yours.

quote:


BTW: I now do exactly as you have suggested regarding the scoring of scenarios. I don't really assign points for "killing stuff." Instead, I award points for accomplishing missions. I do take away points of I happen to lose too many assets in the accomplishment of the goal.


I might assign points for killing stuff, but it's usually very specific stuff. Killing a defending fighter probably doesn't get me points. If I can avoid it, it's just as well, but dropping a bomb on one of the scenario objectives might, if the goal of the scenario is to damage or destroy the target.





BDukes -> RE: Blinking Radars (12/6/2021 12:45:04 AM)

Hi All

Here's an unfinished scenario you can mine things out of. I use it to goof around and have no plans to post it to the community pile. Lots of code from other people around here (Knighthawk, Kushan in particular) but some of the implementations might be more unique. I don't think I have the shoot and scoot in but maybe some other things that could be helpful.

I think the only noise I can add is I try and think about why EMCONS are WRA's would be used. I'm aware of over modeling things as well, got to think about whether the AI would have the C3M or insight to make a certain decision.

SQ feedback is pretty helpful as is a chart recently posted in the DB string. I'll be banging away at it but I think the chain of detection is worth looking at too.

Mike





DWReese -> RE: Blinking Radars (12/6/2021 12:51:00 AM)

Thanks, Mike.

I just downloaded, and I'll be playing around with it.

Thanks again.

Doug




BDukes -> RE: Blinking Radars (12/6/2021 12:52:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

Thanks, Mike.

I just downloaded, and I'll be playing around with it.

Thanks again.

Doug


No prob[:)]




temkc5 -> RE: Blinking Radars (12/6/2021 1:19:49 PM)

Also try this Shoot-and-Scoot SAMs
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4560384




BDukes -> RE: Blinking Radars (12/6/2021 2:49:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BDukes

Hi All

Here's an unfinished scenario you can mine things out of. I use it to goof around and have no plans to post it to the community pile. Lots of code from other people around here (Knighthawk, Kushan in particular) but some of the implementations might be more unique. I don't think I have the shoot and scoot in but maybe some other things that could be helpful.

I think the only noise I can add is I try and think about why EMCONS are WRA's would be used. I'm aware of over modeling things as well, got to think about whether the AI would have the C3M or insight to make a certain decision.

SQ feedback is pretty helpful as is a chart recently posted in the DB string. I'll be banging away at it but I think the chain of detection is worth looking at too.

Mike




Forgot to mention. I used special actions to build out little scenarios within the scenarios. So make sure you look at those as that is where maybe the most value is as it adds stuff. Didn't document too well but hopefully the buttons explain enough..hehe[:)] Feel free to fly around too[:)]






BDukes -> RE: Blinking Radars (12/6/2021 2:52:26 PM)

Anybody put together flowcharts or matrix logic kind of things for this? It can be a wormhole but covering the basics might be helpful too.

Not sure if anybody is into rpg and knows what Mythic is but lua does provide the means to implement a few things out of it.

Mike




tmoilanen -> RE: Blinking Radars (12/7/2021 12:14:02 PM)

Hi - below is a LUA script that I use to blink radars on and off. You will need to add all of the units that you want to exhibit this behavior to the "myunitname" table. I try and use uniform unit names (eg '651 RTB') to make it easier to loop through all of the desired units.

This example gives each unit a 50% chance (myemcon = math.random(1,2)) to activate radars (or leave radar active if it is already on.) You can adjust the myemcon variable as needed to decrease the probability.

To enable this in a scenario, I typically will create an Event with a regular time trigger of 15 minutes and then have the LUA script as the action.

Hope this helps.

myside = 'VKS'
myunitname = {651,652,653,654,151,152,153,154,155,156,491,492,251,252,253,254,255,256,981,982,983,984,985,986,987,988}
-- table with unit numbers - use uniform naming for your radar units, eg '651 RTB'

for i = 1,#myunitname -- this is a loop through all of the units in the myunitname table
do
unitname = myunitname[i] ..'RTB' --unit to be checked/activated
myunit = ScenEdit_GetUnit({side=myside,name=unitname})
print(myunit)

print(myunit.obeyEMCON)
myunit.obeyEMCON = true --set obey EMCON value
print(myunit.obeyEMCON)
myemcon = math.random(1,2) --get myemcon variable (1,2) is 50% chance that radar is activated
if myemcon == 1 then 
ScenEdit_SetEMCON('Unit',unitname,'Inherit=false;Radar=Active') --activate radar if condition is true (myemcom = 1)
else
ScenEdit_SetEMCON('Unit',unitname,'Inherit=false;Radar=Passive') --deactivate radar if condition is false (myemcon <> 1)
print(myunit.sensors)
end
end




jannas34 -> RE: Blinking Radars (12/21/2021 7:12:04 AM)

Agreed there are serious issues with the radar model




jannas34 -> RE: Blinking Radars (12/21/2021 7:56:14 AM)

LOL 5 years for simple feature

not happening




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