Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (Full Version)

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Sir.Arnold -> Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/10/2021 6:01:12 PM)

The depot route is currently established automatically

Players can only rough control the supply transportation route by adjusting the supply priority

This sometimes leads to small problems

Does the production team have a plan that allows players to manually create depot routes?




Joel Billings -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/10/2021 8:28:29 PM)

No, the system is as intended, with priority being the mechanism by which players can influence the shipments.




Sir.Arnold -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/10/2021 10:04:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

No, the system is as intended, with priority being the mechanism by which players can influence the shipments.


Another thing, is there a solution to the production bug of the Soviet 76.2mm AT Gun?




Joel Billings -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/10/2021 10:43:37 PM)

I know there were changes made to production, both code and data. IIRC, the issue you are talking about was "fixed", yes.




AlbertN -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/12/2021 1:23:56 AM)

@Joel

The real problem is that the priority system here does not really 'work'.

Here in this turn Talinn receives Freight from Kiel, via rail and not via sea.
Next what Talinn depot does? Send Freight from there to ... Orel? When they could just rail it eastward to depots toward Leningrad?

Sorry but there is no way on earth to claim that the priority system here works.

Sonda - the depot on the coast to the side, is well stocked up. (Since Russian winter, it served the Narva line...)
As soon as that one goes down to anything that is not a 4, that Freight will just reflux in all the wrong ways, steal railroad capacity and end up in places like Rostov, Kursk, or Orel... when all I need is that it takes the rail to the east, journey a tenful of hexes and gets to fuel the Leningrad offensive.

The very same is for Pskov depot. I cannot litterally drop it to any other priority, or I am sure that freight will go to other places so it may as well sit here for whenever I need to retreat to this line.

At the same time I cannot tell the depots to 'stop stocking up' because to do that I need to lower the priority of the depots. Which means dispersal of supposedly needed accumulation.

To me that is not normal, highly illogic and disfunctional as system.

Therefore yes - I believe the game needs an improvement to the Freight routing system among other things.
Something I'd suggest is pretty simple - non NSS depots push and shove Freight to the closemost higher priority ones.

So let's say Talinn is at 3 here, and Sonda is still at 4. And Sonda is the closemost at 4. There, Talinn tries to push and shove in that direction its Freight. A 4 still stocks up or distributes to units.

Now that works for existing depots that are not NSS. NSS are the pulsing hearts in general - and it's fine and fair that they works as they do.
The problem is only for existing 'once upon a time' frontline depots, that remained well stocked up... and that will simply disperse their freight instead of forwarding it to 'their' front.

Pretty much the need is an IF conditional, IF NSS do 'as you know', IF non NSS depot ... some new code.






[image]local://upfiles/36315/781C6F0BF93843288E874778B4C95483.jpg[/image]




Yogol -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/14/2021 4:50:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Therefore yes - I believe the game needs an improvement to the Freight routing system among other things.
Something I'd suggest is pretty simple - non NSS depots push and shove Freight to the closemost higher priority ones.



I agree with this.

I have cases where a unit draws freight from Tilsit using (and losing) trucks instead of Gumbinnen which is within 3 hexes, because depot Gumbinnen is sending all it's freight to units north of Jekapils that are... closer to Tilsit!

Or a case where a unit near Riga is drawing freight all the way from Suwalki instead of Memel even when Memel still has 14000+ supply.

I do not know how to calculates which unit gets freight from where, but I doubt that it optimises correctly.




DeletedUser44 -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/14/2021 7:42:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogol


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Therefore yes - I believe the game needs an improvement to the Freight routing system among other things.
Something I'd suggest is pretty simple - non NSS depots push and shove Freight to the closemost higher priority ones.



I agree with this.

I have cases where a unit draws freight from Tilsit using (and losing) trucks instead of Gumbinnen which is within 3 hexes, because depot Gumbinnen is sending all it's freight to units north of Jekapils that are... closer to Tilsit!

Or a case where a unit near Riga is drawing freight all the way from Suwalki instead of Memel even when Memel still has 14000+ supply.

I do not know how to calculates which unit gets freight from where, but I doubt that it optimises correctly.

quote:

Something I'd suggest is pretty simple - non NSS depots push and shove Freight to the closemost higher priority ones.


I have had cases where my freight was seemingly all going to Tallinn, whereas little seemed to be going to AGC or AGS. But isn't this all currently adjustable by lowering the priority of an over-stocked depot?

In my case, I just back down Tallinn's priority for a couple of turns.

Is that not sufficient?




Stamb -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/14/2021 8:25:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

@Joel

The real problem is that the priority system here does not really 'work'.

Here in this turn Talinn receives Freight from Kiel, via rail and not via sea.
Next what Talinn depot does? Send Freight from there to ... Orel? When they could just rail it eastward to depots toward Leningrad?

Sorry but there is no way on earth to claim that the priority system here works.

Sonda - the depot on the coast to the side, is well stocked up. (Since Russian winter, it served the Narva line...)
As soon as that one goes down to anything that is not a 4, that Freight will just reflux in all the wrong ways, steal railroad capacity and end up in places like Rostov, Kursk, or Orel... when all I need is that it takes the rail to the east, journey a tenful of hexes and gets to fuel the Leningrad offensive.

The very same is for Pskov depot. I cannot litterally drop it to any other priority, or I am sure that freight will go to other places so it may as well sit here for whenever I need to retreat to this line.

At the same time I cannot tell the depots to 'stop stocking up' because to do that I need to lower the priority of the depots. Which means dispersal of supposedly needed accumulation.

To me that is not normal, highly illogic and disfunctional as system.

Therefore yes - I believe the game needs an improvement to the Freight routing system among other things.


+1

In some thread people were not connection north/center/south lines to prevent this :D
Unfortunately i do not remember the thread nor a result.




AlbertN -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/14/2021 8:35:43 PM)

Talinn is an example - it's not a specific.

And it seems to have some port-routines wonky as posted in the AAR.

I am not a logistic expert, but I can see the obvious. In general a Berlin to Orel and Berlin to Leningrad sector plus Talinn to Leningrad sector is better than a Berlin and Talinn to Orel and Berlin to Leningrad. With the due percentages.





DeletedUser44 -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/14/2021 9:05:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Talinn is an example - it's not a specific.

And it seems to have some port-routines wonky as posted in the AAR.

I am not a logistic expert, but I can see the obvious. In general a Berlin to Orel and Berlin to Leningrad sector plus Talinn to Leningrad sector is better than a Berlin and Talinn to Orel and Berlin to Leningrad. With the due percentages.




I know that the amount of Railroad capacity available is a function of { if (Railyard_size >= 2) then rail_capacity += (Railyard_size * 10k) } for all Railyards within 30 hexes.

How do you know you are not running into this upper limit?

It isn't like this value is displayed.




panzer51 -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/14/2021 9:13:13 PM)

quote:

I know that the amount of Railroad capacity available is a function of { if (Railyard_size >= 2) then rail_capacity += (Railyard_size * 10k) } for all Railyards within 30 hexes.


So if hypothetically I have RY=2 every 5 hexes between point A and point B. How much capacity then I have, if points A and B are 30 hexes apart?




AlbertN -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/14/2021 9:20:22 PM)

@Sauron

Maybe I've explained me poorly.
I do not wish for manual things or to have to gain a massive headache out of the logistics.

What I mean is that if I've Talinn with Priority 4 and let's say 5000 stocked Freight, as soon as I lower Talinn of priority, that 5000 Freight will try to move to another location.

I do not need to know HOW MUCH freight I can move there. It should be simple, either Talinn moves it to the closer depot with higher priority or toward the closer frontline (Enemy hex?)

It is a logical process of prioritizing.

If you say 'You do not have enough freight to move the freight' that is entirely and absolutely non relevant here. Because then Talinn freight remains in Talinn and does not goo all the way to Orel.

On the other hand the Talinn to Orel moves 'steals' freight. Because it moves a longer route and 'eats' more rail capacity. Unless I entirely misunderstood the logistics there. It've freight that goes 'against' the south-to-north lane for the Baltics toward Leningrad, before to just conflux in the general eastward direction.

What defines that Talinn sends Freight to Level 4 Depot at Orel and let's say not ... at Sonda that is a few hexes away or some other level 4 Depot a few more hexes to the east?
This is my point. And what I feel wrong.




GibsonPete -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/14/2021 9:37:14 PM)

AlbertN +1




Sir.Arnold -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/15/2021 12:32:37 AM)

In a word, there are some small problems in the depot system. Now it depends on whether the official wants to correct these problems




Yogol -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/16/2021 9:39:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sir.Arnold

In a word, there are some small problems in the depot system.


I wouldn't call it small. Because of the system, there are far-away depots in my game that use 14000 trucks (!!!) in a single turn to get freight to units, instead of having those units draw freight from closer depots that have stocked freight in them and thus needing lesser trucks.

And I have no way of stopping that.




loki100 -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/16/2021 9:47:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogol


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sir.Arnold

In a word, there are some small problems in the depot system.


I wouldn't call it small. Because of the system, there are far-away depots in my game that use 14000 trucks (!!!) in a single turn to get freight to units, instead of having those units draw freight from closer depots that have stocked freight in them and thus needing lesser trucks.

And I have no way of stopping that.


well you do - unit supply priority, and a well laid out depot system.

Quite simply apart from in the opening turns I have never ever seen this sort of thing.




Yogol -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/16/2021 10:07:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogol


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sir.Arnold

In a word, there are some small problems in the depot system.


I wouldn't call it small. Because of the system, there are far-away depots in my game that use 14000 trucks (!!!) in a single turn to get freight to units, instead of having those units draw freight from closer depots that have stocked freight in them and thus needing lesser trucks.

And I have no way of stopping that.


well you do - unit supply priority, and a well laid out depot system.

Quite simply apart from in the opening turns I have never ever seen this sort of thing.


Do you have a post somewhere with pictures of such a well-laid-out depot system of -say- turn 25 of the grand campaign for the troops that attack Moscow (and the troops that protect the flanks of that drive)? Because no matter how I set it up, it keeps drawing from far-away depots.

I tried a 0-0-0-0-4 depot setup but then it takes freight from the front-4 to sent freight to the flanks, using way too many trucks.

I also tried 0-4-0-0-4 to lower the first 4 to 0 once it has fright, hoping it would go to the front-4 but that didn't work at all.

I also tried 0-3-3-3-4 hoping the 3s would provide freight to the flanks and the 4 to the front, but it won't do that and use the front 4 to give freight to the flanks even when there are 3-depots nearby.
For example, on my turn 24, Volojolamsk used a whooping 19.657 trucks to supply units as far south as Mogilev.




loki100 -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/16/2021 11:18:51 AM)

There are 3 bits to the problem and they interact, so:

a) in 1941 there are places where the Axis player will be effectively off the supply grid, especially as the weather changes and motorised costs rise. I have my own instinctive feel for where this line is based on how I work the depot system, but its all judgement not rules. To make it worse, my safe line is game losing in that you will fail the 1942 HWM test, so in effect the German player needs to go out of the comfort zone

b) never forget you have tools to set demand as well as to influence supply. Keep a really close eye on the army freight table in the logistics log. If an army is constantly not getting what it asks for, drop the supply priority. This makes a real difference, one reason for long traces (and the hit on trucks) is the units are trying to get the supply you tell them to, so simply tell them not to. Oddly they may do better looking for (& getting) less than trying to get more - trucks stay in units (=MP and CV), trucks don't get damaged in supply traces.

I personally think a lot of German players really miss this side of the equation, equally the Soviet player needs to keep it in mind as 1943 progresses and they push back towards Minsk/Kiev etc

c) Layout.

Very roughly I divide the map into 4 zones

ci) the deep rear, here depots are mostly at 0 or 1, the few that are higher are usually connected to either a base with level bombers (& I don't buy the LW is useless arguments) or, later on, where I am constructing fort lines
cii) Pskov-Minsk-Kiev, I put these to pri 4, let them fill up, drop to 2 and the supply goes forward (& I can get it consistently to go forward)
ciii) the immediate rear, these depots get #3, some at #4 if there is a nearby LW base that matters, usually these depots are not actively supplying the front line formations but some migt
civ) the front. My best guess is that units ideally use depots within 10 hexes so this is that zone. I've come to a view the best layout is a layer of 2 pri 4 depots behind each combat sector/rail line

So I avoid long traces in part by using the demand tools. I never see say Minsk's freight wandering off to Poland, I do sometimes see it pop up in the Ukraine. I don't care - I live somewhere where the nearest rail system is somewhat random in peace time and the biggest threat is an irate otter - in other words SNAFU. But these oddities never really add up to a problem.

Final bit, at least till late 1942, the game assumes an axis player doing well has a stressed supply system. I, for one, do not want to see a WiTE2 variant with an 'easy' supply system.

edit - never forget a fundamental rule, a depot can only send freight to one at a higher priority, so by definition a pri 4 depot will only supply combat units not other depots. That is why the Minsk etc trick works.




carlkay58 -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/16/2021 11:58:25 AM)

This is for Yogol:

This is Turn 26 Northern Supply Situation:


[image]local://upfiles/35705/29281A3A3B534101AA485CA700FB8D5B.jpg[/image]




carlkay58 -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/16/2021 11:59:10 AM)

And the southern stiuation:


[image]local://upfiles/35705/986D4A1AED964D5EB98BC505C82D68BF.jpg[/image]




Yogol -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/16/2021 12:00:48 PM)

Thanks. That looks indeed very good. No looooong lines, like in mine.

Can you please re-post that picture with the railroads and depot levels on it?




carlkay58 -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/16/2021 12:03:01 PM)

Those are from my AAR at https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4989226&mpage=1&key=

You can look there for a game that went to turn 45 with an emphasis on Axis supply and logistics.

I have decided it is time for me to do another game and AAR focusing on Axis logistics because of all of the complaints/claims/etc. of how it is broken/unworkable/pro-Axis/pro-Soviet.




DeletedUser44 -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/16/2021 12:27:27 PM)

I'm so retarded.

I should have inspected Albert's map example to better understand the issues you guys are running into.

Why is there so many Priority 4's?

Of course P4s are going to accumulate supply. They cannot forward it on to another depot.

I am not seeing the same issues because I am very careful about dropping P4 depots everywhere.

IMO, you have way too many P4s.

Unless you are intentionally trying to accumulate freight stockpiles, the only place you need P4s are those depots directly servicing the front-line.

Otherwise, you will run into distribution issues.... like the ones you are encountering.

I am with loki on this one.

quote:

Quite simply apart from in the opening turns I have never ever seen this sort of thing.




Stamb -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/16/2021 12:48:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

I'm so retarded.

I should have inspected Albert's map example to better understand the issues you guys are running into.

Why is there so many Priority 4's?

Of course P4s are going to accumulate supply. They cannot forward it on to another depot.

I am not seeing the same issues because I am very careful about dropping P4 depots everywhere.

IMO, you have way too many P4s.

Unless you are intentionally trying to accumulate freight stockpiles, the only place you need P4s are those depots directly servicing the front-line.

Otherwise, you will run into distribution issues.... like the ones you are encountering.

I am with loki on this one.

quote:

Quite simply apart from in the opening turns I have never ever seen this sort of thing.



And the problem is that having system like NSS 0 0 1 1 2 2 3 3 and 4 4 on the front is less effective than 0 0 1 1 4 3 3 4 4. As for unknown reasons, for me, stockpiling freight and then dropping priority of that depot is more effective then just having an incremental line of priories. I would expect that if there is enough trains and rails capacity to deliver freight to both frontline with #4 and #4 in the middle, then in case of leaving some depots in the back to #3 would make no difference as all of the freight that could get to a #4 will get there and rest will stay in #3.
But as i said, i do not understand that logic and i made some topic showing that, IMHO, super depots somehow can get a lot of freight, while without a super depot you will get MUCH less freight for now obvious reasons.
I did not try it, but i guess that even when setting all depots at 0, and only 1 depot on a front to #4 (simulating that all freight should go there) will produce worse result than a super depot.
Personally to me it looks like that without a super depot - rail transport is not working in full power. Unfortunately you can not afford such a luxury as keeping FBDs on top of a depot.




AlbertN -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/16/2021 12:53:49 PM)

@Sauron

The accumulation is for 'dire times' or 'refit times'.

For instance before Soviet Winter to have accumulated reserves already there behind the line will help tons in case of a fall back. You have a full depot that can provide to the immediate needs of routed / mauled units.
I can safely say it has helped saving my rear in a few circumstances and it allowed a bunch of the front budge little to nothing.

In my AAR I refitted decently 3 panzer divisions because I had a Depot4 in Smolensk full of freight. Without the need to supposedly drain from the turn by turn going on (but it does for other reasons alas).

That is -why- I have rearline 4 depots. I'd like at least an option to 'freeze what you have but not receive more' added as well because right now the Priority 4 is 'freeze what you have if nothing is in range, but keep demanding freight'. I've let's say Minsk and Kiev that are at 99% freight, massive reserve depots - I can move OKH or some AG HQ there at some point for SU replacements at hand too. Without having a range penalty for command checks in Berlin.

The problem comes when many of these 4 depots are redundant and ... yes I could just need only Kiev and Minsk ... what happens to the freight accumulated.

This is just to explain my reasoning to Sauron.




loki100 -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/16/2021 3:44:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

...


And the problem is that having system like NSS 0 0 1 1 2 2 3 3 and 4 4 on the front is less effective than 0 0 1 1 4 3 3 4 4. As for unknown reasons, for me, stockpiling freight and then dropping priority of that depot is more effective then just having an incremental line of priories. I would expect that if there is enough trains and rails capacity to deliver freight to both frontline with #4 and #4 in the middle, then in case of leaving some depots in the back to #3 would make no difference as all of the freight that could get to a #4 will get there and rest will stay in #3.
But as i said, i do not understand that logic and i made some topic showing that, IMHO, super depots somehow can get a lot of freight, while without a super depot you will get MUCH less freight for now obvious reasons.
I did not try it, but i guess that even when setting all depots at 0, and only 1 depot on a front to #4 (simulating that all freight should go there) will produce worse result than a super depot.
Personally to me it looks like that without a super depot - rail transport is not working in full power. Unfortunately you can not afford such a luxury as keeping FBDs on top of a depot.



Since this has become a depot/freight thread, lets stress the basics. A Super-Depot does not pull more freight into the Soviet Union for the axis player, it distorts where a finite batch of freight goes.

The amount that can be sent in any turn is a capped number that may not be met.

The cap is fundamental, the freight is at the NSS, there are only a finite number of railyards of 2 or more in 30 hexes - that is a limit you can't break.

The amount that is actually sent out is likely to be less for a few reasons:

a) the malus on axis rail transport till April 42
b) You entrained reinforcements around Berlin in the turn - this have grabbed some of that finite rail capacity (lets call them trains)
c) Your rail net is congested, remember that congestion on dual track rails clears at volume/6 (if its 30k or less) and /4 for anything 30-50k. So crudely if you stress your system in one turn, it works less well for some time afterwards.
d) this matters as the 'trains' are represented as SMP, if there is no usage penalty, the freight can go up to 200 hexes, as soon as you generate usage penalties then it quickly becomes far more expensive for each unit to try and make that journey (in other words it calls on more trains to move 1 tonne so there are less trains left).

Why does that 'Minsk at 4' trick work?

Basically at some stage rail penalties have impacted so freight can't reach the front lines but can reach say Minsk. Since Minsk is a 4 it sticks there - very limited combat units are accessing it. When you release it, this batch of freight is not competing with the railyards in the Reich, it takes its 'trains' from the railyards around Minsk - and they have shorter journeys to the front so can overcome larger SMP penalties.

Why does this matter?

Well its all out of sight, but the more you know how to trigger the system to behave with very simple tools (on both the supply and demand side) the better your logistics will be.

And never forget, the system assumes SNAFU, so don't fuss at the occasional oddity. Your dispatcher got lost, couldn't read the writing, was having a bad day, got shot by the partisans ...





Stamb -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/16/2021 5:16:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

...


And the problem is that having system like NSS 0 0 1 1 2 2 3 3 and 4 4 on the front is less effective than 0 0 1 1 4 3 3 4 4. As for unknown reasons, for me, stockpiling freight and then dropping priority of that depot is more effective then just having an incremental line of priories. I would expect that if there is enough trains and rails capacity to deliver freight to both frontline with #4 and #4 in the middle, then in case of leaving some depots in the back to #3 would make no difference as all of the freight that could get to a #4 will get there and rest will stay in #3.
But as i said, i do not understand that logic and i made some topic showing that, IMHO, super depots somehow can get a lot of freight, while without a super depot you will get MUCH less freight for now obvious reasons.
I did not try it, but i guess that even when setting all depots at 0, and only 1 depot on a front to #4 (simulating that all freight should go there) will produce worse result than a super depot.
Personally to me it looks like that without a super depot - rail transport is not working in full power. Unfortunately you can not afford such a luxury as keeping FBDs on top of a depot.



Since this has become a depot/freight thread, lets stress the basics. A Super-Depot does not pull more freight into the Soviet Union for the axis player, it distorts where a finite batch of freight goes.

The amount that can be sent in any turn is a capped number that may not be met.

The cap is fundamental, the freight is at the NSS, there are only a finite number of railyards of 2 or more in 30 hexes - that is a limit you can't break.

The amount that is actually sent out is likely to be less for a few reasons:

a) the malus on axis rail transport till April 42
b) You entrained reinforcements around Berlin in the turn - this have grabbed some of that finite rail capacity (lets call them trains)
c) Your rail net is congested, remember that congestion on dual track rails clears at volume/6 (if its 30k or less) and /4 for anything 30-50k. So crudely if you stress your system in one turn, it works less well for some time afterwards.
d) this matters as the 'trains' are represented as SMP, if there is no usage penalty, the freight can go up to 200 hexes, as soon as you generate usage penalties then it quickly becomes far more expensive for each unit to try and make that journey (in other words it calls on more trains to move 1 tonne so there are less trains left).

Why does that 'Minsk at 4' trick work?

Basically at some stage rail penalties have impacted so freight can't reach the front lines but can reach say Minsk. Since Minsk is a 4 it sticks there - very limited combat units are accessing it. When you release it, this batch of freight is not competing with the railyards in the Reich, it takes its 'trains' from the railyards around Minsk - and they have shorter journeys to the front so can overcome larger SMP penalties.

Why does this matter?

Well its all out of sight, but the more you know how to trigger the system to behave with very simple tools (on both the supply and demand side) the better your logistics will be.

And never forget, the system assumes SNAFU, so don't fuss at the occasional oddity. Your dispatcher got lost, couldn't read the writing, was having a bad day, got shot by the partisans ...



I really appreciate all the answers.
You described this flow in some other posts. And i remember it.
And i still do not understand why having some depots at 4 instead of a 3 makes such a difference.
In my opinion if front depots are at 4 and if freight is out of SMP it will be stored in a closest depot (in my example it will be 3). And in the next turn it will be sent to a #4.

So what is the reason to keep some depots in the back at 4 and let them accumulate freight and only then releasing it, if having them at 3 for all turns should work the same?




loki100 -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/16/2021 5:46:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb
...
I really appreciate all the answers.
You described this flow in some other posts. And i remember it.
And i still do not understand why having some depots at 4 instead of a 3 makes such a difference.
In my opinion if front depots are at 4 and if freight is out of SMP it will be stored in a closest depot (in my example it will be 3). And in the next turn it will be sent to a #4.

So what is the reason to keep some depots in the back at 4 and let them accumulate freight and only then releasing it, if having them at 3 for all turns should work the same?


basically the 3s will do that role but with 2 small problems (that add up). First the freight doesn't stick so you don't get a controlled build up (usually the freight stays one turn and completes its move the next), second you have lots of 3s (most likely) so the freight has no clear rule to say 'come here - not there'.

Now this maynot matter in some situations. You are living hand to mouth, you may as well shovel everything directly into the front line - this certainly is true for the axis side say T10-18.

Where the Minsk as 4 shines is its a clear signal so the freight does go there, more will go to a front line pri 4 but it will pick up a fair chunk each turn. So you start to concentrate these bits of freight that can't get where they are really needed. You then choose when to release.

I've a MP game into April 43, I'm on the defensive so I just keep an eye on my front line depots, if they generally look like they are running down, I simply let one or two of these major depots empty. Earlier if I had made gains and had a lot of new depots, that was another good time to commit the reserve freight. Finally, and this may be useful in 1941, you can release the freight just before attacking again. Let the freight flow one turn, put the supply demand of the HQs up, and the next turn your front line forces are nice and plump.

So at worst it never really hurts you, at best it gives you a lot of agency and a tool to really make the supply system mirror your operational plans.

edit - the other real advantage of this trick is it looks like a super depot, acts like a super depot and all that time your FBD is off repairing rail lines. Going back to the SMP pt above secondary rail lines allow the system to use them for freight transfers when the primary line is congested. This means less SMP for a volume of freight ... which means (taking what I said about a fixed cap of SMP) ... MORE freight coming into the depot system




Stamb -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/16/2021 5:57:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

...

basically the 3s will do that role but with 2 small problems (that add up). First the freight doesn't stick so you don't get a controlled build up (usually the freight stays one turn and completes its move the next), second you have lots of 3s (most likely) so the freight has no clear rule to say 'come here - not there'.


how all of this freight that was stored somewhere in the back can get to a front if during all of the previous turns there was not enough trains or rail capacity (but probably trains as rails usage is around 5.5k for double lines) to get that same freight to a front. This is what bothers me.

and in case of my expected setup which is the following:

....... 0 1 2 3 3 4
NSS..0 1 2 3 3 4
....... 0 1 2 3 3 4


I expect some freight to get to a 3 which are placed all over the map, as you told. And its fine, as in the next turn that freight will be forwarded to a 4. Which is where we want the freight to go.




loki100 -> RE: Suggestions for manually creating depot routes (12/16/2021 6:03:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

...

basically the 3s will do that role but with 2 small problems (that add up). First the freight doesn't stick so you don't get a controlled build up (usually the freight stays one turn and completes its move the next), second you have lots of 3s (most likely) so the freight has no clear rule to say 'come here - not there'.


how all of this freight that was stored somewhere in the back can get to a front if during all of the previous turns there was not enough trains or rail capacity (but probably trains as rails usage is around 5.5k for double lines) to get that same freight to a front. This is what bothers me.

and in case of my expected setup which is the following:

0 1 2 3 3 4
NSS 0 1 2 3 3 4
0 1 2 3 3 4


I expect some freight to get to a 3 which are placed all over the map, as you told. And its fine, as in the next turn that freight will be forwarded to a 4. Which is where we want the freight to go.



Because of how freight moves.

Starts in the NSS, uses the rail capacity available in the Reich (lets simplify), goes as far East as it can and detrains - its 'train' returns to the Reich for next turn

Its now in a depot, if its not claimed by a combat unit (using trucks) then it uses the LOCAL railyards to entrain and move again.

So two huge advantages - its not now taking trains from the Reich and it has less distance to actually travel so doesn't need so much rail capacity to overcome any SMP penalties

The other bit is situational. There are times when yes, you want everything getting used now at the front. There are times when a reserve under your control is far better. You don't ideally put your entire army into the front line unless you have absolutely no choice - you try to keep a reserve?





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