Hold at all costs as officer card (Full Version)

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Jagger2002 -> Hold at all costs as officer card (12/14/2021 3:01:38 AM)

I am wondering if "hold at all costs" card should be an officer card? Possible also the stubborn defense?

Playing against the AI, I don't really see a problem with it. However I think both defenses could be too useful in PBEM. It is important for the Germans to stay out of the open when faced by American aircraft and artillery. Attacks need to be successful to get out of the open. Using hold at all costs and probably stubborn defense both have excellent probabilities of preventing Germans from pushing Americans out of covered positions and leaving Germans stuck in the open. I could see using it often if I have air and massed artillery ready to then hit the Germans stuck in the open.

And historically, telling a unit to "hold at all costs" is a very difficult decision which can result in a formation destroyed. Requiring an officer card would force the player to consider carefully when to use the option. Also if the command were made an officer card, I think it should be a fairly expensive card considering the consequences.

Any thoughts?



Rosseau -> RE: Hold at all costs as officer card (12/14/2021 3:26:02 AM)

I do not have as many hours in-game as you have - in fact, have always been wary about the potentially adverse affects of "hold at all costs," so have never actually used it. But it does sound like you are onto something! Let's see what Vic and the other experts here think.

Best wishes!




Jagger2002 -> RE: Hold at all costs as officer card (12/14/2021 4:03:45 AM)

I remember reading McDonnald's book Company Commander. The "hold at all cost" order was actually given during the Battle of the Bulge at very points and in his case, he took it seriously.

Currently, I have been playing the St Vith scenario which I think is excellent. There are a lot of good US defensive positions-chokepoints which are hard to bypass. I could see using Hold at all Cost or Stubborn defense and holding them for several turns. Not only would the Germans get smashed with artillery but it would take several turns to get through those positions. They can't afford losing that many turns due to having to wipe a large unit out-not to mention the heavy losses to artillery. In addition, the regular defense works fairly well. There are times when the Germans still end up stuck in the open even against regular defense.

The opposite side of the argument, is can the US afford to lose complete units intentionally. So how often would they use it. But then, the player can still pull the unit out before it is wiped out if it survives several turns. Personally I would use it in chokepoints if the situation allowed me to use it.



Stelteck -> RE: Hold at all costs as officer card (12/14/2021 7:16:11 AM)

There is a retreat parameter in unit configuration. You can configure any unit to fight to the bitter end (and in this case will only retreat if routed&panicked). It is not enough ?



carll11 -> RE: Hold at all costs as officer card (12/14/2021 12:20:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagger2002

I remember reading McDonnald's book Company Commander. The "hold at all cost" order was actually given during the Battle of the Bulge at very points and in his case, he took it seriously.

Currently, I have been playing the St Vith scenario which I think is excellent. There are a lot of good US defensive positions-chokepoints which are hard to bypass. I could see using Hold at all Cost or Stubborn defense and holding them for several turns. Not only would the Germans get smashed with artillery but it would take several turns to get through those positions. They can't afford losing that many turns due to having to wipe a large unit out-not to mention the heavy losses to artillery. In addition, the regular defense works fairly well. There are times when the Germans still end up stuck in the open even against regular defense.

The opposite side of the argument, is can the US afford to lose complete units intentionally. So how often would they use it. But then, the player can still pull the unit out before it is wiped out if it survives several turns. Personally I would use it in chokepoints if the situation allowed me to use it.



I have zero experience with the cards so far in this new game system, and I am obviously way off base here thinking that it would be same as say, Case Blue.
Where in they cost a lot and they disappear after its being used and has to be 'earned back' over several turns.




Jagger2002 -> RE: Hold at all costs as officer card (12/14/2021 3:38:45 PM)

quote:

There is a retreat parameter in unit configuration. You can configure any unit to fight to the bitter end (and in this case will only retreat if routed&panicked). It is not enough ?


My concern is there are no limits to the use of "Hold at all Cost" and the command may be too useful and effective.



Oberst_Klink -> RE: Hold at all costs as officer card (12/14/2021 3:41:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagger2002

quote:

There is a retreat parameter in unit configuration. You can configure any unit to fight to the bitter end (and in this case will only retreat if routed&panicked). It is not enough ?


My concern is there are no limits to the use of "Hold at all Cost" and too effective.

I've never tried it out. I should perhaps in my PBEM against Audie; my US defenders are being mauled.

Klink, Oberst



Jagger2002 -> RE: Hold at all costs as officer card (12/14/2021 3:44:36 PM)

quote:

I have zero experience with the cards so far in this new game system, and I am obviously way off base here thinking that it would be same as say, Case Blue.
Where in they cost a lot and they disappear after its being used and has to be 'earned back' over several turns.


The Ardennes system is basically the same as Case Blue. Army, Corps and Divisional officers have a variety of officer decision cards of varying costs which improve the performance of their troops. Card costs and accumulation of officer command points limit the use of those officer command cards. They are very useful cards but due to limitations on their use, the player has to carefully consider when it is best to use the cards. A nice feature to reflect command influence on operations.



Jagger2002 -> RE: Hold at all costs as officer card (12/14/2021 4:00:39 PM)

quote:

I've never tried it out. I should perhaps in my PBEM against Audie; my US defenders are being mauled.


IMO, it is ideal for choke points and producing delay. And also good for anytime that you want to ensure the attacker will remain in the open after combat. Basically max exposed to effective artillery and air attack. Although bear in mind, my play is entirely against the AI at this point and I am rarely using the command. But while playing, I can see certain positions and circumstances in which hold at all costs or stubborn defense would create a major obstacle to the Germans. Perhaps in PBEM play, hold at all costs might be a necessary tactic to balance out the power of the offensive. I still haven't done a PBEM to find out the impact of the tactic on game balance.




carll11 -> RE: Hold at all costs as officer card (12/14/2021 5:06:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagger2002

quote:

I have zero experience with the cards so far in this new game system, and I am obviously way off base here thinking that it would be same as say, Case Blue.
Where in they cost a lot and they disappear after its being used and has to be 'earned back' over several turns.


The Ardennes system is basically the same as Case Blue. Army, Corps and Divisional officers have a variety of officer decision cards of varying costs which improve the performance of their troops. Card costs and accumulation of officer command points limit the use of those officer command cards. They are very useful cards but due to limitations on their use, the player has to carefully consider when it is best to use the cards. A nice feature to reflect command influence on operations.



thx J!



warnevada -> RE: Hold at all costs as officer card (12/19/2021 8:35:56 PM)

That option is already available in the form of the retreat level parameter on each unit. The default is 50% which means the unit will retreat when 50% of the elements in the unit, by strength have gotten either KILL or RETREAT results. It can be set to 100% which would mean the unit would not retreat until all elements in the unit have been either killed or got RETREAT results. If you want a unit to just serve as a delaying force without getting seriously hurt then set it to 25%.



Jagger2002 -> RE: Hold at all costs as officer card (12/19/2021 11:10:08 PM)

quote:

That option is already available in the form of the retreat level parameter on each unit. The default is 50% which means the unit will retreat when 50% of the elements in the unit, by strength have gotten either KILL or RETREAT results. It can be set to 100% which would mean the unit would not retreat until all elements in the unit have been either killed or got RETREAT results. If you want a unit to just serve as a delaying force without getting seriously hurt then set it to 25%.


My suggestion was to remove the Defend at all Costs option from the retreat level parameter and instead require playing an officer card to allow its use.



carll11 -> RE: Hold at all costs as officer card (12/20/2021 2:58:56 PM)

I think,that many think, that issuing such an order is something that happens in 'battle' or given tactical situations all the time.......let me share with you, from hard earned experience, thats TV/Movie horse-hockey.

Horatio at the Bridge, the Gates of Fire, that platoon of AA guns at Stavelot, those are the Exceptions, thats why they are famous ( aside from that we now know it was shy german tankers who pulled back and didn't really press the 825th. anyway).

The fanatical rearguard troops in DC Ardennes are, well, a bit much to take. Even if given a 'stand and die' order I'd say theres a 50 50 chance from the git go the men say, Fug off, and even if it gets past that stage, when the battle heats up ( if they stayed) theres another 50 50 chance theres a bug out.






Jagger2002 -> RE: Hold at all costs as officer card (12/20/2021 6:50:50 PM)

quote:

The fanatical rearguard troops in DC Ardennes are, well, a bit much to take. Even if given a 'stand and die' order I'd say theres a 50 50 chance from the git go the men say, Fug off, and even if it gates past that stage, when the battle heats up ( if they stayed) theres another 50 50 chance theres a bug out.


I agree entirely. Easy to give the order, hard to enforce.



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