Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (Full Version)

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OldCrowBalthazor -> Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/17/2021 1:44:31 AM)

This pertains to Allied planning of possible preemptive moves by occupying Soviet ports and other strategic points and supply issues and rules after Soviet surrender. I understand as a non-cooperative ally of the USA, UK, etal, that supply is bad if these units are on Soviet territory while the USSR is still in the war.

The question I am asking is what happens to supply on surrendered Soviet territory(s) after the Axis defeats them. I understand also that the Axis (probably German) side can decide to divide up the USSR with Japan or keep it all to themselves.

Still..if any non-Soviet units remain in Soviet territory after she surrenders..does their supply status change as occupying German (and or Japanese) resources or remain as 'liberated' Soviet territory, and diminished supply since its in a non-cooperative space.
Hope all the above stream of consciousness points and questions are clear..[:D]



SittingDuck -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/17/2021 5:05:31 AM)

I would imagine the former (occupied German territory).

I don't believe it goes down as 'liberated Soviet territory', because either occupation event actually annexes the territory to the Axis power(s). USSR at that time has neither any land hexes or a capital. As in, finished.



BillRunacre -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/17/2021 8:31:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SittingDuck

I would imagine the former (occupied German territory).

I don't believe it goes down as 'liberated Soviet territory', because either occupation event actually annexes the territory to the Axis power(s). USSR at that time has neither any land hexes or a capital. As in, finished.


That isn't true any more, as if the USSR is split only the eastern section is no longer Soviet, the German half remains part of the USSR, albeit occupied.




BillRunacre -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/17/2021 8:48:49 AM)

In terms of Allied supply, e.g. if British units are in the USSR, they will receive supply of 3 from urban resources and 5 from liberated ports.

The latter is actually more than before the USSR surrenders, indicating that the Allies now have control of the port and are better able to unload and organise things without interference from the Soviet authorities.



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/17/2021 8:46:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre


That isn't true any more, as if the USSR is split only the eastern section is no longer Soviet, the German half remains part of the USSR, albeit occupied.-Bill Runacre


Thanks Bill for your answers but now the above statement leads me to another question. [:)]

Lets say hypothetically: the Soviets surrender to Germany. Germany awards the eastern portion of the USSR to Japan. Japan surrenders later on. What would be the status of these territories east of the Yenisei River-(Japanese controlled Siberia)? Will it become independent, belong to the victorious Major that forced the surrender of Japan, or something else entirely?

Just curious as I am making contingency plans in an on going MP match that is getting real interesting with possible geopolitical results foreseen and unforeseen by both sides. 'The Undiscovered Country' as it were! [:D]



BillRunacre -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/17/2021 9:04:51 PM)

As the territory will belong to Japan, control would then be transferred to the victorious Major, which could lead to some interesting possibilities...



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/17/2021 9:10:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

As the territory will belong to Japan, control would then be transferred to the victorious Major, which could lead to some interesting possibilities...

Wow, thanks Bill for the fast reply! Indeed....very interesting possibilities.
Ok..'Operation Yenisei' goes from the drawing board to the operational planning staff. [:D]



SittingDuck -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/17/2021 9:20:30 PM)

US/England: "Let's just give the territory back to USSR. Let's throw in Ukraine as well"

oops did I say that?




SittingDuck -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/17/2021 9:21:39 PM)

Anyhow, thx for pointing that out, Bill. I would guess that differentiation in handling territory is so that USSR can be liberated in the west, if that would ever actually come about?



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/18/2021 5:30:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SittingDuck

US/England: "Let's just give the territory back to USSR. Let's throw in Ukraine as well"

oops did I say that?



Yes you did...and I know what your referring to here. [;)]



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/18/2021 5:40:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre


quote:

ORIGINAL: SittingDuck

I would imagine the former (occupied German territory).

I don't believe it goes down as 'liberated Soviet territory', because either occupation event actually annexes the territory to the Axis power(s). USSR at that time has neither any land hexes or a capital. As in, finished.


That isn't true any more, as if the USSR is split only the eastern section is no longer Soviet, the German half remains part of the USSR, albeit occupied.



Ok..another question. [:)]
If the Soviets surrender..and Germany decides to KEEP the whole shabaam...what is the status of the Eastern Partition exactly if it isn't considered 'no longer Soviet' and the Western Partition remains 'Occupied USSR'?
Additionally..if the Germans do decide NOT to award the Eastern Partition to Japan...what would happen to any Allied (non-Soviet) units that were there. Would they disappear like what happens with if Vichy is created. E.G any Allied units within that newly formed country are interned-disappear.

Thanks in advance for any illumination on this potential situation.

[image]local://upfiles/72627/C81272272A2A41B0AC53F24CB963A594.jpg[/image]



SittingDuck -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/18/2021 1:53:53 PM)

So I am going to guess that all of USSR becomes German-occupied territory (none is annexed). Which is done so that USSR can be liberated?

I will check through the files now.

EDIT: OK, decision 616 only has repercussions (triggers land transfer scripts) IF Germany says yes (that is, 616[1]). There is no other scripting for 616[0].

Based on that, I think if Germany says "NEIIIIIIIIIN!", then USSR in total just is German occupied (conquered country, left to be liberated - but no one will in game, I suppose).



SittingDuck -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/18/2021 2:23:22 PM)

Total confusion.

1) script file SURRENDER_1.txt has decision 616[1] granting the land hexes to both Germany and Japan in the case of a split. So according to the GAME MANUAL (explaining Surrender_1.txt scripting):

"This event causes a country’s territory to be transferred to another country
when the country losing the territory surrenders.
The transfer of territory may be to a newly created country with a
new Capital, or to the conquering country. This is different than a normal
surrender where the conquering country merely occupies the conquered
territory, which can potentially be liberated at a later date. This event
makes the territory an inherent part of the country that receives it"

Therein, I believe, lies the definition problem. Bill above - if I understand correctly - states that "if the USSR is split only the eastern section is no longer Soviet,"

And yet this file would indicate - per definition - that each half becomes an 'inherent' part of either Germany or Japan. But it seems to only give occupation status to each country, because:



2) Territory.txt script file ALSO has the eastern portion of USSR going to Japan.

Per the GAME MANUAL, the definition of entries in Territory.txt is:

"This event causes territory to be transferred from one country to another
when triggered, and it can also be used to have new states appear on the map"


Somewhere here, and I think in the GAME MANUAL, there is a loose definition of things. The word 'inherent' is used above, and I understand that to mean 'core', but apparently that is not so, because only if a country receives land via the ANNEXATION.txt file does it become core (in the sense that everything is folded in for supply purposes and partisans cannot generate).

Even my explanation will seem confusing, and I think that underscores how ambiguous this all is, really. I tend to think the definitions in the GAME MANUAL probably need to be reconsidered.

(side point, for mechanics purposes: even though Germany makes the decision, all the scripts in any file have USSR giving the land to either Germany and/or Japan - just thought I'd note that is how it works)



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/18/2021 8:44:54 PM)

Thanks SittingDuck for trying to parse out the implications of a YES or NO to DEC 616. I am still a bit confused though. Atm..in the match I am in..I am not even sure the Soviets will fall, BUT, they are in a tough position, hence why I am asking these questions about possible non-Soviet units already 'In Country' or are heading there, especially to ports like Vladivostok or key towns like Chita and Irkutsk. I don't want to give spoilers on this because this match is being featured on YT.

Unless I can get more clarification from Bill or Hubert..I'm going to assume that whether the Axis player says NO to DEC 616...that no NEW country is formed in 'B' (Eastern USSR). Thereby, I SHOULDN'T lose any Allied units that maybe placed there if the USSR surrenders.

[image]local://upfiles/72627/9F35960877574CA490F97AD72C3920E2.jpg[/image]



SittingDuck -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/19/2021 1:47:04 AM)

I can confirm there is no new USSR-Lite that is created (in the eastern half) if Germany says NO DIVISION. Nor is there a 'Greater Japan'. I've checked all the files. I've done it both by looking entirely through them (territory.txt, surrender_1.txt, and annexation.txt), but also via a 'search' that you can do, too: type in 616[0] in the Events folder search bar (in the Event folder's menu bar search) and you'll see it finds nothing, whereas 616[1] will pull up two files.

The options are only:

1) USSR (full)
2) USSR defeated (Germany holds it all)
3) USSR defeated (Germany holds western half, Japan annexes eastern half)



In the case of #2 or #3, any Allied units there are going to have big supply issues (of course). Any hexes occupied by Allied forces will show as 'Allied occupied' (although 'belonging' to Japan, in the case of #3).



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/19/2021 2:31:05 AM)

Thank you very much, SittingDuck! [&o]

Ok..I can proceed with Ops Yenesei. I don't want Germans or any other of their lap dogs mucking about while I finish dismantling Japan and harassing newly liberated Manchuria.

[sm=00000622.gif]



Pavia -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/19/2021 7:24:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Thank you very much, SittingDuck! [&o]

Ok..I can proceed with Ops Yenesei. I don't want Germans or any other of their lap dogs mucking about while I finish dismantling Japan and harassing newly liberated Manchuria.

[sm=00000622.gif]



I don't know about me, I don't know about me. The OSS is looking for "information" using "dirty tactics" of spies. My intelligence agents will have to respond. Hehehehe.

PS: I'm really getting a bit freaky.
PS II: By the way, looking at the photo of Tuco, Eli Wallach is in the Sad Hill cemetery for the final scene. Well, I have been in it, because it continues to exist thanks to the work of an association that tries to recover it. At the time, when the film was shot, it was made in the province of Burgos (Spain), with the help of the Army, and it has begun to recover since 2014. I think that you can even sponsor a grave.



BillRunacre -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/19/2021 1:04:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SittingDuck

I can confirm there is no new USSR-Lite that is created (in the eastern half) if Germany says NO DIVISION. Nor is there a 'Greater Japan'. I've checked all the files. I've done it both by looking entirely through them (territory.txt, surrender_1.txt, and annexation.txt), but also via a 'search' that you can do, too: type in 616[0] in the Events folder search bar (in the Event folder's menu bar search) and you'll see it finds nothing, whereas 616[1] will pull up two files.

The options are only:

1) USSR (full)
2) USSR defeated (Germany holds it all)
3) USSR defeated (Germany holds western half, Japan annexes eastern half)



In the case of #2 or #3, any Allied units there are going to have big supply issues (of course). Any hexes occupied by Allied forces will show as 'Allied occupied' (although 'belonging' to Japan, in the case of #3).


Thanks SittingDuck, you're spot on!



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/19/2021 7:45:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavia

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Thank you very much, SittingDuck! [&o]

Ok..I can proceed with Ops Yenesei. I don't want Germans or any other of their lap dogs mucking about while I finish dismantling Japan and harassing newly liberated Manchuria.

[sm=00000622.gif]



I don't know about me, I don't know about me. The OSS is looking for "information" using "dirty tactics" of spies. My intelligence agents will have to respond. Hehehehe.

PS: I'm really getting a bit freaky.
PS II: By the way, looking at the photo of Tuco, Eli Wallach is in the Sad Hill cemetery for the final scene. Well, I have been in it, because it continues to exist thanks to the work of an association that tries to recover it. At the time, when the film was shot, it was made in the province of Burgos (Spain), with the help of the Army, and it has begun to recover since 2014. I think that you can even sponsor a grave.

Hah..I know about this place. Btw Pavia..it looks like we made Europe and Asia into a Sad Hill Cemetery too. All in good sport mind you.[sm=00000036.gif][sm=fighting0020.gif]

[image]local://upfiles/72627/59E340A036234E1DA2FC19D670B0EE76.jpg[/image]



Zeckke -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (12/20/2021 12:48:28 PM)

well, to surrender fast URSS its not about haow many units, its about morale, and morale URRS falls conquering Moskau, leningrad, stalingrad and gorky if you get this four citys at last URSS surreder quickkly



Pavia -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (1/22/2022 8:21:38 AM)

I put it in this thread so as not to multiply it unnecessarily (perhaps a general thread of doubts should be opened, which at least I haven't seen).

Once the USSR surrenders, are their partisan points still active or are they nullified?



BaggieMania -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (1/22/2022 8:51:02 AM)

If you split the Soviets with japan then i believe no, but if Germany takes all i think so if i remember right.



Pavia -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (1/22/2022 10:33:03 AM)

OK...



BillRunacre -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (1/23/2022 6:12:48 PM)

Only the territory given to Japan loses the ability to produce partisans if the USSR is split between the Axis. It used to be that all of the USSR lost the ability, but we changed that last year.



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (1/23/2022 9:44:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

Only the territory given to Japan loses the ability to produce partisans if the USSR is split between the Axis. It used to be that all of the USSR lost the ability, but we changed that last year.

This was a great change. Especially knowing the nature of the brutal policies in the occupation zones of the USSR historically.



Jackmck -> RE: Post Soviet Surrender and Allied Supply Questions (1/25/2022 10:34:53 AM)

So in an ongoing game, I positioned a few chinese units in central asia in order to cut the supply line across the USSR so that Germany couldn't operate units all the way to Siberia after a Russian surrender. I realized that those units might be lost if the Axis player decided to divide the USSR. In this case, the Axis player was wise not to because Japan's survival was in question.

The cities which were occupied by the Chinese started at a supply level of three immediately after USSR surrender, but slowly (1/turn) increased to five and remained at five. A Chinese HQ on a former USSR city is able to boost supply of nearby units over 5, and I imagine that I could link HQ's back to China for higher supply.



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