RE: Soviet T6 (Full Version)

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K62 -> RE: Soviet T6 (1/16/2022 6:29:05 PM)

The Cherkassy - Kirovograd area stays quiet after last turn's Soviet counter-attack. At Odessa three naval interdiction directives are set up for the VVS, trying to break the blockade from three different directions. Only one of them succeeds but it runs into this bug so Odessa and Ochakov remain isolated. I evacuate the weakest divisions from both places, they suffer around 25% casualties on the open sea but it's better to have the trucks sunk than captured by the Germans.

In the Nikolaev area the German attempt another loose pocket but this time there are ample Soviet forces in the backfield and good leadership. Rokossovsky decides to one-up Malinovsky's success from last turn and manages to rout no less than three Panzer regiments and one motorized division, with the loss of most of their trucks.

[image]local://upfiles/6726/B0FC4C49D0C14FAF9EBBCCAFABD4A3EC.jpg[/image]



K62 -> RE: Soviet T6 (1/16/2022 6:31:30 PM)

Here's the largest among Rokossovsky's battles. VVS ground support is again heavily committed as the German fighters seem to be mostly busy in the Baltic and Black Sea areas.

[image]local://upfiles/6726/47EDFF73F5664FE98AAF59D0F4BBDB77.jpg[/image]



tyronec -> T07 (1/16/2022 7:35:14 PM)

T07.
AGN. Push up to the coast to isolate Tallinn. Unfortunately my Naval interdiction doesn’t execute properly, some of the aircraft wouldn’t fly but I don’t understand why. Failed attack on Pskov.

PG4. The Soviets did some counter attacks last turn using a lot of aircraft for GS. I had no fighters in place, all the Luftwaffe are trying to protect my Naval Patrols, however lots of AA SUs manage to shoot down some bombers. Seal off the pocket from last turn and pocket another stack to the North.

PG3. Just a slow advance and pushing down towards Kiev. Soviets are leaving lots of random units around which slows things down but costs them some easy routs. I could probably have sealed off the marshes this turn if I had put maximum effort into it, probably a mistake not to.

11th Army. Clearing up the pocket on the border.

PG2. The Kiev pocket held and I did my attacks rather poorly with too many defeats trying to wipe it out. Anyway, all hexes except Kiev taken even if I did make a mess of it. Should probably have pushed North to link up with PG3 but instead sent the Panzers East to grab some more map.

PG1. My forces across the ford get chased away. The ford now has the Soviet navy on it which cannot be shifted. Naval Interdiction succeeded so Ochakov & Odessa isolated. My attacks on Odessa fail and I also fail to pocket Nikolaev but at least Ochakov is taken. Heavy air losses AGAIN. Not a good turn for me down here.

I spent about 50% of my time for this move on the air war. It is not going well, have made a few mistakes with my AD set up clearly K62 is outplaying me in that area.
On T2 I neglected to have air cover over Riga and he was able to block naval supply.
He is getting free GS that I have not countered properly.
Am getting my fighters shot to bits around Odessa, maybe because he is using the altitude settings better… For me manually setting altitudes is out of place in a strategic game like this though clearly some players like that amount of detail - but does it make sense to be specifying what altitude your aircraft are going to be flying at for the week, shouldn’t that be a tactical decision from sortie to sortie ???

[image]local://upfiles/52296/0A9020DD1F5D49E7B4F8E2080998043E.jpg[/image]



K62 -> Soviet T7 (1/16/2022 11:17:08 PM)

In the Tallinn area nothing much is happening, sitting tight in the city fort and trying to contest naval interdiction.

Pskov also seems pretty stable. Shortening the lines a little and deploying a couple more fortified zones to free up forces that can be transferred to the Vyazma area.

[image]local://upfiles/6726/DA475BB98B4A443B908C5AF8F4AF985E.jpg[/image]



K62 -> RE: Soviet T7 (1/16/2022 11:29:51 PM)

At Vyazma the Germans don't get closer to the city but the close up the 9-division pocket and expand a bit north to encircle 2 more divisions in a smaller pocket. It appears this sector has a concentration of at least half the mobile forces in the German army. Almost all Soviet reserve deployments have been coming here for the past two turns as well as the strongest divisions from the Pskov area.

This turn I'm setting up a HLYA-inspired defense with three consecutive lines taking advantage of terrain. The more vulnerable section north of the city has a fourth line with some of the best tank divisions in the Red Army. A few cavalry divisions are pushed forward on the flanks to help impede German supply flow. I expect German infantry will be mostly busy with the pockets next turn and the mobile forces will at the very least take some losses breaking through the deep defense.

[image]local://upfiles/6726/A665C8B5A2BB4F72BE0487013A49B99E.jpg[/image]



K62 -> RE: Soviet T7 (1/16/2022 11:36:41 PM)

In the Kiev-Gomel area half of the Kiev pocket is reduced but manages to tie up substantial German forces in the process. The mobile forces in the Gomel area spring forward and plunge all the way to capturing the Chernigov depot. With a narrow corridor remaining, the choice needs to be made whether a couple of decent divisions should attempt escaping eastward or counter-attack the narrow Chernigov corridor. Counter-attack seems more promising and I manage to push back LAH into isolation along with Das Reich and a Panzer division. Air support plays a crucial role in this combat.

[image]local://upfiles/6726/DED2ABD7A492454EA39F74092AC32185.jpg[/image]



K62 -> RE: Soviet T7 (1/16/2022 11:38:02 PM)

Here's Maslennikov taking on Hitler's finest.

[image]local://upfiles/6726/EF04B3BB178742CBB28675520C0DE20A.jpg[/image]



K62 -> RE: Soviet T7 (1/16/2022 11:42:45 PM)

Generally the Soviet forces in pockets have been giving a good account of themselves in this game. Yes they will surrender but I find it worthwhile trying to optimize whatever combat power and movement they have left. Here's Vasily Glazunov earning a posthumous Hero of the Soviet Union title in the Kiev pocket with a remarkable sequence of 7 battles by an isolated division (he was killed after the last battle).

[image]local://upfiles/6726/EA241076D4F44523A3827DED4941D695.jpg[/image]



K62 -> RE: Soviet T7 (1/16/2022 11:48:48 PM)

In the Kirovograd area there were only cavalry divisions left on the Ingul line after last turn as many of the stronger units helped Rokossovsky's counter-attacks around Nikolaev. The Axis forces pushed through this screen easily but without securing any pockets or crossing the Dnepr east of Cherkassy. I'm reinforcing D-town and Zaporozhe and setting up a checkerboard defense on the approaches and north of the Dnepr, trying to make sure at least some of the troops have a chance to dig level 1 entrenchments.

[image]local://upfiles/6726/62E48C84A1514BA9847213D7BE085E4B.jpg[/image]



K62 -> RE: Soviet T7 (1/17/2022 12:00:55 AM)

In the Southern Front sector Ochakov and Odessa ended turn 6 isolated and they were both attacked, with the two-division Ochakov garrison surrendering quite easily. In Odessa Timoshenko had been locked up with his 12th Army since the T4 pocket, which was partly attributable to his failure to commit reserves against the German breakthrough. The garrison was a mishmash of escapees from the pocket with a high proportion of armored units. But somehow Timoshenko managed to whip it into shape and hold off three determined attacks this turn. During the Soviet air phase the VVS also manages to break the blockade and some badly beat up armored units are evacuated and replaced with infantry from the Kherson area, which is relatively quiet. Nikolaev is abandoned with a small garrison and a (hopefully) strong line is formed at Kherson using the swamps and major river.

[image]local://upfiles/6726/0FF617921BA7412881C61223AA9E45AC.jpg[/image]



K62 -> RE: Soviet T7 (1/17/2022 12:06:19 AM)

First battle of Odessa

[image]local://upfiles/6726/89B0960E94DB4A0BB2BCCE5C7A86573F.jpg[/image]



K62 -> RE: Soviet T7 (1/17/2022 12:06:47 AM)

Second battle of Odessa

[image]local://upfiles/6726/B0234840C1664E6384CF218BBC691D4E.jpg[/image]



K62 -> RE: Soviet T7 (1/17/2022 12:07:12 AM)

Third battle of Odessa

[image]local://upfiles/6726/B094827810F946EF998AC34B81F727FC.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Soviet T7 (1/17/2022 12:12:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: K62

In the Southern Front sector Ochakov and Odessa ended turn 6 isolated and they were both attacked, with the two-division Ochakov garrison surrendering quite easily. In Odessa Timoshenko had been locked up with his 12th Army since the T4 pocket, which was partly attributable to his failure to commit reserves against the German breakthrough. The garrison was a mishmash of escapees from the pocket with a high proportion of armored units. But somehow Timoshenko managed to whip it into shape and hold off three determined attacks this turn. During the Soviet air phase the VVS also manages to break the blockade and some badly beat up armored units are evacuated and replaced with infantry from the Kherson area, which is relatively quiet. Nikolaev is abandoned with a small garrison and a (hopefully) strong line is formed at Kherson using the swamps and major river.

[image]local://upfiles/6726/0FF617921BA7412881C61223AA9E45AC.jpg[/image]


I absolutely "love" what you have done in the South. Those PZ's have been through hell and back and should be in the 60 TOE area I bet. I like the defense of the lower Dnepr too. You are making the German pay for every inch on the coast, again I "love" it.



K62 -> RE: Soviet T7 (1/17/2022 1:19:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I absolutely "love" what you have done in the South. Those PZ's have been through hell and back and should be in the 60 TOE area I bet. I like the defense of the lower Dnepr too. You are making the German pay for every inch on the coast, again I "love" it.


Thank you. I really loved your VL maneuver in the Jubjub AAR (and tried hard to prevent something similar in this game).



M60A3TTS -> RE: T07 (1/17/2022 4:15:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec
Am getting my fighters shot to bits around Odessa, maybe because he is using the altitude settings better… For me manually setting altitudes is out of place in a strategic game like this though clearly some players like that amount of detail - but does it make sense to be specifying what altitude your aircraft are going to be flying at for the week, shouldn’t that be a tactical decision from sortie to sortie ???


The altitude settings seem to have some very significant limitations due to the fact that the air doctrine setting only applies the designated altitude to those planes sent on Escort during the actual combat air mission. For Patrol, the AI uses a series of pre-selected altitudes that the human player cannot manipulate. So if you get a case like the one below where the AI just selects all fighters for Patrol and none on Escort, in effect the altitude setting for GS becomes useless. I'd be curious to see if your battle results reflect this, or if you are just losing a number of inferior Rumanian planes and pilots.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/8oZCJoD.jpg[/image]



loki100 -> RE: T07 (1/17/2022 6:46:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
...

The altitude settings seem to have some very significant limitations due to the fact that the air doctrine setting only applies the designated altitude to those planes sent on Escort during the actual combat air mission. For Patrol, the AI uses a series of pre-selected altitudes that the human player cannot manipulate. ...



altitude settings for auto-intercepts key off the relevant AS settings for that air command (Pavel mentioned this some time back), think this is how its described in the manual.

From WiTW, its clear there are gaps between the 2 altitudes that eliminate practical interaction so its possible that some planes are staying out of the action if they are too far apart. No data on what these parameters are but it seemed to be at least >5k'



Stamb -> RE: Soviet T7 (1/17/2022 8:27:34 AM)

Axis allies are just a joke in this game. Having 45 morale against 50 morale Soviet division is not a huge gap. Add to this perfect ground/air conditions without any fortifications and almost 2x man advantage and get such a result...
1k dead, and who knows how many more disrupted. Unbelievable for me that developers do not see an issue here. And it is not a unique battle. It is reported by multiple players in multiple patches in multiples AARs.
Playing Soviets and targeting Axis allies is a almost a free road to a guard status.

[image]local://upfiles/82464/6A47FBD20D8946B891A4738D3865848C.png[/image]



tyronec -> RE: Soviet T7 (1/17/2022 9:55:30 AM)

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec
Am getting my fighters shot to bits around Odessa, maybe because he is using the altitude settings better… For me manually setting altitudes is out of place in a strategic game like this though clearly some players like that amount of detail - but does it make sense to be specifying what altitude your aircraft are going to be flying at for the week, shouldn’t that be a tactical decision from sortie to sortie ???


The altitude settings seem to have some very significant limitations due to the fact that the air doctrine setting only applies the designated altitude to those planes sent on Escort during the actual combat air mission. For Patrol, the AI uses a series of pre-selected altitudes that the human player cannot manipulate. So if you get a case like the one below where the AI just selects all fighters for Patrol and none on Escort, in effect the altitude setting for GS becomes useless. I'd be curious to see if your battle results reflect this, or if you are just losing a number of inferior Rumanian planes and pilots.


I have not been using any allied fighters in this game.
There were 4 air combats around Odessa where German fighters did poorly, maybe they were all a combination bad luck/altitude/best Soviet air groups - I don't know.
In more recent turns the A2A combats have been more normal.



tyronec -> RE: Soviet T7 (1/17/2022 10:06:02 AM)

T08.
AGN. Quiet, waiting to get Tallinn isolated.

PG4. Clear both pockets and make a small advance.

PG3. Just seal off what is left in the marshes, think the pocket should hold now.

PG2. Pushing on towards D’town.

PG1. Take Nikolaev. Infantry continue the advance East leaving a couple of Romanian divisions at Odessa. PG4 relocates northwards.

Air war. My Tallinn interdiction is beginning to work, if it continues to hold will get isolation next turn and can assault.
My interdiction around Odessa failed. Over the past few phases sometimes it has succeeded and sometimes it has failed, on one occasion because my bombers ran out of supplies and not enough flew. However on this turn everything was set up as intended - large numbers of bombers and Naval aircraft with mines and good supply, escorts in place and 3 air groups on AS to counter Soviet Interdiction. The Axis Interdiction went fine. The AS failed, it intercepted some of the 90 x 6 bomber Soviet sorties but 80+% of the Soviet bombers are getting through. So Odessa no longer isolated.

[image]local://upfiles/52296/894EC96531E84F25B8152B471CA5E601.jpg[/image]



tyronec -> The End. (1/17/2022 10:31:14 AM)

I conceded the game at this point.

Overall progress is OK and the Soviets have been taking heavy losses for their aggressive defense. I think the game is close apart from in the South.

The Odessa situation is a disaster. Axis have three possibilities from here:
1. Continue to assault Odessa without attaining Isolation; I am confident this will fail baring an exceptionally lucky combat result. In this game you cannot take a well garrisoned city fort without isolating it first.
2. Continue to attempt Isolation while leaving enough infantry behind to assault when the Isolation happens. I don't think this is going to happen, the Soviets have enough LBs to keep the Interdiction up until the weather turns. Maybe not enough for both Tallinn and Odessa but am pretty sure they have enough for one of them.
3. Leave a few units to screen Odessa and push on. This is probably the best option but really prospects are not good. It would be difficult to advance into the Crimea with the supply blockage at Odessa and I don't know if Axis could even get enough supplies forwards to attempt to Isolate Sevastapol. If PG4 shifts to join PG3 then the rail line to Stalino is going to be over burdened, they are probably better use with AGC. Axis need the supplies along the rail line to Nikolaev and to the ports, at least on the strategy that I adopted.

I could have asked my opponent to have a new house rule on his counter interdiction, but there is no bug here he is simply playing to the way the game is designed. I used small mission sorties on T1.
Playing out the game with a permanent Soviet garrison behind the front line just has no appeal. Well played to K62.



Stamb -> RE: The End. (1/17/2022 10:43:48 AM)

It is not enough to isolate 1 hex to the right from Odessa and setup AS there? In my game vs human I am able to isolate 1 port hex in Leningrad area to keep Leningrad isolated by using naval interdiction and AS.

There is a bloodbath in the air, but last turn Soviets lost around 1k planes if I recall correctly. Also heavy losses on the Axis side but It will wipe entire VSS if this continues.




KenchiSulla -> RE: Soviet T7 (1/17/2022 10:51:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec
The Axis Interdiction went fine. The AS failed, it intercepted some of the 90 x 6 bomber Soviet sorties but 80+% of the Soviet bombers are getting through. So Odessa no longer isolated.



I am not sure I like this game feature. In this case the soviet ability to interdict (in real life) would not affect the Axis ability to interdict Odessa. Odessa should still be isolated as the Luftwaffe is preventing or takings its tole on shipping. Only if the interdiction would come from Axis shipping it should have an effect...



KenchiSulla -> RE: The End. (1/17/2022 10:57:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

I conceded the game at this point.

Overall progress is OK and the Soviets have been taking heavy losses for their aggressive defense. I think the game is close apart from in the South.

The Odessa situation is a disaster. Axis have three possibilities from here:
1. Continue to assault Odessa without attaining Isolation; I am confident this will fail baring an exceptionally lucky combat result. In this game you cannot take a well garrisoned city fort without isolating it first.
2. Continue to attempt Isolation while leaving enough infantry behind to assault when the Isolation happens. I don't think this is going to happen, the Soviets have enough LBs to keep the Interdiction up until the weather turns. Maybe not enough for both Tallinn and Odessa but am pretty sure they have enough for one of them.
3. Leave a few units to screen Odessa and push on. This is probably the best option but really prospects are not good. It would be difficult to advance into the Crimea with the supply blockage at Odessa and I don't know if Axis could even get enough supplies forwards to attempt to Isolate Sevastapol. If PG4 shifts to join PG3 then the rail line to Stalino is going to be over burdened, they are probably better use with AGC. Axis need the supplies along the rail line to Nikolaev and to the ports, at least on the strategy that I adopted.


So historically the Rumanians and 11th Army never took Odessa. The Soviets gave it up to protect Sevastopol. You could either attempt to isolate it and assault it, assault it directly with a reinforced German Corps and attrit the garrison to death or push on towards the Crimea and push away the VVS....



Beethoven1 -> RE: The End. (1/17/2022 10:59:54 AM)

[8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|] [8|]

How absurd.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

The Odessa situation is a disaster.


It's almost as though it's historical for Odessa to hold out at least a bit, and if the game is supposed to be roughly historical, then it is almost as if that is what one would think should happen much more often (whereas in no other AAR I have seen has Germany been unable to take Odessa several months before it fell historically).

quote:

It would be difficult to advance into the Crimea with the supply blockage at Odessa.


It's almost as though historically, the Axis did not particularly advance into Crimea right away and didn't take Sevastopol until 1942.

In your defense though, you are unlucky that Odessa and Tallinn are city terrain rather than urban. If they were urban terrain, then you would take both easily.



Beethoven1 -> RE: Soviet T7 (1/17/2022 11:05:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenchiSulla


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec
The Axis Interdiction went fine. The AS failed, it intercepted some of the 90 x 6 bomber Soviet sorties but 80+% of the Soviet bombers are getting through. So Odessa no longer isolated.



I am not sure I like this game feature. In this case the soviet ability to interdict (in real life) would not affect the Axis ability to interdict Odessa.


+1. The way that naval interdiction works is pretty illogical in this respect. This is even more the case for Lake Ladoga. The thing that should counter enemy interdiction are your fighters, not your bombers. You do not shoot down enemy bombers and stop them from bombing your ships by bombing enemy ships or by bombing enemy bombers. In addition, usually only a single side will actually be using ships to try to get through supplies to their troops. In this case, the Axis has no need to ships supplies anywhere currently, so there should be no particular Axis ships off the coast of Odessa for the Soviets to bomb.

It may not be worth the programming time to change or redesign naval interdiction, given other priorities, but how it is doesn't make sense.



Stamb -> RE: Soviet T7 (1/17/2022 11:15:32 AM)

I think you have to think about naval interdiction also as a counter naval interdiction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minesweeping. Scroll down to "By aircraft" section.

P.S I am not an expert, just my 2 cents. Maybe it was not widely used.



Stamb -> RE: The End. (1/17/2022 11:27:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1
It's almost as though it's historical for Odessa to hold out at least a bit, and if the game is supposed to be roughly historical, then it is almost as if that is what one would think should happen much more often (whereas in no other AAR I have seen has Germany been unable to take Odessa several months before it fell historically).

Agree. But on the other side Soviet side does not suffer such losses as they did historically. Not even close. Even when Axis is driven by a top players. 3 mil losses until a winter, if Soviet is not retreating?
For example my opponent is retreating, no reason not to do so, and I was able to inflict probably less then 2 mil until turn 12. Which is basically the end of the '41 campaign (maybe 100k-200k will come when/if Leningrad falls)



Stamb -> RE: The End. (1/17/2022 11:31:16 AM)

IMHO, VP allocations should be revisited as well as industry should really matter! So Soviets have a choice - trade divisions for an industry or trade industry for a divisions. Now they get both. Unfortunately I don't think it will happen in wite 2. But it would be my number 1 request. I would even pay for this DLC.


tyronec and K62 thanks for the AAR and sorry for off top [sm=00000436.gif]



tyronec -> RE: The End. (1/17/2022 12:07:00 PM)

quote:

It is not enough to isolate 1 hex to the right from Odessa and setup AS there? In my game vs human I am able to isolate 1 port hex in Leningrad area to keep Leningrad isolated by using naval interdiction and AS.

Axis Naval Interdiction is working fine and Odessa would be isolated without the effects of the VVS. It is their Naval Patrol that is cancelling the Axis one out.
Axis AS is operating out of Ochakov, it intercepted some missions from East of Ochakov to West of Ochavov and up to Odessa - but not enough. Some details on it in this thread https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5128711

quote:

So historically the Rumanians and 11th Army never took Odessa. The Soviets gave it up to protect Sevastopol. You could either attempt to isolate it and assault it, assault it directly with a reinforced German Corps and attrit the garrison to death or push on towards the Crimea and push away the VVS....

True, historically Odessa held out against the Romanaians for a long time. I would argue that in the game, if it has a large garrison, it can hold out against massed German assault for as long as it is not isolated, which is against history. The garrison will not be attrited because the Soviets can bring in more troops AND they gain experience from every battle they win. Axis cannot push away the VVS until they take Sevastapol, which is not practicable without supplies and the normal source for those supplies is going to be the rail line to Nikolaev and naval supplies - both of which are problematic in this game.



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