Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (Full Version)

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actrade -> Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 12:52:19 PM)

I'm setting up a float plane base at Billiton and am a bit unsure on how the whole support ship base works. Do I need to dock these ships? Do they need to be disbanded or can they stay in a TF? I assume if they're homeport is set to the one I'm docked at and they don't have a new destination they'll stay, but if not I assume I need to check the remain on station button. What do I need to look at on the unit card to ensure I've got it set up as desired? Would some veteran be kind enough to give me a step by step on this? I've read the manual but these questions are unclear for me. Thanks!



WEXF -> RE: Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 2:18:49 PM)

I am certainly not an expert but I think the answers you are looking for are:
The ships that are providing the support do not need to be docked. As long as they are in the port they will provide the support. They can be docked or undocked as part of a TF or disbanded. If you set the homeport for ships as the hex you are in you do not need to have "remain on station". If you set a destination that is different than the home port the TF will go to that destination do what was ordered and then return. So if you want the support ship to stay put either disband it in the port or set both the destination and homeport as the port you are in.
WEXF



btd64 -> RE: Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 2:28:08 PM)

Ok, the basics. The ships need to be loaded with supplies and disbanded at the location. Make sure that the ship or ships have sufficient capacity for the number of float planes that you wish to use at the location....GP



actrade -> RE: Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 2:36:54 PM)

Thanks guys.



WEXF -> RE: Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 2:38:28 PM)

I understand the need for the supply for the support to be efficient. I have noticed that if you have a support ship like an AV disbanded in a port and then you place it in a TF the aviation support levels (the+ level) do not change. So doesn't that mean that the ships do not have to be disbanded?



Kull -> RE: Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 2:39:11 PM)

WEXF covered all the angles except one - a Docked TF is like cream to a kitten as far as the Japanese Air AI is concerned. Especially with an unCAP'd base like Billiton, as soon as the AI spots the TF you can count on getting a visit from Betty and the girls. Disband it in port and it should survive a lot longer (the AVP needs to have supply on board, as that will slowly be consumed by the floatplanes on Search missions).



dr.hal -> RE: Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 6:09:41 PM)

AVs are complex critters! I've tested their impact in my own game. They do NOT need to be disbanded to lend support to a base or their own aircraft. They can be in a task force at sea in the hex or dockside. They still lend support. They support two levels of A/C, their own which is the first number in the unit's "capacity" when clicked upon, and then a total number of seaplane or float planes they can support (inclusive of their own if onboard). In terms of ability to carry aircraft, in the capacity a number is given first followed by the "/" sign, where the second number represents the number of aircraft actually onboard the ship at the time. They support their own whether they carry supplies or not, however an AV can not support other float/seaplanes effectively if there are no supplies either onboard or at the base in the hex they are located at, as the number for supplies will go to yellow or red (warning or critical) if supplies are less than double (yellow number) or BELOW the minimum needed (red number). These two color coded supply levels adversely impact base aircraft performance but do NOT impact the ship's own aircraft if stationed onboard (as best as I can determine). I hope this is as clear as mud.



dr.hal -> RE: Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 6:22:33 PM)

One thing I never understood about the game's dynamics when it comes to AVs is why their "support" (max) number, a reflection of their mechanics, machine shops, etc., can NOT be used to support land based air units in a hex where the ship is located (either pierside, disbanded or just there). In other words the support doesn't "cross deck" to land aircraft, only to seaplane, float planes and amphibs. Most developer decisions make sense, however a aircraft mechanic is an aircraft mechanic (ok there are differences, in engines, etc., but heck!) with many land based mechanics servicing any and everything on the base (including sea planes). So I'm not sure why there is this restriction on an AV's ability to lend a hand to land based air in terms of support if needed (ok, I can see the need to be docked or disbanded, but still!). Has there ever seen an explanation of the rationale behind this restriction?



Kull -> RE: Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 9:04:24 PM)

As opposed to house boats for mechanics, think rather of AVs as floating workshops. The planes they support can pull up right alongside (no need for docks) and the planes or components there-of can be lifted on board with cranes. When the repair is done - or in-process - you can test things out without ever resorting to anything on land. By contrast, if the AV was going to repair a P-40E it would have to be trucked down to the shoreline, and without docks there'd be no way to get it onto the ship. Even if there were docks, that's still a lot of logistic effort expended just to move the plane around, especially since most airfields aren't poised right on the water's edge. And while that *might* be a one-off type solution in an emergency, it's not any way to run an airfield. As for the "explanation", I don't recall hearing one, but it was probably as simple as this: "That's not how AVs were used during the war".



dr.hal -> RE: Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 9:53:56 PM)

I read what you're writing Kull but I don't buy it at all. Skills and tool carry pretty easily. I'll admit it won't be as convenient, but if there's a will there was a way. To follow your logic, why then are land support units allowed to tend seaplanes? They're not on a runway, tools have to be brought down to the beach, etc., if the door swings one way, it should be allowed to swing another. Again, I just don't follow the logic of it all. I agree, it might be as simple as "it's not how it was done"! But there's lots of things that can be done and WERE done that were not in "rule books" prior to the war. But I'm not trying to put you or anyone on the spot, I was just wondering aloud if anyone knew WHY this was not part of the game design. Alfred might have an input here as he was given access to the game designers threads and historical records, but alas, he is not onboard at the moment. From where I sit, few of the design decisions, and thus game dynamics, can be challenged. This one is not something I can follow.



mind_messing -> RE: Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 10:11:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

One thing I never understood about the game's dynamics when it comes to AVs is why their "support" (max) number, a reflection of their mechanics, machine shops, etc., can NOT be used to support land based air units in a hex where the ship is located (either pierside, disbanded or just there). In other words the support doesn't "cross deck" to land aircraft, only to seaplane, float planes and amphibs. Most developer decisions make sense, however a aircraft mechanic is an aircraft mechanic (ok there are differences, in engines, etc., but heck!) with many land based mechanics servicing any and everything on the base (including sea planes). So I'm not sure why there is this restriction on an AV's ability to lend a hand to land based air in terms of support if needed (ok, I can see the need to be docked or disbanded, but still!). Has there ever seen an explanation of the rationale behind this restriction?


This makes an assumption that the (land-based) aircraft are based at a coastal airbase, which may not always be the case.

Also, exceptionally easy to exploit. If it was as you would suggest, then you'd have fleets of B-29 bombers ran off a handful of AV's, or the ability to arrive at a base hex, instantly begin air operations and immediately sail off again. It would completely remove the friction involved in planning and deploying appropriate aviation units.

I can imagine the howls of protest if the above mentioned scenario were possible, or if the IJ player was able to mount their air campaign in China from a fleet of AV's anchored at Hankow.



rogueusmc -> RE: Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 10:23:27 PM)

40 mile hex.



dr.hal -> RE: Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 10:27:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

One thing I never understood about the game's dynamics when it comes to AVs is why their "support" (max) number, a reflection of their mechanics, machine shops, etc., can NOT be used to support land based air units in a hex where the ship is located (either pierside, disbanded or just there). In other words the support doesn't "cross deck" to land aircraft, only to seaplane, float planes and amphibs. Most developer decisions make sense, however a aircraft mechanic is an aircraft mechanic (ok there are differences, in engines, etc., but heck!) with many land based mechanics servicing any and everything on the base (including sea planes). So I'm not sure why there is this restriction on an AV's ability to lend a hand to land based air in terms of support if needed (ok, I can see the need to be docked or disbanded, but still!). Has there ever seen an explanation of the rationale behind this restriction?


This makes an assumption that the (land-based) aircraft are based at a coastal airbase, which may not always be the case.

Also, exceptionally easy to exploit. If it was as you would suggest, then you'd have fleets of B-29 bombers ran off a handful of AV's, or the ability to arrive at a base hex, instantly begin air operations and immediately sail off again. It would completely remove the friction involved in planning and deploying appropriate aviation units.

I can imagine the howls of protest if the above mentioned scenario were possible, or if the IJ player was able to mount their air campaign in China from a fleet of AV's anchored at Hankow.

Well ANYTHING can be gamed if there are not safeguards. Right now, air units that have zero aircraft carrier training can land and take off from CVs without hardly ANY penalty at all (there's only a seemingly slight rise is operational losses) as long as their aircraft are "CV Capable"! Believe me, I've flown off and on aircraft carriers (as a passenger) a LOT bigger than were used in WW2 and I had to change my underwear, it was SCARY just to sit there!!! There could have been safeguards put into play to allow SOME support, such as a minimum number of land support units (or value) already inplay or the base be a certain size, have a certain harbor size, the ship docked or moored in said harbor, etc. (and obviously in a hex with ocean water access). And again the opposite of your logic is ignored, land based support which might be as much as 40 miles away from any water, can support water based aircraft. Again, I just don't see it.



Kull -> RE: Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 10:43:22 PM)

There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between float planes supported at fixed land installations and - the game mechanism you are advocating for - having to haul P-40s or B-17s out to floating workshops. The first was extremely common while the other never happened. And that ignores the fact that many floatplanes could be easily configured for land or water takeoffs, something which you couldn't do with land air units because they simply weren't designed that way. Also, continuing to associate AVs with mechanics is completely missing the point. They were floating workshops dedicated to floatplane support. No different in game terms than AS vessels that support submarines (but not PT boats) or any other specialized vessels with a narrowly focused "customer base" (AD, AGP, etc).



dr.hal -> RE: Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 10:58:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between float planes supported at fixed land installations and - the game mechanism you are advocating for - having to haul P-40s or B-17s out to floating workshops. The first was extremely common while the other never happened. And that ignores the fact that many floatplanes could be easily configured for land or water takeoffs, something which you couldn't do with land air units because they simply weren't designed that way. Also, continuing to associate AVs with mechanics is completely missing the point. They were floating workshops dedicated to floatplane support. No different in game terms than AS vessels that support submarines (but not PT boats) or any other specialized vessels with a narrowly focused "customer base" (AD, AGP, etc).


Kull, I'm not "advocating for" anything! Where do you extrapolate that from? I'm asking a question. Does anyone know the underlying logic that resulted in this dynamic? That's all. Clearly you don't have any inside knowledge (as you indicate) which is fine. I don't either. Someone else just might. So I'm asking for that input. I just don't see the logic of allowing support one way, but not the other. I'm not trying to annoy anyone, just trying to find logic where I don't see it.



mind_messing -> RE: Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 10:59:37 PM)

The logic is quite simple. AVs are tenders for floatplanes. They provide support for floatplanes.

Why would they provide support for land based craft?

You don't see an AR repairing tanks on land units, nor an AKE issuing out artillery shells to 155mm guns.



dr.hal -> RE: Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 11:34:02 PM)

Mind_messing, I'm not suggesting "they should add this" in anything I wrote. Those words do not appear in any of my input on this thread. I asked a question. I appreciate you editing your post above.



Kull -> RE: Support Ships as Float Plane Bases (12/21/2021 11:37:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Kull, I'm not "advocating for" anything! Where do you extrapolate that from? I'm asking a question.


Yes, you did ask the question, but you didn't leave it at that. Instead you made several strong statements in multiple posts to the effect that you could see no reason why AVs should not be allowed to support land air units. If that's not advocacy, its at least her close cousin! ;-) For example:

quote:

I just don't see the logic of allowing support one way, but not the other.


As I explained earlier, the logic is so obvious that it didn't require elucidation from the devs. AVs in WW2 supported floatplane units. Period. They did not support land air units.

In addition, there are MANY examples of land-based floatplane installations. The one at Pearl Harbor was attacked on December 7th. Likewise the base at Cavite, near Manila. Wake Island had land based fighters, but long before that it was one of several islands which serviced the trans-Pacific Pan Am Clipper floatplanes (one of which was destroyed in the initial Japanese air raid).

So a game mechanism in which floatplanes are supported by land units is ENTIRELY consistent with reality, whereas you will look long and hard (and fruitlessly) for examples of AVs doing the reverse.



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