As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (Full Version)

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therealevan -> As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/23/2021 5:40:22 PM)

I've mostly only played single-player playthroughs as the Axis, and each playthrough I notice how terrified I am of using my Panzer divisions for anything other than moving them from point A to point B to attempt to encircle the Soviets (at my level of play, I feel like I am only mediocre at being able to do this on a effective manner).

Am I correct in that as the Axis player:

1. You should NOT use your Panzers for tank on tank combat? A quick test in my early game, Panzer divisions take a large amount of tank losses if attacking into a soviet tank division.

2. It is better to use infantry divisions to take on soviet tank formations.

3. Panzer groups should only be used for enveloping formations but not engage in actual combat.

4. Motorized / mechanized units can be used for direct combat.


Is there any point in the game where #1 changes? I understand that later on in the war the methods of how the Wehrmacht handles anti-tank changed greatly as they opted to using their heavy tank battalions for handling anti-tank, but right now in 1941 using tanks for that seems Ludacris.



Stamb -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/23/2021 6:01:24 PM)


Yep you are correct in all points.

quote:

ORIGINAL: therealevan
Is there any point in the game where #1 changes? I understand that later on in the war the methods of how the Wehrmacht handles anti-tank changed greatly as they opted to using their heavy tank battalions for handling anti-tank, but right now in 1941 using tanks for that seems Ludacris.

Probably not as Soviets become stronger and stronger with each day. While you get less and less supply while moving east



Jango32 -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/23/2021 6:04:08 PM)

Essentially, yes. You can use Panzer divisions against weak or weak and damaged formations when attacking if you care at all about retaining AFVs.


Other than that, they're glorified hex flippers.



Stamb -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/23/2021 6:11:20 PM)

Also if you decide to make a hasty attack with a panzer/motorized and have escort in range for a bombers you can use air support, it might add a missing points to get to a 2:1 and retreat/route.



therealevan -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/23/2021 6:21:14 PM)

It would seem that eventually, panzer divisions can't really be used for much as the possibility of useful encirclements decreases - correct? Unless you're able to make an early victory (ie late 1941 or early 1942). If that's the case, what do players use panzers for 'late' game? 1943 and onwards?



GibsonPete -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/23/2021 6:24:18 PM)

Fear of using your Panzer forces is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to hitting your screen and quitting the game. The best use of your mobile forces is creating a Kessel Schlacht of soviet formations to isolate and then destroy with your infantry. Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view. If you use your Panzer divisions as shock troops, you will take losses that will be hard to replace. Infantry with or without pioneers, mixed flak, AT guns and/or Stugs; can deal with any isolated formations. Do not fear committing your Panzers when it is necessary. Examine your enemy and your path you must then decide. [sm=character0167.gif]



Stamb -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/23/2021 6:38:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: therealevan

It would seem that eventually, panzer divisions can't really be used for much as the possibility of useful encirclements decreases - correct? Unless you're able to make an early victory (ie late 1941 or early 1942). If that's the case, what do players use panzers for 'late' game? 1943 and onwards?

Personally i got only to a summer '42 vs AI and Moscow is encircled with a less than 3 mil Soviets on a Map. But i am playing no early end campaign. I have doubts that AI will be able to recover after it.

When it comes to multiplayer, from what i can see, most games end sooner that 43. In the autumn 41 front will become static and typically there will be no options for any encirclement because of a rain and mud.
If Axis survive first winter they try to prepare for the last offensive in the spring/summer '42. There you can use panzers to encircle Soviets.

Also do not try to refit panzers on a front as i tried in my game. It will not work. Or maybe with a super depots only.



Stamb -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/23/2021 6:40:39 PM)

Here is a nice AAR that goes into '43:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4992932

But loki is a supply master, do not try to repeat it at home ;) (just kidding about no repeat)



Stamb -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/23/2021 6:45:29 PM)

Also this is very important for a tanks:


[image]local://upfiles/82464/C950DA21592D4968A9DAF92FF26A4E01.jpg[/image]



king171717 -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/23/2021 7:12:54 PM)

Some times you need to use your panzer cuz the ID are too far behind and you have to either create another pocket(s) or advance the front which then next turn you can create another pocket(s) for you. But try to use them in combat as little as you can but still use them when necessary. In real life, the panzers did everything but eliminate pockets and by dec 5 1941 there werent basically no tanks left.



Stamb -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/23/2021 7:16:42 PM)

I would like to play in such a way, but there are 2 problems. CCP that are halved no matter what and logistic. In my PvP game i am basically static with some of my panzers because supply and infantry are not there



AlbertN -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/23/2021 7:47:27 PM)

Panzers are brittle - yes. Hard to replace, and produced in little amount.

The latter is known (Production model) and a data that is there as info. With the variable unknown of 'How many panzers were not produced due to strategic bombing'. - The latter is design judgement. (ie. Tome of WW2 Knowledge says that 1000 PanzerExample were produced. WITE2 has 20 PanzerExample Factories that produce for 60 turns before the ground element goes obsolete. Total 1200, it implies the designer accounted for 200 PanzerExample not to be produced due to factory damage). This is not relevant now but it could be late war.

Hard to replace is pertinent to the logistic model (and in relation to production).

Then we've the 'data' of the ground element itself (gun, armour, whatnot) and how it affects combat and I feel here the hammer falls.
Germans did not had good tanks in terms of guns and armour but had doctrine and skill, their crews were able to perform light maintenance to the tanks where Soviet crews knew only how to operate the tank.

So yes there is the diffused perception that the panzer are not the elite units or battering rams / heavy fighting units (despite most of the early stages of Barbarossa having been panzers and motorized divisions opening the path and infantries following up and mopping.).








loki100 -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/23/2021 10:04:23 PM)

there is a situational element here that is important.

For both sides the 1941 armoured formations are very variable, the Germans have the full strength Pzr III/IV + Pzr Gr Pzr divisions and the stuff running around in Czech or French tanks. The Soviets have formations built around T34/KV1 and stuff with BT7s and other junk.

Now get on the wrong side of that technological gap and the Germans will often win (morale/exp/leadership) but take heavy losses, get on the right side and the Germans will sweep aside pretty much anything.

So as the Axis player its worth keeping an eye on the notional TOE of your Pzrs, some formations ideally are there for exploitation and movement, others can deliver quite a direct punch and do it again.

But even your best formations are a one way trip to becoming weak - the dynamic is how fast and to what end. In the end, Hitler wasn't releasing replacements to the formations actually conducting the war.

German production lags demand really till about mid-43, so you are handling a very finite resource most of the time.

But there are times when using them as combat formations is the best use, just they are not there to break heavily defended lines turn after turn



therealevan -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/23/2021 11:02:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

there is a situational element here that is important.

So as the Axis player its worth keeping an eye on the notional TOE of your Pzrs, some formations ideally are there for exploitation and movement, others can deliver quite a direct punch and do it again.


But there are times when using them as combat formations is the best use, just they are not there to break heavily defended lines turn after turn


1. Agreed - there does seem to be situations where direct combat with a panzer division could be useful, but I suspect those instances are far rarer than one might think.

2. I have been trying to practice breakouts, where I have attached panzer division infantry or motorized either route or cause soviet hexes to retreat, alleviating zone of control, then have my panzers move forward. I think this is the standard use-case. However, my problem is multi-turn where once I make a break out, I struggle identifying the direction of movement for my panzers as pincers on the steppe can seem endless.

2a - building breakouts along roadways that are 'average', and then trying to identify roads the lead to cities or other strategic points seem to be an approach.
2b - they run out of fuel.



Rosencrantus -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/23/2021 11:14:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

there is a situational element here that is important.

For both sides the 1941 armoured formations are very variable, the Germans have the full strength Pzr III/IV + Pzr Gr Pzr divisions and the stuff running around in Czech or French tanks. The Soviets have formations built around T34/KV1 and stuff with BT7s and other junk.

Now get on the wrong side of that technological gap and the Germans will often win (morale/exp/leadership) but take heavy losses, get on the right side and the Germans will sweep aside pretty much anything.

So as the Axis player its worth keeping an eye on the notional TOE of your Pzrs, some formations ideally are there for exploitation and movement, others can deliver quite a direct punch and do it again.

But even your best formations are a one way trip to becoming weak - the dynamic is how fast and to what end. In the end, Hitler wasn't releasing replacements to the formations actually conducting the war.

German production lags demand really till about mid-43, so you are handling a very finite resource most of the time.

But there are times when using them as combat formations is the best use, just they are not there to break heavily defended lines turn after turn


+1 that is it. As you play more you'll begin to get a better grasp on when your tank divisions can be heavily committed to a combats or not.



MishaTX -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/24/2021 4:55:39 AM)

Look at your goal. If your ability to achieve it absolutely depends on using your Panzers for an attack, then do it. They have to pay the iron price too, and if it's the difference between, say, taking Riga on turn 1 or scooping up Leningrad or Rostov because the Soviet AI didn't think you could make it that far, do it.

Just think about this: "I'll lose 20-30 tanks on this. Is that worth what I'll get in return?" If you're sure that using them will achieve what you need and the reward is worth those tanks and you can't possibly do it without them. Well, it may require a trip to Refit, but it'll be worth it. Your general observations are spot on, though. Use them for attacks very sparingly, but don't be afraid to use them altogether. (Not to mention that your '41 Pzs are mostly useless against the Red Army anyways, as the Wehrmacht found out. "Heeresanklopfgerät", anyone? [:D]). Not much point in keeping them around for longer than you have to.

But you're right. They're not the mobile assault troops that some, including me, used to think that they were, those are the motorized formations.



therealevan -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/24/2021 5:01:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MishaTX

But you're right. They're not the mobile assault troops that some, including me, used to think that they were, those are the motorized formations.


It took me a while in WiTE1 and now re-learning in WiTE2 that they are delicate little flowers even in 1941. Depending on the situation, pz division against soviet infantry or mechanized / cavalry can inflict tank losses on the attacking pz division. As Jango32 said above, "they're glorified hex flippers" [sm=happy0005.gif]




MishaTX -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/24/2021 6:25:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: therealevan


quote:

ORIGINAL: MishaTX

But you're right. They're not the mobile assault troops that some, including me, used to think that they were, those are the motorized formations.


It took me a while in WiTE1 and now re-learning in WiTE2 that they are delicate little flowers especially in 1941. Depending on the situation, pz division against soviet infantry or mechanized / cavalry can inflict tank losses on the attacking pz division. As Jango32 said above, "they're glorified hex flippers" [sm=happy0005.gif]



LOL!

I hear you! Back in the original WitE I went in thinking they were the murder divisions that I'd gotten used to from my board wargaming days and pretty quickly learned that they're really sort of brittle. And, since you mentioned them, yes, if you see a Soviet mech division and think that it might be a good idea to send your Pzs against them, think again! [:D]



Jango32 -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/24/2021 7:19:13 AM)

I suspect they are so brittle because the simulation has the AFVs engage other AFVs regardless of how advantageous that would be in that particular combat. So the losses skyrocket first, and only then do the other elements of the division step in. That's just a suspicion though, I haven't engaged in a battle with the highest detail level setting to see what actually happens.



Iam5not8 -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/24/2021 11:50:11 AM)

Report at OKH July 13th, 22 days after the start of barbarossa.
Average tank TOE at 50% in 3 turns :

[image]local://upfiles/72238/FED4EAAE703E45B6A3836D24CA689BC1.jpg[/image]



Jango32 -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/24/2021 11:51:14 AM)

Those aren't total losses (irrecoverable), however. Total losses by September 1941 reached 970 AFVs across all of the Panzer divisions, far below 50% of the starting forces at 27%.



AlbertN -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/24/2021 11:58:39 AM)

To point historical data where there are different recreations of history is ever relative, if not brutally useless.

In history the Panzer Divisions spearheaded, fought first hand and Infantry followed up - often spirited up by the fact their armoured comrades were already winning the battles ahead.

In WITE2 how many German players pratically encircle Smolensk with the armoured divisions and seize it in time and how many have to wait for the infantries to catch up there already? (Admittedly historically the panzers took their respite moment after securing Smolensk encirclement - in that sector at least).

There is a difference between History = Heavy panzer losses through heavy, multiple fighting (successful fighting) and WITE2 = Heavy Panzer losses at the first enemy contact with anything that is not a depleted / shaken and unready division or a a brigade.

Thus the two are totally different worlds in how they unfold.




Stamb -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/24/2021 1:30:11 PM)

+ for AlbertN.
Soviets has no reason to stay and fight in pvp game. They just retreat and retreat. Maybe bigger VP time bonus will make them stay and defend Kiev/Smolensk ?



Erik Rutins -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/24/2021 2:17:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN
There is a difference between History = Heavy panzer losses through heavy, multiple fighting (successful fighting) and WITE2 = Heavy Panzer losses at the first enemy contact with anything that is not a depleted / shaken and unready division or a a brigade.


In my experience, if you use them historically you end up with roughly historical losses. If you over-use them, you can burn them out faster, it all depends on the player. They generally take no losses at all against depleted/shake/unready divisions.

Regards,

- Erik




Erik Rutins -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/24/2021 2:18:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb
+ for AlbertN.
Soviets has no reason to stay and fight in pvp game. They just retreat and retreat. Maybe bigger VP time bonus will make them stay and defend Kiev/Smolensk ?


Are you not finding the sudden death victory checks and the desire to limit the Axis high watermark for later in the war enough incentive? Or are you playing with the "No Early End" version or focusing only on 1941?

Regards,

- Erik



therealevan -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/24/2021 2:51:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

+ for AlbertN.
Soviets has no reason to stay and fight in pvp game. They just retreat and retreat. Maybe bigger VP time bonus will make them stay and defend Kiev/Smolensk ?


In several of my WiTE2 games so far, that is very much the case. The Soviet AI makes little no to effort in a delaying action and prefers to make massive retreating movements. By the time I'm able to catch up their lines appear heavily reinforced. Attempting breakthrough becomes a multi-turn & costly endeavor.



Yogol -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/24/2021 2:52:03 PM)

Why would you not attack with them? What is the harm in having a weak tank division?

You got two options:

A.
- don't attack with your tank divisions
- flip hexes with strong divisions

B.
- attack with your tank divisions
- flip hexes with weak divisions

Weak formations are just as good at flipping hexes than strong formations, no?
It might maybe even be easier to resupply an almost depleted tank division with freight (read: fuel) to keep going because there are less tanks in them.

Or am I missing something?



loki100 -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/24/2021 4:06:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

....
In WITE2 how many German players pratically encircle Smolensk with the armoured divisions and seize it in time and how many have to wait for the infantries to catch up there already? (Admittedly historically the panzers took their respite moment after securing Smolensk encirclement - in that sector at least).

...


How many Soviet players leave the actual city undefended and concentrate their forces to the south?



AlbertN -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/24/2021 4:53:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

....
In WITE2 how many German players pratically encircle Smolensk with the armoured divisions and seize it in time and how many have to wait for the infantries to catch up there already? (Admittedly historically the panzers took their respite moment after securing Smolensk encirclement - in that sector at least).

...


How many Soviet players leave the actual city undefended and concentrate their forces to the south?


No one that I know of because:

A) Axis advance is tied to logistics that can only advance so far per turn.
B) South has lots of plains vs Center / North has lots of defensive terrain.
C) Absolute lack of incentive / reason to defend upfront besides VPs - that are diluted and dotted.

A + B + C = D

D) It is a no brainer to defend where the terrain is better, at parity of distance from Greater Reich border.



Stamb -> RE: As an axis player, I am afraid of using my armor. (12/24/2021 5:38:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Are you not finding the sudden death victory checks and the desire to limit the Axis high watermark for later in the war enough incentive? Or are you playing with the "No Early End" version or focusing only on 1941?

Regards,

- Erik


Ah yes. I am playing in No Early End in both AI and PvP.
AI is trying to defend cities, but players just retreat and retreat until there is a wall of supplied and refitted Soviets.
That is why Soviets will have a massive army even in first winter as they do not need to stay and defend their ground by risking of getting into a pockets.

Not sure how it plays in sudden victory. But i am not interested in that scenario.




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