Why aren't my units getting supplies? (Full Version)

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SchDerGrosse -> Why aren't my units getting supplies? (12/30/2021 4:13:23 PM)

I have a depot with lvl 4 priority in Krasno-something, while also parking an FBD unit and an army HQ in the same hex.

Still, iam only getting ~4,600 freight, which is seemingly barely enough to provide SOME supplies to the neighbouring units (and as you can see, that 13-12 tank unit didnt get a single piece of the supply distributed).

The trains use a single tracked line, however it is not congested.

I just dont know what the problem could be as in the old game, this scenario would have meant that my units are literary "sitting on the railhead" and thus getting ample of supplies and replacement.

Not here though.

[image]https://i.ibb.co/18Y709H/Untitled.jpg[/image]

[image]https://i.ibb.co/ZSDFMBJ/Untitled-2.jpg[/image]

Thanks in advance for the insight,



Jango32 -> RE: Why aren't my units getting supplies? (12/30/2021 4:22:29 PM)

Looks like you were trying to create a super depot. Was the FBD on turn 12 sitting on that hex already? Because in order to create a super depot, the FBD must have been on the depot hex and it must not have moved at all on the previous turn, in addition to having an army or above HQ sitting on that hex.



Stamb -> RE: Why aren't my units getting supplies? (12/30/2021 4:23:21 PM)

You should use double rail line to try and get maximum possible supply (that line that goes through Luga and is under enemy control), single line is not enough.
Also i would not keep units priority at #4, in such conditions (far from a well supplied depot), as they will use more trucks to try and get requested supply from as far as they can (within some limit) thus lowering their CV and MP.



AlbertN -> RE: Why aren't my units getting supplies? (12/30/2021 4:51:30 PM)

I think the point was missed and it is the same issue I've in some situations in my AAR.

The 12th Panzer Division -is not even trying- to get some supplies despite being level 4.

So folks should try to make it clear if 'Priority 4 = Try to get lots of supply even if your Trucks are going to perform the Paris-Dakar in order to get the unit refuelled and resupplied' - then the unit should have quite the Supply Detail log here of how and where it went to grab supplies.

Instead the 12th Panzer did absolutely nothing - in accord to the screenshot.

Dare say because of Low Supply, it vaguely recovered fatigue as well. In fact at the start of the Turn, said unit has still 43 Fatigue. (I assume it is the start of the turn).

BUT the answer I think lays in the fact the local depot has alraedy gave out all of the Freight it receveid.

4000+ Freight got there but other units grabbed it before the Panzer Unit had a go itself.
That is my assumption.
Also I've the suspect the system averages Supply+Fuel+Ammunitions in order to compute the real need of a unit to grab supplies.
That sets many units to starve. In my own AAR I've plenty of troops with 100% ammunitions because they sit and do not fight, but are getting to 10-20% critical level of supplies AND they get 0 supplies like your panzer division.

Going beyond pure technicalities, you can see your primary depot upfront sends freight 'backward' to the infantries of the 18th Army.

So first bit is 'get more freight where you need it'. Which can be a tricky part. But instead of having a Super Depot there I'd repair the railway from Talinn to Kingsiepp and plot another depot there.

That way IF things work as they should you ought to get shipping via sea into Talinn and that proceeds on its own railroad to Kingsiepp; and then you have your normal flux via Pskov.



Iam5not8 -> RE: Why aren't my units getting supplies? (12/30/2021 5:37:47 PM)

First, I would position an army HQ on the depot, airlift some supplies to Krasnovargrdeysk, and create few intermediate depot between Slancy and Krasnovargrdeysk, for example in Volosovo, Veyrman...
The rail line is green so not fully used. To increase the supply distribution volume, I would create more depots, as there is not big railyard in the area.
With one small depot on lvl 1 railyard, you can distribute a few ktons, trucks are limited.

On a longer term, a single rail line to support all those divisions including a few mot & Pz Divs may be too short. You may consider to take/ repair / use the double rail line from Pskov to Luga.

And ofc, re-read some parts of the manual §4.10.5, §25.7.7, §25.7.8.




loki100 -> RE: Why aren't my units getting supplies? (12/31/2021 9:53:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I think the point was missed and it is the same issue I've in some situations in my AAR.

The 12th Panzer Division -is not even trying- to get some supplies despite being level 4.

So folks should try to make it clear if 'Priority 4 = Try to get lots of supply even if your Trucks are going to perform the Paris-Dakar in order to get the unit refuelled and resupplied' - then the unit should have quite the Supply Detail log here of how and where it went to grab supplies.

Instead the 12th Panzer did absolutely nothing - in accord to the screenshot.



Lets unpick this, the Player's Note in the manual have a discussion about the problem of placing units on a high priority. It doesn't guarentee they get it, just that they try - and often to their detriment.

I realise there is a temptation to use the higher priority levels but especially up around Leningrad in 1941 they are not a good idea

the answer is indeed in the next section. Remember that units only look to a max of 30 hexes, precisely to stop them sending their trucks back to the NSS

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

...

BUT the answer I think lays in the fact the local depot has alraedy gave out all of the Freight it receveid.

4000+ Freight got there but other units grabbed it before the Panzer Unit had a go itself.
That is my assumption.



Again in the manual and posted a few times, the routine is in five steps

1) every unit (pri 0,1,2,3,4) try to get 30% of their freight needs, within this list there is a hierachy where the pri 4 goes first
2) repeated but for 1,2,3,4, try to get 50% rest as above
3) repeats

So basically everything will try to grab 30% of its freight need, if it meets that it sits out that step (ie already has enough)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Also I've the suspect the system averages Supply+Fuel+Ammunitions in order to compute the real need of a unit to grab supplies.
That sets many units to starve. In my own AAR I've plenty of troops with 100% ammunitions because they sit and do not fight, but are getting to 10-20% critical level of supplies AND they get 0 supplies like your panzer division.

Going beyond pure technicalities, you can see your primary depot upfront sends freight 'backward' to the infantries of the 18th Army.



yes, as in the manual, freight arrives at the NSS as fuel/ammo etc, it move around the map and sits in depots as generic freight (there is a very good game performance reason for this) and is broken out at the unit level in part to need and in part to reflect what is in the total pools

I'm not sure how units handle demand if they lots of one type and a real gap elsewhere. You may be right there is an averaging but from my current game I am seeing units fill out gaps even if they are oversupplied in other areas.

But then I have a robust supply network in place, something that is near impossible to achieve on this sector in 1941


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

So first bit is 'get more freight where you need it'. Which can be a tricky part. But instead of having a Super Depot there I'd repair the railway from Talinn to Kingsiepp and plot another depot there.

That way IF things work as they should you ought to get shipping via sea into Talinn and that proceeds on its own railroad to Kingsiepp; and then you have your normal flux via Pskov.


agree, I'd be repairing rail lines, in a way the super-depot is a bit of a trap. I've significantly changed my mind on this since the game's release and now use pri 4, large railyard locations, some distance from the front to act as freight collection points and then release to need. Drop this is pri 2/3 and it will flow forwards to the front line depots.



Denniss -> RE: Why aren't my units getting supplies? (12/31/2021 10:03:13 AM)

in your screenshot you have one rail hex next to an enemy controlled hex, thsi may also cause an issue with freight stopping there or paying a penalty. You hex should be occupied by one of your units.



Stamb -> RE: Why aren't my units getting supplies? (12/31/2021 10:04:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
...
I've significantly changed my mind on this since the game's release and now use pri 4, large railyard locations, some distance from the front to act as freight collection points and then release to need. Drop this is pri 2/3 and it will flow forwards to the front line depots.

This is true in most cases. But sometimes there can be some weird freight routes when Riga was at #4 and then dropped to 3, and it will send part of the freight to the opposite side of the map, like Odessa which is #4.
So it looks like you have to drop priority simultaneously in multiple places to avoid this situation.

IMHO, current freight system works fine in small scenarios were there is only a narrow part of the map, and depots are in a straight line, like Road to Leningrad.
And it fails in GC.

Edit.

Zovs posted in his AAR that there will an update and changes to a supply system, maybe it will help.



loki100 -> RE: Why aren't my units getting supplies? (12/31/2021 10:11:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
...
I've significantly changed my mind on this since the game's release and now use pri 4, large railyard locations, some distance from the front to act as freight collection points and then release to need. Drop this is pri 2/3 and it will flow forwards to the front line depots.

This is true in most cases. But sometimes there can be some weird freight routes when Riga was at #4 and then dropped to 3, and it will send part of the freight to the opposite side of the map, like Odessa which is #4.
So it looks like you have to drop priority simultaneously in multiple places to avoid this situation.

IMHO, current freight system works fine in small scenarios were there is only a narrow part of the map, and depots are in a straight line, like Road to Leningrad.
And it fails in GC.

Edit.

Zovs posted in his AAR that there will an update and changes to a supply system, maybe it will help.


oh there are some wierd choices I agree. Put it down to SNAFU, the friction of military operations, misfiled orders etc. In other words you can, as AlbertN does, obsess on this to the point of clear frustration to him, or accept that military logistics do go wrong.

But on balance the system works fine - in a way I think the mistake is hunting that last piece of efficiency, its like one of those tower games when the last brick can wreck the entire system

Roger



Stamb -> RE: Why aren't my units getting supplies? (12/31/2021 10:23:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
...
I've significantly changed my mind on this since the game's release and now use pri 4, large railyard locations, some distance from the front to act as freight collection points and then release to need. Drop this is pri 2/3 and it will flow forwards to the front line depots.

This is true in most cases. But sometimes there can be some weird freight routes when Riga was at #4 and then dropped to 3, and it will send part of the freight to the opposite side of the map, like Odessa which is #4.
So it looks like you have to drop priority simultaneously in multiple places to avoid this situation.

IMHO, current freight system works fine in small scenarios were there is only a narrow part of the map, and depots are in a straight line, like Road to Leningrad.
And it fails in GC.

Edit.

Zovs posted in his AAR that there will an update and changes to a supply system, maybe it will help.


oh there are some wierd choices I agree. Put it down to SNAFU, the friction of military operations, misfiled orders etc. In other words you can, as AlbertN does, obsess on this to the point of clear frustration to him, or accept that military logistics do go wrong.

But on balance the system works fine - in a way I think the mistake is hunting that last piece of efficiency, its like one of those tower games when the last brick can wreck the entire system

Roger

Haha. I really appreciate AlbertN and his investigation! It might be one of the reasons why there will be changes in a new patch.
After buying a game and playing my first GC i also started to realize that something is not right with a supply system. But i have no time, nor desire to make such an investigations as AlbertN did, as results will make me just more sad about it.
So i have two choices - not to play at all, or accept what we have and play and hope for a changes.
I select the second option :)



AlbertN -> RE: Why aren't my units getting supplies? (12/31/2021 12:48:45 PM)

I just try to understand things in the way of 'If there is an effect, usually there is a cause'.

I try to look at it as investment gain, once learnt, it should be that. Lots of work spared for future occurrences, assuming I am to play this game for an amount of time.

And the game has a huge component about getting the logistic right, well before any tactical or operational accomplishments units can net on the field.



loki100 -> RE: Why aren't my units getting supplies? (12/31/2021 1:15:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I just try to understand things in the way of 'If there is an effect, usually there is a cause'.

I try to look at it as investment gain, once learnt, it should be that. Lots of work spared for future occurrences, assuming I am to play this game for an amount of time.

And the game has a huge component about getting the logistic right, well before any tactical or operational accomplishments units can net on the field.


I don't disagree with the last statement but I (personally) think its not a system you ever get perfect control over.

At the simplest, the code is hugely complex, Joel has mentioned this a few times. This is made more tricky as for most players the logistics phase happens, you can't observe, and the best you can do is to piece together the outcomes against what you wanted.

You have a number of broad brush tools, depot layout and priority, HQ deployment, the trade off in rail repair speed and targets. Even the people who can broadly get the system to work disagree on some of those issues, I've changed my mind radically since the game was released (from a 1941 Axis POV, I hold to my original analysis for the Soviets post-1943),

From your AAR, you are looking for certainties when they probably don't exist (& lets face many a large organisation, never mind an army operating in a very hostile terrain can f*** up its supply chain), trying to put together the really partial information we have.

I realise there is a style of play to the WiTx games were micro-management and obsession over the details is what marks out an 'elite' player. I actually think most of the design of WiTE2 renders some of this less valuable (& think that is a good thing). But, as above, the focus for a good logistics system is using the tools presented, its not throwing your hands up in horror because a train went from Minsk to Dnepropetrovsk.

I can only speak for myself, but I can make the logistics system deliver the outcome I need. I link my operational tempo to the logistics tempo (perhaps a bit too much) and it works fine. I don't run out of trucks, I don't have mobile formations on low MP turn after turn due to truck shortages, I manage to refit my Pzrs in the reserve and bring back to the map perfectly functional, I can get a lot of the LW. And, I never check the precise route of my trains.



Stamb -> RE: Why aren't my units getting supplies? (12/31/2021 1:33:29 PM)

Is it possible to code loki's supply skills into auto depot management?! [&o]



aMaschina -> RE: Why aren't my units getting supplies? (1/10/2022 4:57:27 AM)

How do you get this mapmode that shows the unit-depot interaction via lines as in picture 1? I was looking for this since i used it in wite1 but couldnt find it in wite 2 sadly



Stamb -> RE: Why aren't my units getting supplies? (1/10/2022 7:58:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aMaschina

How do you get this mapmode that shows the unit-depot interaction via lines as in picture 1? I was looking for this since i used it in wite1 but couldnt find it in wite 2 sadly

on keyboard press "8", not sure if it works on a numpad



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