Game map as 3D scrolling texture

Game map as 3D scrolling texture (Full Version)

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Ihmemies2 -> Game map as 3D scrolling texture (12/31/2021 11:02:05 AM)
Hello, I understand there are reasons for the GUI to be as it is. Old school etc. But why must the technical implementation of the map be so ancient too? It should be possible in 2021 to move the map smoothly around at 120fps. Incrementially, pixel by pixel, if needed. Would it be possible to render the map as a 3D textures and divide it to grids and update the neccessary textures when needed? Or whatever is the most efficient/best solution instead of the current one. And if you want to scroll around then it should be possible to do smoothly... It is hard to understand because currently the map scrolling feels like the most computationally heavy task my PC has ever done. RTX games are a trivial joke compared to the current map speed in Shadow Empires. I'd imagine that modern GUI and fluidiy would make your games a lot more palatable to people. Thanks!

mroyer -> RE: Game map as 3D scrolling texture (1/1/2022 2:25:43 PM)
Ignoring for the moment any possible map-scrolling issues, what is the advantage of a 3D map rendering (vs 2D) for a game like Shadow Empire (SE)? I'm all for progress when it adds value, but not progress simply for the sake of progress. I'm not seeing the added value for SE. Faster/smoother scrolling would (of course) be a great goal, regardless of 2D/3D. -Mark R.

zgrssd -> RE: Game map as 3D scrolling texture (1/1/2022 2:58:58 PM)
quote: I understand there are reasons for the GUI to be as it is. Old school etc. Actually the reason is that the game engine is a variant of Windows Forms. Drawing via GDI+. Whenever asked about game development in Windows I say this: "Do not try to do it in Windows Forms, WPF or any other Desktop UI technology. The old pre-vista Solitaire is about the upper level of what games you can comfortably do in Windows Forms. Much more then turnbased singleplayer or hotseat multiplayer games are going to face a serious extra challenge on what is already very hard." So yeah. Do not expect the UI to improove at all. It is a few minor wonders it is even on this level. Longterm it will be a dead end to continue working on the engine, but we can only watch in amazement for anything Vic manages to squeeze out of it.

Ihmemies2 -> RE: Game map as 3D scrolling texture (1/1/2022 3:25:53 PM)
Well the idea would be to use direct3d or opengl or vulkan or something to handle the rendering of the game map.. and using the GPU for it. GPU's can do calculations like that super easily. Even Intel integrated GPU's. I really don't know about the technical side, I just know that my GPU can render stuff way faster than the game now does :D

mroyer -> RE: Game map as 3D scrolling texture (1/1/2022 3:45:38 PM)
quote: Actually the reason is that the game engine is a variant of Windows Forms. Drawing via GDI+ Seriously?? I'm very surprised. I just assumed Shadow Empire was based on the Unity game engine and Vic was only using a few WinForms popups here-n-there for convenience (e.g., the save/open file dialogs). -Mark R.

zgrssd -> RE: Game map as 3D scrolling texture (1/1/2022 5:15:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mroyer

quote:

Actually the reason is that the game engine is a variant of Windows Forms. Drawing via GDI+

Seriously?? I'm very surprised. I just assumed Shadow Empire was based on the Unity game engine and Vic was only using a few WinForms popups here-n-there for convenience (e.g., the save/open file dialogs).

-Mark R.

I was just as surprised to learn it. But you can see it over basically every stacktrace:
at WindowsApplication1.SpecialWindowClass4..ctor(GameClass& tGame, Int32 tUseWidth, Int32 tUseHeight) in G:\VR\VRDevelopment\WindowsApplication1\GUI\Windows\Se1_Windows\Se1_SpecialWindow4.vb:line 125
at WindowsApplication1.ManagementScreenClass..ctor(GameClass& tgame, Form1 tformref) in G:\VR\VRDevelopment\WindowsApplication1\GUI\Screens\Se1_Screens\SE_ManagementScreenClass.vb:line 31
at WindowsApplication1.Form1.Form1_Mousedown(Object sender, MouseEventArgs e) in G:\VR\VRDevelopment\WindowsApplication1\Form1.vb:line 1564
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.OnMouseDown(MouseEventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WmMouseDown(Message& m, MouseButtons button, Int32 clicks)
at System.Windows.Forms.Control.WndProc(Message& m)
at System.Windows.Forms.Form.WndProc(Message& m)
at WindowsApplication1.ImmoveableForm.WndProc(Message& m) in G:\VR\VRDevelopment\WindowsApplication1\ImmoveableForm.vb:line 68
at System.Windows.Forms.NativeWindow.Callback(IntPtr hWnd, Int32 msg, IntPtr wparam, IntPtr lparam)

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5107254

mroyer -> RE: Game map as 3D scrolling texture (1/1/2022 5:31:16 PM)
[:)] my very own exception stack-trace... honestly, despite posting them, I've never read them figuring they'd have little value without Visual Studio and source code. But, yes, now that you point it out it is very clear (even down to the use of the default project name WindowsApplication1 [;)]). Looks like it's visual basic, which also surprises me - I'd have expected C#, although these days with CLR there's little practical difference, syntax aside. -Mark R.

Arralen -> RE: Game map as 3D scrolling texture (1/2/2022 5:37:29 PM)
C#, Unity ... why? If the tools you know and like to work with get the job done, why invest the time and effort needed re-learning, re-coding everything from scratch? Switching from VB to C# requires a lot of re-learning and re-coding. Coding (for) a 3D-engine is not trivial, especially if you are not a programmer who happens to amuse himself with writing a computer game, but a game designer who must get along with what he can manage. And then don't underestimate the additional workload that results from "just doing it in 3D". While you can happily move a pixel icon made in paint over some background pixel map in 2D, in 3D you need models, textures, shaders, ... And what does a 3D rendered map offer what a 2D map can't? In ShadE, we move (more or less) abstracted unit markers over an abstracted map. And the engine does that just fine. (Don't know why some complain about the srolling, its fine for me ...) Do you want realistic rendering? Check the manual, "5.16. On the Scale", ... a hex is 200km (125miles) across. Even 4km high mountains would only "stand out" from the map plane by 2% ... barely visible. And good luck finding your tank batallion ... . Or do you want ridiculously oversized cartoonish 3D units wandering around a trivialised landscape, where 3 houses are a town and 5 trees a forest? Other games have gone this route, and I really really hope that SE does not. And than there is another aspect which is not that obvious to most, I guess: Atm, I can have ShadE sitting there, waiting for the next turn the whole day long - and it does not bother my PC the slightest, as the program sits at 0% CPU and 0% GPU unless I am actually doing something. If you go 3D, the 3D engine has to render the main game window at full speed, whole time, because the OS has nothing to do with that window. (Yes, I know, oversimplified ...). Check your typical 3D game, even turn-based ones - they are wasting a whole lot of energy for exactly ... nothing.

zgrssd -> RE: Game map as 3D scrolling texture (1/2/2022 8:04:14 PM)
quote: C#, Unity ... why? If the tools you know and like to work with get the job done, why invest the time and effort needed re-learning, re-coding everything from scratch? Because why would I try to get a nail in the wall with the handle of a screwdriver, if a hammer is just sitting there? Windows Forms is the Screwdriver. Any game engine based around a game loop is the hammer. No need to go all the way to 3D or Unity specific. Just abouve every option is better then WinForms. We will not see such a change in SE. This is the kind of change you maybe get for Shadow Empires 2. But Windows Forms is definitely the wrong toolset to start your own game engine with (which is what Vic has done by now).

Ihmemies2 -> RE: Game map as 3D scrolling texture (1/3/2022 10:40:46 AM)
I really do not know anything about technical implementation. I only see the results. And the current results are not good. In all other strategy games I've played, like civilization series etc. with hexes, the game has been smooth. I can smoothly move the map around and in Shadow Empire's case it's really far from it. Whatever implementation to make it smoother and more responsive would be welcome. Computers have the resources, just have to use them... Another thing I wonder is why the construct road pop-up takes many seconds to open. It should in theory open instantly, like all the other menus in the game.

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