RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (Full Version)

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HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (1/31/2022 8:44:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

If we imagine that there are only 3 railyards:
Berlin, Lvov, Stalino. And Lvov is > 30 hexes from Berlin and Stalino. In that case it would not help to move freight at all if set to priority 0, thus not requesting any freight for itself?



level 0 depot will not request freight but may store freight if needed. Seen it and also read it in the manual. Now having said that you will still need level 2 rail yards to move that freight to a depot within 30 hexes. Otherwise what is the vehicle to move the freight if this is not the case?




Stamb -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (1/31/2022 8:49:25 PM)

Just trying to understand the logistic system, not for the first time, not for the last one!

What happens if we add Kiev to my example, and it is < 30 hexes from Lvov, and priority > 1. Will Lvov rail yard contribute to a freight that will get to a Kiev despite being > 30 hexes from an NSS? (still there are no other depots with a freight in my example)




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (1/31/2022 9:10:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Just trying to understand the logistic system, not for the first time, not for the last one!

What happens if we add Kiev to my example, and it is < 30 hexes from Lvov, and priority > 1. Will Lvov rail yard contribute to a freight that will get to a Kiev despite being > 30 hexes from an NSS? (still there are no other depots with a freight in my example)


IF anything is < 30 hexes of the level 2+ Railyard that Railyard capacity may be utilized to move the freight. Think of the Level 2 Railyard as "Train Engines" to move the rail cars(freight). Thus a level 2+ Railyard of Lvov can move that freight to a depot within 30 hexes and then a level 2+ Railyard at Kiev could pick up(send train engines) that frieght (rail cars) and continue to move that freight on the rail (using rail capacity of the track) on down the line to the highest destination depot number on the rail line. That is why you will see freight received from Berlin on some of these depots that are deep in the Soviet Union. At least that is how I visualize it and may be 100% wrong but seems very right to me in the workings.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (1/31/2022 9:11:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Just trying to understand the logistic system, not for the first time, not for the last one!

What happens if we add Kiev to my example, and it is < 30 hexes from Lvov, and priority > 1. Will Lvov rail yard contribute to a freight that will get to a Kiev despite being > 30 hexes from an NSS? (still there are no other depots with a freight in my example)


IF anything is < 30 hexes of the level 2+ Railyard that Railyard capacity may be utilized to move the freight. Think of the Level 2 Railyard as "Train Engines" to move the rail cars(freight). Thus a level 2+ Railyard of Lvov can move that freight to a depot within 30 hexes and then a level 2+ Railyard at Kiev could pick up(send train engines) that frieght (rail cars) and continue to move that freight on the rail (using rail capacity of the track) on down the line to the highest destination depot number on the rail line. That is why you will see freight received from Berlin on some of these depots that are deep in the Soviet Union. At least that is how I visualize it and may be 100% wrong but seems very right to me in the workings.


I can draw this up for this AAR but I have to go and get some things done around the house since my wife is giving me the evil eye at the moment.




Beethoven1 -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (1/31/2022 9:20:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

If the model on the other hand is done by continuous rail hexes counted by rail hexes then both Lvov and Rzeszow can only get freight to the black circled depot location on the map.

You can see the difference between the two different possibilities based on how either the 30 hex radius or 30 hex continuous rail hex plays into the equation and thus why I am asking.

local://upfiles/53556/68A23976B7434DC0A47EC8A779A0DA59.jpg


That is not how it works. Freight can be moved from the Lvov and Rseszow depots to your other depots further on up to a distance equal to 200 SMP for the given marginal unit of freight. There is no 30 hex limit for the distance that freight can be moved.

Instead, the meaning of the 30 hex limit is different. What it means is, if you have a depot at e.g. Vinnitsa, and want to move freight that is stored in Vinnitsa on towards Dnepropetrovsk, the railyard in Lvov will only contribute to moving that freight if it is within 30 hexes (by rail) of your depot in Vinnitsa.

If you don't understand this explanation, you should also read the "Quick Questions and Quick Answers" thread, around page 44-45 or so (iirc, it is a few pages back from the current position) Loki explains this in response to some questions.




Beethoven1 -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (1/31/2022 9:28:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Just trying to understand the logistic system, not for the first time, not for the last one!

What happens if we add Kiev to my example, and it is < 30 hexes from Lvov, and priority > 1. Will Lvov rail yard contribute to a freight that will get to a Kiev despite being > 30 hexes from an NSS? (still there are no other depots with a freight in my example)


You have got things the wrong way around (misled by HLYA's explanation I think).

The railyard in Lvov will contribute to providing "trains" to help ship freight that will get to Kiev IF the depot at which the freight is STARTING from is both within 30 hexes (by rail) of Lvov AND ALSO is within 200 SMP of movement cost for the given marginal unit of freight that is being moved forward along the relevant rail line (in this case presumably the double rail line). Each additional unit of freight you ship along that rail line, after a certain point, will increase the SMP cost of moving additional freight along, and so then subsequent units of freight can move less far (just as if you rail too many units, the SMP movement cost of railing additional units along the same rail line will increase).

So in practice, the railyard in Lvov will help to move freight forward to Kiev - and actually quite a long ways further. However, it will only help move freight that STARTS within 30 hexes by rail of Lvov. So if you do not have a bunch of freight that is stored in intermediate depots within 30 hexes of Lvov, it won't make any difference.




Stamb -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (1/31/2022 9:34:22 PM)

So how setting all depots at priority 4 is not making any harm to a freight delivered to a front?
I would expect that front line depots will get much less freight as rail yards were contributed into delivering freight to the other 4 depots that are in the back, and not only to a front line depots as a priority.




Beethoven1 -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (1/31/2022 9:44:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

So how setting all depots at priority 4 is not making any harm to a freight delivered to a front?
I would expect that front line depots will get much less freight as rail yards were contributed into delivering freight to the other 4 depots that are in the back, and not only to a front line depots as a priority.


It does make some harm to freight delivery to your furthest forward depot, but at least early in 1941, in practice that harm is pretty limited/negligible.

The reason why it is limited is that you have a lot of freight starting in Berlin (and other NSS's) which can travel up to 200 SMP into the Soviet Union. 200 SMP is a long way (up until the point when you are sending so much freight that the rail line is clogged and overloaded, which increases the SMP cost of sending additional freight), and since 200 SMP is a long way that means that you are not going to get deep enough into the Soviet Union very quickly that you will start getting particularly limited by the 200 SMP limit for a while.

That is why carlkay's logistics strategy of setting all depots to level 4 early on in the 1941 campaign works well for Axis initially.

If, hypothetically, Berlin and all the other Axis NSS's were further away (for example, if they were back in France), then it wouldn't work as well. Another part of the reason why the harm to freight delivery to the furthest forward depot is limited is because how much freight each depot receives also partly depends on how much demand it has, and the further forward depots will have more demand than the intermediate depots (even if both are set on level 4 priority), and so consequently the further forward depots will receive more freight, and you don't have too much of a problem of the system sending freight to intermediate depots that could be sent on to further forward depots.

By making additional depots behind the one that is closest to the front, and having them be set on a high depot priority (level 4), he is able to capture additional marginal units of freight at those further back depots that have slightly too high of a SMP cost to be able to go further forward to the most deep-into-the-soviet-union depot (since a lot of other freight has already been sent and clogged up the rail line).




Stamb -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (1/31/2022 9:56:24 PM)

Why having only front depots at 4 and other at 3 is a bad practice? Those at 3 should be able to catch freight that is out of SMP to reach 4.
And in should work even better, as front line depots at 4 will be able to draw freight from that 3, 3 from 2, 2 from 1, and 1 from NSS. Thus reducing cost for freight movement.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (1/31/2022 10:01:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

If the model on the other hand is done by continuous rail hexes counted by rail hexes then both Lvov and Rzeszow can only get freight to the black circled depot location on the map.

You can see the difference between the two different possibilities based on how either the 30 hex radius or 30 hex continuous rail hex plays into the equation and thus why I am asking.

local://upfiles/53556/68A23976B7434DC0A47EC8A779A0DA59.jpg


That is not how it works. Freight can be moved from the Lvov and Rseszow depots to your other depots further on up to a distance equal to 200 SMP for the given marginal unit of freight. There is no 30 hex limit for the distance that freight can be moved.

Instead, the meaning of the 30 hex limit is different. What it means is, if you have a depot at e.g. Vinnitsa, and want to move freight that is stored in Vinnitsa on towards Dnepropetrovsk, the railyard in Lvov will only contribute to moving that freight if it is within 30 hexes (by rail) of your depot in Vinnitsa.

If you don't understand this explanation, you should also read the "Quick Questions and Quick Answers" thread, around page 44-45 or so (iirc, it is a few pages back from the current position) Loki explains this in response to some questions.


Huh? Again I believe you are agreeing with me even though you are saying I am wrong. Think you need to read post #183 of mine above. It is almost verbatim what I wrote. I will just post it here again for you to read.

" IF anything is < 30 hexes of the level 2+ Railyard that Railyard capacity may be utilized to move the freight. Think of the Level 2 Railyard as "Train Engines" to move the rail cars(freight). Thus a level 2+ Railyard of Lvov can move that freight to a depot within 30 hexes and then a level 2+ Railyard at Kiev could pick up(send train engines) that frieght (rail cars) and continue to move that freight on the rail (using rail capacity of the track) on down the line to the highest destination depot number on the rail line. That is why you will see freight received from Berlin on some of these depots that are deep in the Soviet Union. At least that is how I visualize it and may be 100% wrong but seems very right to me in the workings"




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (1/31/2022 10:05:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

If the model on the other hand is done by continuous rail hexes counted by rail hexes then both Lvov and Rzeszow can only get freight to the black circled depot location on the map.

You can see the difference between the two different possibilities based on how either the 30 hex radius or 30 hex continuous rail hex plays into the equation and thus why I am asking.

local://upfiles/53556/68A23976B7434DC0A47EC8A779A0DA59.jpg


That is not how it works. Freight can be moved from the Lvov and Rseszow depots to your other depots further on up to a distance equal to 200 SMP for the given marginal unit of freight. There is no 30 hex limit for the distance that freight can be moved.

Instead, the meaning of the 30 hex limit is different. What it means is, if you have a depot at e.g. Vinnitsa, and want to move freight that is stored in Vinnitsa on towards Dnepropetrovsk, the railyard in Lvov will only contribute to moving that freight if it is within 30 hexes (by rail) of your depot in Vinnitsa.

If you don't understand this explanation, you should also read the "Quick Questions and Quick Answers" thread, around page 44-45 or so (iirc, it is a few pages back from the current position) Loki explains this in response to some questions.


Huh? Again I believe you are agreeing with me even though you are saying I am wrong. Think you need to read post #183 of mine above. It is almost verbatim what I wrote. I will just post it here again for you to read.

" IF anything is < 30 hexes of the level 2+ Railyard that Railyard capacity may be utilized to move the freight. Think of the Level 2 Railyard as "Train Engines" to move the rail cars(freight). Thus a level 2+ Railyard of Lvov can move that freight to a depot within 30 hexes and then a level 2+ Railyard at Kiev could pick up(send train engines) that frieght (rail cars) and continue to move that freight on the rail (using rail capacity of the track) on down the line to the highest destination depot number on the rail line. That is why you will see freight received from Berlin on some of these depots that are deep in the Soviet Union. At least that is how I visualize it and may be 100% wrong but seems very right to me in the workings"



Level 2+ rail yards contribute the means to move the freight the 200 SMP's.




Beethoven1 -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (1/31/2022 10:37:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Why having only front depots at 4 and other at 3 is a bad practice? Those at 3 should be able to catch freight that is out of SMP to reach 4.


The reason why it is a bad practice (or a bad practice at least to some degree) is that how much freight depots receive is not only based on how much capacity there is to send freight (how much supply), but also is partly based on how much demand for freight there is.

If you don't have enough demand, then it won't necessarily always send as much freight as it could send. And if you have a depot on priority 4, that signals to the system that you have a larger demand, so it sends more overall freight than if you

The key thing that is confusing here, which I think is a large part of what is misleading so many people, is the word "priority." The game talks about "supply priority" and "depot priority." The use of the word "priority" makes it sound like you are prioritizing the allocation of a GIVEN quantity of supply between different competing entities which are demanding freight.

But that is not what the logistics system does (although it does do that, that is not the only thing it does). In addition to determining the allocation of freight between various things which are exerting demand for freight, the logistics system also determines the total quantity of freight that will be sent out in the first place. In other words, "priority" does not simply mean "allocation" of a given set of resources.

This is especially clear in the case of Soviet supply. For Soviets, you simply set your entire army to supply priority 4, and you can pretty much set all your depots to level 4. Why? Because supply priority does not mean prioritizing who gets supply out of a given amount of supply, it is instead asking "how much supply do you want?" If you want more supply, set a bigger supply priority. If you want less supply, set a lower supply priority.

It is similar with depot priorities. If you want more supply (freight) going to a depot, set a higher depot priority. If you want less supply (freight) going to a depot, then set a lower priority.

I suspect it may be harder for Axis players to intuitively understand because they don't normally see that, due to the need for Axis to set somewhat lower priorities some of the time for at least some units and some depots (to avoid excessive loss of trucks in the case of unit supply priorities, and because freight is more likely to be bottlenecked for the Axis until the Soviets advance far from their NSS in 1944/45, and insofar as you are actually bottlenecked then you do need to prioritize somewhat, and you have to set different priority levels to tell the system how you want the freight to be prioritized).



quote:

And in should work even better, as front line depots at 4 will be able to draw freight from that 3, 3 from 2, 2 from 1, and 1 from NSS. Thus reducing cost for freight movement.


You would be correct here if the logistics system ALWAYS sent out the maximium amount of freight that it is physically possible for it to send out. But it doesn't do that. Instead, if you don't demand enough freight by setting your depot priorities and supply priorities at too low of a level, the logistics system will say to itself, "hmmm, I guess you don't want that much freight. So I won't send out very much freight to you." So you get less supply overall than if you were to set higher priorities.




Beethoven1 -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (1/31/2022 10:53:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Huh? Again I believe you are agreeing with me even though you are saying I am wrong. Think you need to read post #183 of mine above. It is almost verbatim what I wrote. I will just post it here again for you to read.

" IF anything is < 30 hexes of the level 2+ Railyard that Railyard capacity may be utilized to move the freight. Think of the Level 2 Railyard as "Train Engines" to move the rail cars(freight). Thus a level 2+ Railyard of Lvov can move that freight to a depot within 30 hexes and then a level 2+ Railyard at Kiev could pick up(send train engines) that frieght (rail cars) and continue to move that freight on the rail (using rail capacity of the track) on down the line to the highest destination depot number on the rail line. That is why you will see freight received from Berlin on some of these depots that are deep in the Soviet Union. At least that is how I visualize it and may be 100% wrong but seems very right to me in the workings"



Level 2+ rail yards contribute the means to move the freight the 200 SMP's.


It is correct that rail yards contribute means to move freight 200 SMPs.

However, the bit which is incorrect (by my understanding, in any case) in your quote above is:

"Thus a level 2+ Railyard of Lvov can move that freight to a depot within 30 hexes and then a level 2+ Railyard at Kiev could pick up(send train engines) that frieght (rail cars) and continue to move that freight on the rail (using rail capacity of the track) on down the line to the highest destination depot number on the rail line."

Instead, the role of the level 2 railyard at Lvov is this:

If you have a depot which has freight stored in it at the start of your logistics phase (left over from your previous turn), and your depot priorities are set in such a way that the logistics system wants to move freight forward to another depot (a depot-depot transfer), then the amount of freight that will be moved from depot to depot is limited by railyard capacity. In the case where the depot that the logistics system wants to send freight from, is within 30 hexes of Lvov (by rail, not as the crow flies), then the railyard at Lvov can contribute in providing railyard capacity ("rail cars" or "trains") to move that freight forward. The distance that this freight can be sent is determined by the SMP movement cost of each marginal unit of freight that the logistics system wants to send forward, up to 200 SMP worth of movement. In general, this distance is likely to be quite a lot further than 30 hexes, although some of the last marginal units of freight that do get sent may only be able to move 30 hexes (or less) due to congestion on the rail line, if the rail line is being fully utilized.

The part that you have incorrect is when you say "a level 2+ Railyard of Lvov can move that freight to a depot within 30 hexes." Instead, it can move up to 200 SMP in distance. The 30 hex rule has nothing to do with how far freight can move. Freight can be moved quite a bit further than 30 hexes in one go.

The other part that is incorrect is when you say "a level 2+ Railyard at Kiev could pick up(send train engines) that freight (rail cars) and continue to move that freight on the rail." When the freight has been sent from some depot that was within 30 hexes of Lvov reaches the area of Kiev, it simply does not pick up additional trains (railyard capacity) using the railyard at Kiev. The only trains that are used to send the freight are ones which are originating from railyards that were within 30 hexes of the starting point of the depot from which the freight is being sent.


Hopefully that makes sense. The logistics system is intuitively difficult to understand because some of the phrasing the game uses (particularly "priority") can be misleading. It makes more sense if you try playing the Soviets, and try out the difference between using very high supply priorities and depot priorities on everything, and lower ones similar to what Germany normally uses, and compare the difference.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (1/31/2022 11:07:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Huh? Again I believe you are agreeing with me even though you are saying I am wrong. Think you need to read post #183 of mine above. It is almost verbatim what I wrote. I will just post it here again for you to read.

" IF anything is < 30 hexes of the level 2+ Railyard that Railyard capacity may be utilized to move the freight. Think of the Level 2 Railyard as "Train Engines" to move the rail cars(freight). Thus a level 2+ Railyard of Lvov can move that freight to a depot within 30 hexes and then a level 2+ Railyard at Kiev could pick up(send train engines) that frieght (rail cars) and continue to move that freight on the rail (using rail capacity of the track) on down the line to the highest destination depot number on the rail line. That is why you will see freight received from Berlin on some of these depots that are deep in the Soviet Union. At least that is how I visualize it and may be 100% wrong but seems very right to me in the workings"



Level 2+ rail yards contribute the means to move the freight the 200 SMP's.


It is correct that rail yards contribute means to move freight 200 SMPs.

However, the bit which is incorrect (by my understanding, in any case) in your quote above is:

"Thus a level 2+ Railyard of Lvov can move that freight to a depot within 30 hexes and then a level 2+ Railyard at Kiev could pick up(send train engines) that frieght (rail cars) and continue to move that freight on the rail (using rail capacity of the track) on down the line to the highest destination depot number on the rail line."

Instead, the role of the level 2 railyard at Lvov is this:

If you have a depot which has freight stored in it at the start of your logistics phase (left over from your previous turn), and your depot priorities are set in such a way that the logistics system wants to move freight forward to another depot (a depot-depot transfer), then the amount of freight that will be moved from depot to depot is limited by railyard capacity. In the case where the depot that the logistics system wants to send freight from, is within 30 hexes of Lvov (by rail, not as the crow flies), then the railyard at Lvov can contribute in providing railyard capacity ("rail cars" or "trains") to move that freight forward. The distance that this freight can be sent is determined by the SMP movement cost of each marginal unit of freight that the logistics system wants to send forward, up to 200 SMP worth of movement. In general, this distance is likely to be quite a lot further than 30 hexes, although some of the last marginal units of freight that do get sent may only be able to move 30 hexes (or less) due to congestion on the rail line, if the rail line is being fully utilized.

The part that you have incorrect is when you say "a level 2+ Railyard of Lvov can move that freight to a depot within 30 hexes." Instead, it can move up to 200 SMP in distance. The 30 hex rule has nothing to do with how far freight can move. Freight can be moved quite a bit further than 30 hexes in one go.

The other part that is incorrect is when you say "a level 2+ Railyard at Kiev could pick up(send train engines) that freight (rail cars) and continue to move that freight on the rail." When the freight has been sent from some depot that was within 30 hexes of Lvov reaches the area of Kiev, it simply does not pick up additional trains (railyard capacity) using the railyard at Kiev. The only trains that are used to send the freight are ones which are originating from railyards that were within 30 hexes of the starting point of the depot from which the freight is being sent.



Yes, I have been shown the error of my way of thinking. The biggest item was that when the freight en-trains it stays entrained the whole time for the 200 SMPs. That is why we have the community here for people to help each other. Thank you.

Now learning all this I still have my ideas of something different to try on the depot placement.




Beethoven1 -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (1/31/2022 11:17:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Yes, I have been shown the error of my way of thinking. The biggest item was that when the freight en-trains it stays entrained the whole time for the 200 SMPs. That is why we have the community here for people to help each other. Thank you.

Now learning all this I still have my ideas of something different to try on the depot placement.


From that response and from reading the rest of the other thread, it looks to me like we now have the same understanding.

This is a difficult thing to understand, as there are a lot of details to the logistical system and some significant parts of the terminology don't have the obvious intuitive meaning (similarly to how national "morale" does not refer to morale, but instead to training levels of soldiers).

And yes, it is good that the community can have this discussion, and the fact that we have had it will now hopefully help other players who read this thread and the other one.

[sm=Cool-049.gif]




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (1/31/2022 11:21:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Yes, I have been shown the error of my way of thinking. The biggest item was that when the freight en-trains it stays entrained the whole time for the 200 SMPs. That is why we have the community here for people to help each other. Thank you.

Now learning all this I still have my ideas of something different to try on the depot placement.


From that response and from reading the rest of the other thread, it looks to me like we now have the same understanding.

This is a difficult thing to understand, as there are a lot of details to the logistical system and some significant parts of the terminology don't have the obvious intuitive meaning (similarly to how national "morale" does not refer to morale, but instead to training levels of soldiers).

And yes, it is good that the community can have this discussion, and the fact that we have had it will now hopefully help other players who read this thread and the other one.

[sm=Cool-049.gif]


Yes, it is good & thank you for your comments and Loki too for his comments. Both of which are invaluable. Yes, the freight system is pretty in-depth.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (1/31/2022 11:22:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Yes, I have been shown the error of my way of thinking. The biggest item was that when the freight en-trains it stays entrained the whole time for the 200 SMPs. That is why we have the community here for people to help each other. Thank you.

Now learning all this I still have my ideas of something different to try on the depot placement.


From that response and from reading the rest of the other thread, it looks to me like we now have the same understanding.

This is a difficult thing to understand, as there are a lot of details to the logistical system and some significant parts of the terminology don't have the obvious intuitive meaning (similarly to how national "morale" does not refer to morale, but instead to training levels of soldiers).

And yes, it is good that the community can have this discussion, and the fact that we have had it will now hopefully help other players who read this thread and the other one.

[sm=Cool-049.gif]


Yes, it is good & thank you for your comments and Loki too for his comments. Both of which are invaluable. Yes, the freight system is pretty in-depth.


And hopefully others can benefit from this discussion here and on the linked thread many posts previously.




Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (2/1/2022 12:05:03 AM)

Super interesting discussion peeps! I agree with the most recent consensus.

Just to apply that to Stamb's example and to relate it to the priority system.

Lets say for the sake of the example that Berlin can send out 10k freight and that Lvov and Kiev can both send/receive 5k, and also that because of the way that freight adds more to rail usage the further it is from its starting point (and following on from that the fact that the higher the rail usage the larger the SMP cost) that Berlin can only send 2.5k direct to Kiev. Lets say that when set to priority '3' a depot will only seek 80% of what it could potentially take. Finally, for the sake of the example lets say that Lvov and Kiev start 'T1' with no freight stored.

Firstly how would that work if you had Lvov and Kiev set to priority 4?

On T1 Berlin would send 5k to Lvov and 2.5k to Kiev
On T2 (and on following turns) Berlin would send the same. As Lvov is set to the same priority as Kiev it wouldn't send any freight up the line. So Berlin would be sending out a total of 7.5k freight a turn from this point. Lvov would be receiving 5k a turn (and stockpiling it) and Kiev 2.5k a turn.

Alternatively what would happen if you had Lvov at 3 and Kiev at 4?
On T1 Berlin would send 4k to Lvov and 2.5k to Kiev.
On T2 (and on following turns) Berlin would send the same amounts. Lvov would send 2.5k to Kiev. So Berlin would be sending out 1k less each turn, Lvov would only be increasing its stockpile by 1.5k each turn but Kiev (closest to the front line) would be receiving 5k a turn.

So in that basic example what you are doing is trading 'inefficiency' in terms of the total freight leaving the NSS eastwards for getting more freight to the front line each turn.

From a campaign perspective, I'd suggest that the balance you are trying to strike as Axis in 1941 is between getting enough freight to the front line so that you can make the required progress in the short term and ensuring that enough total freight is sent out from the NSS in the long term so that you have the stores 'on hand' in intermediate depots that you will need once the logistics go to pot in the winter.




Stamb -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (2/1/2022 8:04:45 AM)

Thank you all for your explanations. I did not realize that NSS is not working in full power all of the time, and I can not imagine why, just to artificially limit freight received?




tyronec -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (2/1/2022 9:26:18 AM)

quote:

Turn 4

Ground Phase

So playing devils advocate here & this is just a hypothetical scenario I am building based ONLY on these two level 2+ rail yards to move freight. The rest of the map does not exist for this example. Thus only Lvov and Rzeszow are my only movers. If we use the 30 hex radius model of level 2+ Railyard movement of frieght then freight can be moved to exactly the wide vertical black line. Meaning both level 2+ rail yards can contribute their capacity to get freight to that depot at that point.

If the model on the other hand is done by continuous rail hexes counted by rail hexes then both Lvov and Rzeszow can only get freight to the black circled depot location on the map.

You can see the difference between the two different possibilities based on how either the 30 hex radius or 30 hex continuous rail hex plays into the equation and thus why I am asking. This is just a simple example and can get very involved. But I have a theory and either I will fail at setting up what I am thinking or show a better optimization.





Interesting discussion but it is missing the main issue. There will be no freight going to either the black line or the black circle for quite some time because they are both far behind Soviet lines. Where is the converted track working it's way towards D'town, it has barely started yet ?
Maybe Axis can win this game with AGN and AGC but AGS looks like is a disaster.




Jango32 -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (2/1/2022 9:50:52 AM)

The Soviets can afford to lose all of Ukraine by retreating most of southern & southwestern fronts and still win the game by preventing the Axis from making any gains towards Leningrad or Moscow/Moscow's nearby VPs (Tula, Kalinin, Orel, Rzhev, Tambov, Ryazan), so I am unsure how beneficial taking the south really is outside of adding more hexes with railyard levels above 1.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (2/1/2022 12:11:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

Turn 4

Ground Phase

So playing devils advocate here & this is just a hypothetical scenario I am building based ONLY on these two level 2+ rail yards to move freight. The rest of the map does not exist for this example. Thus only Lvov and Rzeszow are my only movers. If we use the 30 hex radius model of level 2+ Railyard movement of frieght then freight can be moved to exactly the wide vertical black line. Meaning both level 2+ rail yards can contribute their capacity to get freight to that depot at that point.

If the model on the other hand is done by continuous rail hexes counted by rail hexes then both Lvov and Rzeszow can only get freight to the black circled depot location on the map.

You can see the difference between the two different possibilities based on how either the 30 hex radius or 30 hex continuous rail hex plays into the equation and thus why I am asking. This is just a simple example and can get very involved. But I have a theory and either I will fail at setting up what I am thinking or show a better optimization.





Interesting discussion but it is missing the main issue. There will be no freight going to either the black line or the black circle for quite some time because they are both far behind Soviet lines. Where is the converted track working it's way towards D'town, it has barely started yet ?
Maybe Axis can win this game with AGN and AGC but AGS looks like is a disaster.


Thank you for the post Tyronec. The post referenced was just theorizing using current map on freight I was given a lesson on. Thanks to all that helped shine the light. Yes, my rail system is far behind at the moment and could be a disaster for me in the South. We will have to see if it turns in to that in the future turns but I am slow playing the South. I just hope I can turn it around.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (2/1/2022 12:21:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

The Soviets can afford to lose all of Ukraine by retreating most of southern & southwestern fronts and still win the game by preventing the Axis from making any gains towards Leningrad or Moscow/Moscow's nearby VPs (Tula, Kalinin, Orel, Rzhev, Tambov, Ryazan), so I am unsure how beneficial taking the south really is outside of adding more hexes with railyard levels above 1.


I feel I can take Leningrad before year end. But just a feeling & I did not recon this turn so I could have a mass of screaming mad Soviets in front of me. The Center I don't have the resources there to push anything at the moment, so that is off the table & could be my demise. The South I will just have to move to contact since I don't see many Soviets in front of me.




M60A3TTS -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (2/1/2022 8:30:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec
AGS looks like a disaster.


Not quite to that level, but no doubt that by departing from the double rail, he has incurred an opportunity cost that he will be paying for the rest of the game.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (2/1/2022 11:28:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec
AGS looks like a disaster.


Not quite to that level, but no doubt that by departing from the double rail, he has incurred an opportunity cost that he will be paying for the rest of the game.



I don't feel like it is a disaster. /shrug






HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (2/1/2022 11:45:59 PM)

I used to put a disclaimer of sorts on my AAR's before and will be placing one here.

]If you follow me on this AAR please do your OWN due diligence and research the subject matter in the manual. What I say may or may not be true (to the best of my ability it will be) since I go and try all kind of odd-ball things in the game that "may" or "may not" work based on my experience. I could have something spectacular or have something that is an EPIC FAILURE, most times. Either way I am not scared to try out all my hair brain ideas no matter what the circumstances. This is one of the ways I keep the game feeling new for me, to find something that someone else hasn't. Therefore do your own due diligence and research for yourself and don't take what I am doing or saying in this AAR as "THE WAY" to do something or "GOSPEL" of the manual rules. You want someone that knows the rules inside and out then please contact by PM or Forum post to "Loki", he is the walking GURU of the rules.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (2/1/2022 11:48:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I used to put a disclaimer of sorts on my AAR's before and will be placing one here.

]If you follow me on this AAR please do your OWN due diligence and research the subject matter in the manual. What I say may or may not be true (to the best of my ability it will be) since I go and try all kind of odd-ball things in the game that "may" or "may not" work based on my experience. I could have something spectacular or have something that is an EPIC FAILURE, most times. Either way I am not scared to try out all my hair brain ideas no matter what the circumstances. This is one of the ways I keep the game feeling new for me, to find something that someone else hasn't. Therefore do your own due diligence and research for yourself and don't take what I am doing or saying in this AAR as "THE WAY" to do something or "GOSPEL" of the manual rules. You want someone that knows the rules inside and out then please contact by PM or Forum post to "Loki", he is the walking GURU of the rules.


If I have something incorrect in my AAR then by all means do what Beethoven did yesterday and correct my ways. More than happy to listen and share my EPIC FAIL so others can learn from it.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (2/1/2022 11:56:17 PM)

Turn 4

Ground Phase Leningrad

Pretty close to finished my ground movement in the North near Leningrad. They say a picture is worth a 1,000 words. I will let the reader decide their own words then. Here is the picture.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/0692F63CCA994DF19C807FE5FFE84FC3.jpg[/image]




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (2/2/2022 12:00:16 AM)

Turn 4

Ground Phase Leningrad

Oh, I forgot. Soviet bombing began again this turn and a butt load of freight drops too. Nothing major on interdiction nor hurtful on my units.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/0E354105B4B84654B6F3D735FEEED2DF.jpg[/image]




DesertedFox -> RE: I will show you fear in a handful of dust. HLYA (G) vs ZOVS (R) (2/2/2022 5:33:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Turn 4

Ground Phase Leningrad

Pretty close to finished my ground movement in the North near Leningrad. They say a picture is worth a 1,000 words. I will let the reader decide their own words then. Here is the picture.

[image]local://upfiles/53556/0692F63CCA994DF19C807FE5FFE84FC3.jpg[/image]


Now this looks very promising.



[image]local://upfiles/13414/E3FC32A949A444ED94AEF6022D9BAF10.gif[/image]




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