Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (Full Version)

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redrum68 -> Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/10/2022 12:35:14 AM)

It seems like surface fleets sink quite a lot of MM when raiding convoy lanes and seem to be very hard to engage out in the open ocean. It also burns a lot of oil for the Allies to try to chase them around and engage them. Wondering if other players have experienced the German surface fleets doing this as it seems to make surviving 1940/1941 for the British even harder.



stjeand -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/10/2022 12:38:43 AM)

It burns a lot for the Germans too...especially if they are in the middle of Russia.

I have had trouble engaging them...and sometimes catch them first try.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/10/2022 12:51:41 AM)

Use a lot of small fleets to increase their detection level. RN used half their fleet to hunt the Biz.



redrum68 -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/11/2022 9:34:02 PM)

Sure but how much MM did the Biz sink during that time? I'm seeing German surface fleets sinking 4-5 MM per turn. While the British is using 3x-4x as much oil chasing them around with a bunch of small fleets.



ncc1701e -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/12/2022 12:08:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68

Sure but how much MM did the Biz sink during that time? I'm seeing German surface fleets sinking 4-5 MM per turn. While the British is using 3x-4x as much oil chasing them around with a bunch of small fleets.


Where are you land based planes with Naval Air advancement?



redrum68 -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/12/2022 1:39:59 AM)

Nothing land based planes can do when they are out in the middle of the ocean...



ncc1701e -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/12/2022 2:15:51 AM)

LOL - if they are in the middle of the ocean, they are not on your convoy lanes. You can cover your convoy lanes in 1940/1941 with bombers except in two zones.



redrum68 -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/12/2022 3:03:31 AM)

Uh, unless I'm missing something there isn't an easy way for bombers to reach the pan america, carribbean, africa coast, or parts of the north/south atlantic near them...



stjeand -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/12/2022 12:39:29 PM)

You have to split your carriers up into 3 or 4 fleets...add in the destroyers. Keep them on the convoy lanes chasing them.
Put your BBs in another fleet. You should now have 5 fleets to hunt them down.

So long as the German fleet has to use up both movement points the sinking of MS will be lower.


NOTHING is a guarantee...takes time to find them sometimes...other times...not so good for the Germans.




redrum68 -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/12/2022 3:07:16 PM)

@stjeand - That's pretty much what I did. After several turns I only hit the German fleet once, damaging just 1 ship which would be ok except for how much oil this uses each turn. Having 3-4 small CV fleets + 1-2 small BB fleets eats up like 40-50 oil per turn. That plus oil maintenance + ground units + air units means you are chewing through any oil stockpile pretty quickly. Once you run out of oil stockpile and if you are also starting to tip below the needed MM then oil production per turn starts dropping and the situation just keeps getting worse and worse where you can then only chase them with a smaller and smaller number of fleets. If UK had more oil production then I think the gameplay would be fine but as it sits its pretty brutal if you get unlucky and don't do significant damage to the German surface fleet early on.

Question. Should you attack the German surface fleets with Allied surface fleets or CVs first each turn? Or does the order not really matter?



ncc1701e -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/12/2022 3:48:51 PM)

Important to note that I always search naval techs as Allies (Warships, Large Warships, Carrier Operations) to upgrade my ships. Are you doing the same?



redrum68 -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/12/2022 3:56:28 PM)

Unless I'm missing something, naval techs shouldn't have any impact on finding and engaging enemy fleets only how much damage you do or take if you can engage them.



ncc1701e -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/12/2022 5:14:34 PM)

In my own experience, this has an influence. But, you are right there is nothing in advancement showing it.



stjeand -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/12/2022 5:28:45 PM)

I would not waste a single resource on upping naval. It has never made a difference from what I can see.

It is completely random.

One game I played against Harry I swear it took him 4 months to successfully find my fleet running.

In my current game with Hadros...in 2 turns he had wrecked the entire German fleet...most ships had at least 3 hits each.
And in the mirror his fleet sat in position once and I could not find him with 4 attempts.
Finally 2 turns later I was able to hit a ship.


My best turn with the German surface fleet was sinking 12 MS...but that we being unmolested and able to just sit in place.
Normally as the Germans I am running around eating up German oil and sinking 3 to 6.

IF I leave the surface fleet out for all of 41...I have been down to the teens in oil as the German player which is more crippling than the UK having 0.


Seemingly random.



stjeand -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/12/2022 5:30:15 PM)

NOW understand I am not saying it is good or bad...

But in every game I have played as the Allies...I have been able to deal with the German surface fleet.



redrum68 -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/12/2022 6:00:07 PM)

Yeah, my understanding is that naval upgrades probably besides subs are hardly ever worth it. They are crazy expensive for pretty minimal unit stat gain. I think ships and the upgrades should both be made cheaper (possibly make upgrades stronger as well). But that doesn't really address the main issue here which is finding/engaging fleets and how much MM damage surface fleets can do.

I actually think the easiest adjustment that I would recommend is to just half the amount of MM damage that surface fleets do.

The other issue I think is how cheap oilers are and that there are no limitations on them which make it so the German surface fleet can stay out of port raiding every turn forever.



stjeand -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/13/2022 10:14:55 AM)

Honestly I think oilers should have to be used PRIOR to moving.

What I do as the Germans is move away from the enemy, even when out of oil, then use the supplier.

BUT I honestly do not think the MM damage is too much. I have played quite a few games...not sure what others think though.
The whole purpose is to slow the UK down. To be honest the UK has a LOT of production and if they are left unchecked Germany will likely be invaded in 41 but a pretty large force.
The BOA is to slow them down and force them to build MM and Escorts...and Germany to build some subs and send their surface fleet out to eat up their oil.

Once the US joins oil is NOT an issue for the UK at all. 2 turns and they are at 100% again. The US just needs a lot of MM to feed them.



redrum68 -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/13/2022 2:58:37 PM)

+1 for oilers need to be used before moving

I think one of the issues is how you lose production/oil at the same rate as you dip below the MM needed threshold. It instead should be percentage based not 1 for 1. As I agree that BoA should hurt UK production but it shouldn't starve them of oil as quickly in 1940/1941. Once they are starved for oil then they have almost no way to counter the surface ships where at least they can use escorts to counter subs.



stjeand -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/13/2022 3:08:51 PM)

Well it would be nicer if you could pick WHAT you want to transport on your MS. Sometimes I have 100% oil and it still brings oil leaving PP behind...and sometimes it brings PP and I REALLY need oil.


But yes I got to a point with no oil for 2 months...subs had free reign. Luckily the US joined then did a mass oil transfer to the UK and the navy began defending again. Add to that the US ships headed to sea to assist.



redrum68 -> RE: Surface Ship Convoy Raiding Too Strong? (1/13/2022 3:26:14 PM)

Yeah running out 2 months before USA joins is something you can probably live with. But if you run out earlier in 1941 then it becomes brutal. Subs aren't that big of an issue since you can still use escorts to counter them even without sub hunters but you have nothing to counter surface ships without oil so they just continue to dig your MM hole even deeper and you essentially end up in a death spiral where you are losing MM faster than you can max build them so can't do anything til USA joins.



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