RE: Feeding the March East - carlkay58 vs Soviet AI (Full Version)

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carlkay58 -> RE: Feeding the March East - carlkay58 vs Soviet AI (1/16/2022 1:40:15 PM)

T02 Cleanup:

I move the three reinforcing infantry divisions from the Berlin area towards the front. Select a division with the 'n' key enabled to show rail line usage. I then manually select a route that ignores the direct rail lines to the front (usually a fairly solid yellow line) and try to use lines that are still in the green. This will minimize the impact on the flow of freight not only for next turn but two or three turns. I manage the Reserves. I then have some work to do in moving the LW forward to support the front lines. I advance as many of the Recon Kolufts that I can and also advance some of the fighter groups. I then fly supplies forward to L'vov and Riga.

T02 Ground Losses:

A nice haul this turn as 351K Soviets are captured. If only this could be every turn.



[image]local://upfiles/35705/C42F375D09894063BE5D812337DEE41E.jpg[/image]




carlkay58 -> RE: Feeding the March East - carlkay58 vs Soviet AI (1/16/2022 1:40:46 PM)

T02 Air Losses:

LW losses are now slightly over 200 while the Soviets lose almost 300 more this turn for a total over 4.5K.



[image]local://upfiles/35705/3BE8F0514716449AAED5EFB713A6D517.jpg[/image]




carlkay58 -> RE: Feeding the March East - carlkay58 vs Soviet AI (1/16/2022 1:41:27 PM)

T02 Files:

Files are attached.





carlkay58 -> RE: Feeding the March East - carlkay58 vs Soviet AI (1/16/2022 7:52:23 PM)

T03 Supply Thoughts:

It's time to start explaining my take on Axis logistics. The supply engine in WitE2 is a further evolution of the supply engine introduced in WitW. I stumbled upon a simple system in WitW. I repaired as much rail as fast as I could and placed depots in every town or city on the rail. The depots defaulted to priority 4 and I just left them that way. And it worked. Of course, you had to worry about ports and a few other things, but trucks are abundant for the Western Allies and Allied air units are placed at just about every airbase so having a strong supply net with lots of demand from all over the map from combat units, engineering units, and airbases works best.

Things do change when we move to the Eastern Front. First trucks are not overly abundant, in fact they tend to be scarce all of the time. Second the air forces are much smaller so less supply will be needed away from the active airbases. Third is the scarcity of quality road and even just rail lines. These factors more than offset the advantage of having direct land connections to the National Supply Sources (NSS).

The supply system is a 'pull' system. Units pull supply from depots. Depots pull supplies from other depots of lesser priority and NSS. Supplies will trace routes along the easiest and cheapest rail routes so the more paths from the NSS to the depot the better it is. Supply demand is initialized from units of all types including air and engineering units. Depots also generate supply demand which helps pull more freight from the NSS towards the front lines. We want to generate as much supply demand as possible that is supported by our rail net to get the supply to where we need it.

A simple set of rules to follow are:

1. Build a depot in every city you have rail through.
2. Any depot that has a supply trace from it to a frontline unit should be set to 4.
3. Any depot that has a supply trace from it to an active airbase should be at least 3.
4. Major rail lines should then have depots set to 2.
5. Any other depot should be set to 1.

Those are general rules that will have exceptions depending on specific cases and your future plans. If you are planning an offensive in an area, then depots further back from the front should be set to 4 to max out the depots ahead of the offensive. This will give a good buildup of supply in the area close to where you will need it.

There is a method that can be used to 'pulse' supply through your supply net. Take a depot with a large railyard. Set it up to priority 4 until it is full then reduce the priority down to 2 or 3 and it will empty itself out as it sends the built-up supply down the pipe to front line depots. This is the same idea behind the above suggestions about supply build up. When the offensive starts, you dial those depots down to 3 and all of that supply is able to move to new depots behind your offensive. Unfortunately, the Axis did not do this very well at the start of the war!

Rail is fine and good for the long haul of supplies, but trucks are used to move supplies from the depots to the units. To keep truck wear and tear down you need the depots as close to the front line as possible. You also have the wagon rule that says any unit within three hexes of a depot does not use trucks. This is very important during the bad weather when trucks will breakdown all of the time. BUT many people forget that the offset to this is that units supplied by wagons will double their supply requirements. If you are having problems moving supplies to the front line making the amount you need double is not going to help you. This is an important fact to keep in mind.

Areas that you can afford and should use wagons are areas that have a good rail net and lots of built-up supplies. An excellent example is AGN. AGN gets their supplies through the Baltics with a good rail net coverage and almost entirely separate from the rail net required for AGC or AGS. With a well repaired rail net in the Baltics, you can reduce your truck requirements in the northernmost area of the front.

Areas that are a bad choice is most of AGS. There are few east-west rail lines that have to carry all of the supplies for the front. While the Crimea itself can use naval supply to supplement the rail lines almost no other part of the southern front is going to be able to keep the rail capacity up to what is needed for supply.





Stamb -> RE: Feeding the March East - carlkay58 vs Soviet AI (1/16/2022 8:41:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

T03 Supply Thoughts:
...
Rail is fine and good for the long haul of supplies, but trucks are used to move supplies from the depots to the units. To keep truck wear and tear down you need the depots as close to the front line as possible. You also have the wagon rule that says any unit within three hexes of a depot does not use trucks. This is very important during the bad weather when trucks will breakdown all of the time. BUT many people forget that the offset to this is that units supplied by wagons will double their supply requirements. If you are having problems moving supplies to the front line making the amount you need double is not going to help you. This is an important fact to keep in mind.



Wow. Super useful information [&o].
If the weather is ok and there is not enough freight in a depot in means that it is "better" (if you have some trucks in a depot) to keep units > 3 hexes from any depot which will basically double amount of freight that unit's receive in comparison if they stay < 3 hexes?




carlkay58 -> RE: Feeding the March East - carlkay58 vs Soviet AI (1/16/2022 10:02:54 PM)

Stamb: Yes. It is best to keep the depots back in good weather unless you are in one of the cases were double supply requirements will not overload your supply net.




homer82 -> RE: Feeding the March East - carlkay58 vs Soviet AI (1/16/2022 10:59:27 PM)

Carl, there have been some interesting discussions fairly recently on better managing replacements and supply by lowering Max TOE to 50% for German units except HQ and SUs, and/or setting a supply priority of 2 for infantry and 3 for motorized units (again German only). Any thoughts on this?




carlkay58 -> RE: Feeding the March East - carlkay58 vs Soviet AI (1/17/2022 12:35:35 AM)

homer82:

One of the problems with playing around with MAX TOE is that the unit will actively degrade to that point by sending elements back to the replacement pools. I really don't know if this consumes rail capacity or not. But a unit at 50% is more likely to rout, shatter, etc. if placed under stress by enemy attacks. I personally rarely modify MAX TOE (I do not tend to micromanage) but under some situations I would - a quiet sector (such as AGN) perhaps lower MAX TOE to 80% to free up replacements for more active sectors. Any reduction beyond 80% would have to be done in the late war for me. It's a personal decision and I really don't know how much that would really help overall.

Supply priority for units can vary also depending on whether this is an active sector or not. I typically keep infantry armies at 2 -> if the units do not need the supply they will not request it so no real problems there. I typically keep motorized units at supply priority of 4 during 41. I will reduce that to 3 when the weather starts to be bad but motorized MPs are very dependent on supply levels and that is too important to play with. Again this is my personal opinion. If you do lower supply priorities then you are also reducing the demand for supplies from the NSS and possibly reducing the flow of supplies to the front. My system has been to maximize (within reason) demand for supplies in the front line to try and maximize the flow to the east. These things are something that can be played with once the weather turns bad.




GFelz -> RE: Feeding the March East - carlkay58 vs Soviet AI (1/17/2022 3:06:29 AM)

Thanks for the write up. This is perfect timing for me as I only recently picked up WitE2.

quote:

I then have some work to do in moving the LW forward to support the front lines. I advance as many of the Recon Kolufts that I can and also advance some of the fighter groups. I then fly supplies forward to L'vov and Riga.


How are you doing this at the end of a turn? How do I see the airbases to move foward?




loki100 -> RE: Feeding the March East - carlkay58 vs Soviet AI (1/17/2022 6:43:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

homer82:

One of the problems with playing around with MAX TOE is that the unit will actively degrade to that point by sending elements back to the replacement pools. I really don't know if this consumes rail capacity or not. But a unit at 50% is more likely to rout, shatter, etc. if placed under stress by enemy attacks. I personally rarely modify MAX TOE (I do not tend to micromanage) but under some situations I would - a quiet sector (such as AGN) perhaps lower MAX TOE to 80% to free up replacements for more active sectors. Any reduction beyond 80% would have to be done in the late war for me. It's a personal decision and I really don't know how much that would really help overall.

...



yes, any elements shedded, either to adapt to TOE or be replaced (this happens with tanks most often) is an additional cost on your logistics system

from some digging, I think the system is the unit gets its freight allocations (& this will include replacements) and that is what you see on the full supply tab. Then the swaps/removals kick in and that will drop your available fuel/supply by a bit, this is usually minimal but its another usage at a time when you want to minimise this so as to increase the flow west-east




Stamb -> RE: Feeding the March East - carlkay58 vs Soviet AI (1/17/2022 8:35:48 AM)

If division is set to 100% TOE and get to battle which leaves it at 80% non damaged TOE. Then in the next logistic phase it will try and grab replacements to match 100% which means less supplies/ammo, right?




carlkay58 -> RE: Feeding the March East - carlkay58 vs Soviet AI (1/17/2022 1:53:44 PM)

GFelz:

I will try to highlight this in my next turn (which would be turn 4) and show how it operates in detail there.

Stamb:

Yes, but as far as I know replacements are requested after supplies so not really. It does put more stress and strain on the supply net but it is after the important supply gets through. There is a cap on how much rail capacity will be grabbed during the logistics phase which would include both supplies and replacements. I THINK this cap is in the 60 to 75% range but I am not sure.




M60A3TTS -> RE: Feeding the March East - carlkay58 vs Soviet AI (1/17/2022 3:41:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

homer82:

One of the problems with playing around with MAX TOE is that the unit will actively degrade to that point by sending elements back to the replacement pools. I really don't know if this consumes rail capacity or not. But a unit at 50% is more likely to rout, shatter, etc. if placed under stress by enemy attacks. I personally rarely modify MAX TOE (I do not tend to micromanage) but under some situations I would - a quiet sector (such as AGN) perhaps lower MAX TOE to 80% to free up replacements for more active sectors. Any reduction beyond 80% would have to be done in the late war for me. It's a personal decision and I really don't know how much that would really help overall.

Supply priority for units can vary also depending on whether this is an active sector or not. I typically keep infantry armies at 2 -> if the units do not need the supply they will not request it so no real problems there. I typically keep motorized units at supply priority of 4 during 41. I will reduce that to 3 when the weather starts to be bad but motorized MPs are very dependent on supply levels and that is too important to play with. Again this is my personal opinion. If you do lower supply priorities then you are also reducing the demand for supplies from the NSS and possibly reducing the flow of supplies to the front. My system has been to maximize (within reason) demand for supplies in the front line to try and maximize the flow to the east. These things are something that can be played with once the weather turns bad.



I agree with you, When the heavy mud hits and your trucks start to feel the strain of distance from depots, and you know winter is around the corner, is this the army with 50% TOE that you want to go into a blizzard with? Sure, you can start to raise the TO&E then, but time is short and you need supplies to dig into your level 2 forts. Manpower reductions just makes that all the more difficult. I tried using some unit supply priority 1 in a game as some suggested and found it totally unworkable for me anyways. When blizzard hits, you want full strength divisions dug in at level 2 so fatigue is generally less, and so are your attritional manpower losses. Lower manpower losses mean lower replacement freight required that leaves more winter supplies for other purposes.




carlkay58 -> T03 (1/17/2022 10:19:25 PM)

T03 OOB:

Soviet forces are dipping below 3M men and only 75K in Reserve so things are looking about right for Turn 3.



[image]local://upfiles/35705/C28B8AC309B24DCE8034B3C24305C53A.jpg[/image]




carlkay58 -> RE: T03 (1/17/2022 10:19:57 PM)

T03 Production:

Everything is looking pretty good here. Up to 14.1K trucks in repair - an increase of 5.3K. This will increase as distances get longer and weather gets worse.



[image]local://upfiles/35705/B83546B2D9CB4A67B5E7E3C6F35BD39D.jpg[/image]




carlkay58 -> RE: T03 (1/17/2022 10:20:29 PM)

T03 Freight:

Everybody is getting good supplies as there is a +9K between Need and Received. The distances are not that long yet and the weather is still good so things should be good.



[image]local://upfiles/35705/7EB7D56C7F5340EBBFDE77AA0D380347.jpg[/image]




carlkay58 -> RE: T03 (1/17/2022 10:20:52 PM)

T03 Trucks:

Things here are also looking good. Captured Soviet trucks are now up to 6.8K. Everything helps in the truck pool.



[image]local://upfiles/35705/AE278082D9354206A1291DF2FEE291D4.jpg[/image]




carlkay58 -> RE: T03 (1/17/2022 10:21:34 PM)

T03 Air Phase:

I change all of the Air Groups to Auto Upgrade in the Commander's Report. I then change the locations of the Recon Directives to cover what I need to know. 45 aircraft are lost during the Recon directives.



[image]local://upfiles/35705/BCE21871AE35440FA75B05C3D73E73E0.jpg[/image]




carlkay58 -> RE: T03 (1/17/2022 10:22:01 PM)

T03 Supply Net North:

AGN is almost completely being supplied from depots created after the start of the war. AGC is not as well supplied by that but it is also the deepest penetration into the Soviet defenses and still has a lot of units in the rear taking care of pockets.



[image]local://upfiles/35705/2C5B3097470C4E839FC22A4C7AFBE0C9.jpg[/image]




carlkay58 -> RE: T03 (1/17/2022 10:22:47 PM)

T03 Supply Net South:

The only true advancement of the Axis supply net is L'vov. You can see just how many units are being supplied by that depot.



[image]local://upfiles/35705/595A2DAD1F07484E85341E1A1D46C7BC.jpg[/image]




carlkay58 -> RE: T03 (1/17/2022 10:23:31 PM)

T03 Some Supply Details:

The Berlin NSS states that a total of 88K freight was shipped out from it. Prague NSS shipped out 59K. Vienna NSS shipped out 33K. This is a total of 180K freight drawn out of the NSS.

L'Vov received 9.5K freight. The leading depot for AGC 2nd PG FBD (Pruzhany) received 4.4K. 2rd PG FBD leading depot (Shumskas) received 1.1K. Vilnius (split this between AGN and AGC) received 7.5K. Kaunas received 7.1K. Riga received 5.9K - all of it by sea.

By monitoring how much freight moved out of the NSS and what is arriving at major and leading depots we can see how the movement of the freight will change as we progress in the war.





carlkay58 -> RE: T03 (1/17/2022 10:24:03 PM)

T03 AGN:

4th PG starts to move on Pskov while also trying to seize as much rail as possible while captured rail may be automatically converted without needing repair. Between the 4th PG FBD, the 18th Army's RAD units, and the captured rails Riga is now connected to Daugavpils and north towards Pskov.



[image]local://upfiles/35705/5BFEF0B0F6354F7EAD855374EA830B6F.jpg[/image]




carlkay58 -> RE: T03 (1/17/2022 10:25:11 PM)

T03 AGC:

3rd PG is at the outskirts of Smolensk, isolating Vitebsk and a few small pockets on its way there. 2nd PG does not quite make Smolensk so there is still a gap in that pocket but has isolated Mogilev and continued to the east of the Dnepr River (sound historical?). 9th Army is rushing to the north to take over the line linking AGC and AGN beyond Polotsk. 4th Army is rushing east to form a line containing the Pripyet Marshes. 2nd Army is now active and is reducing the last of the Bialystok Pocket.



[image]local://upfiles/35705/E2A3388659AF42A6B9544CCC3C411D0F.jpg[/image]




carlkay58 -> RE: T03 (1/17/2022 10:25:37 PM)

T03 AGS:

1st PG forms a large pocket to the east which can easily be broken and reformed next turn. The 6th and 17th Armies work on sealing the large pocket in the center. 11th Army and the Rumanians move eastward trying to catch up to the retreating Soviets. I have transferred all of the Hungarian units and SUs to the Hungarian Mobile Corps. This frees up the VIII Hungarian Corps to take control of some RAD units. I transfer two RAD units from 18th Army to AGS.



[image]local://upfiles/35705/086A05CB464941B49ADFE6F175360A0B.jpg[/image]




carlkay58 -> RE: T03 (1/17/2022 10:26:06 PM)

T03 Cleanup:

The usual cleanup with checking the Reserves Theater Box, moving up some AOGs, I create the Koluft 2 AOG this turn, and some other clean ups.

T03 Ground Losses:

218K losses to the Soviets this turn. My AFV losses are at 138 which is worrisome but I have to use the panzers actively until the infantry can catch up.



[image]local://upfiles/35705/472F6D6543394EC08B3DDB27F94A629E.jpg[/image]




carlkay58 -> RE: T03 (1/17/2022 10:26:34 PM)

T03 Air Losses:

Not the best exchange for the LW as it losses 105 aircraft to 342 Soviet. Some heavy Air to Air combats this turn.



[image]local://upfiles/35705/0519DC08229E48CD9C16BFA24D14298E.jpg[/image]




carlkay58 -> RE: T03 (1/17/2022 10:27:19 PM)

T03 Files:





homer82 -> RE: Feeding the March East - carlkay58 vs Soviet AI (1/17/2022 11:27:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

homer82:

One of the problems with playing around with MAX TOE is that the unit will actively degrade to that point by sending elements back to the replacement pools. I really don't know if this consumes rail capacity or not. But a unit at 50% is more likely to rout, shatter, etc. if placed under stress by enemy attacks. I personally rarely modify MAX TOE (I do not tend to micromanage) but under some situations I would - a quiet sector (such as AGN) perhaps lower MAX TOE to 80% to free up replacements for more active sectors. Any reduction beyond 80% would have to be done in the late war for me. It's a personal decision and I really don't know how much that would really help overall.

Supply priority for units can vary also depending on whether this is an active sector or not. I typically keep infantry armies at 2 -> if the units do not need the supply they will not request it so no real problems there. I typically keep motorized units at supply priority of 4 during 41. I will reduce that to 3 when the weather starts to be bad but motorized MPs are very dependent on supply levels and that is too important to play with. Again this is my personal opinion. If you do lower supply priorities then you are also reducing the demand for supplies from the NSS and possibly reducing the flow of supplies to the front. My system has been to maximize (within reason) demand for supplies in the front line to try and maximize the flow to the east. These things are something that can be played with once the weather turns bad.



I agree with you, When the heavy mud hits and your trucks start to feel the strain of distance from depots, and you know winter is around the corner, is this the army with 50% TOE that you want to go into a blizzard with? Sure, you can start to raise the TO&E then, but time is short and you need supplies to dig into your level 2 forts. Manpower reductions just makes that all the more difficult. I tried using some unit supply priority 1 in a game as some suggested and found it totally unworkable for me anyways. When blizzard hits, you want full strength divisions dug in at level 2 so fatigue is generally less, and so are your attritional manpower losses. Lower manpower losses mean lower replacement freight required that leaves more winter supplies for other purposes.


Great points gents. What I take from your comments 1) any potential supply/reduced rail usage benefit gained by Max 50% TOE is likely offset by excess TOE going back west to the pool over the very same rail and 2) the strength reduction to forces come winter makes this a non-starter from the beginning. That said, this leaves adjusting supply levels as the tool of choice. So much to consider. Thanks for your insights!




carlkay58 -> T04 (1/20/2022 1:19:55 PM)

T04 OOB:

The Soviet manpower has shot up to 3.4M. This reflects the reserves being called up by the Soviet army but they are there and I need to reduce their number as quickly as possible.



[image]local://upfiles/35705/BEFDF7781AA843E4ADA63EFECC1109CC.jpg[/image]




carlkay58 -> RE: T04 (1/20/2022 1:20:42 PM)

T04 Production:

My supply situation with supplies in units is doing very well. There are also 12K vehicles in the pool so there is a good buffer here.



[image]local://upfiles/35705/E9906EDEA563493F9B40F4368DBA8B7C.jpg[/image]




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