TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (Full Version)

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huda0816 -> TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/14/2022 5:10:55 PM)

I am wondering which system is more realistic. In this other game, it is recommended to have a 4:1 ratio. So 4 destroyers/light cruisers for 1 capital ship. In WITP:AE the ratio in the starting fleets is more like 2:1. So I am wondering which game portrays this aspect of naval combat better.



JeffroK -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/14/2022 6:44:39 PM)

A lot depends on what forces you have available and what is the makeup of your TF.
My CTF have (in 1943) 2-3 CV or CVL, 1 BB, 2-4 CA/CL and around 12 DD, sometimes extra BB's or CA/CL's.

There is no magic formula, you use the forces available ensuring you have enough ASW, AA etc support.



Zovs -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/14/2022 7:41:35 PM)

Personally I own both and WITP-AE is more realistic IMO.



Maallon -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/14/2022 9:42:17 PM)

Yeah, I don't think it will get much more realistic than WITPAE, at least for a pure strategy game.
If you want to have it more realistic you will likely need to switch to a simulator game.
Without knowing the other game's title I can't give you any further comparison.





Zovs -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/14/2022 9:50:19 PM)

I think he is referring to WarPlan Pacific which is a:

WarPlan Pacific is a corps/division level wargame that simulates World War 2 campaigns using land, naval, and air forces to represent each of the countries involved in the conflict. There are economic and political aspects of the game that allow flexibility while keeping the play balanced.

Each hex is 80km, 50m, per hex. Each turn is 2 weeks.



huda0816 -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/14/2022 10:24:56 PM)

Sorry for my obscure post. I did not write down the name of the other game as it is from a different publisher and I do not know if it is allowed to mention it. It is not WarPlan Pacific.

I know for sure that WITP:AE is more realistic. I just wanted to know if a ratio of 4 screens to 1 capital ship is realistic (Which is the optimum ratio in that other game) or it is more like 2:1 or 3:1.



Platoonist -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/14/2022 10:28:50 PM)

Hard to say without knowing which title it is.



Zovs -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/14/2022 10:55:08 PM)

I think it would be allowed, I don’t see why it would not. Nothing wrong with comparison.



Zovs -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/14/2022 10:57:53 PM)

As far as computer games on the Pacific I can only think of Matrix’s two games and Shrapnels War Plan Pacific.



Zovs -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/14/2022 11:00:09 PM)

Looks like WPP is based off an old board game by AH called VitP which is a Beer & Pretzel game so no comparison here.



Platoonist -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/15/2022 12:27:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Looks like WPP is based off an old board game by AH called VitP which is a Beer & Pretzel game so no comparison here.


I believe War Plan Pacific is far more complex than Avalon Hill's old VitP (Victory in the Pacific). It has logistics, convoys, weather and ground combat which VitP never had except in the most abstract sense.



jdsrae -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/15/2022 12:59:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: huda0816

I am wondering which system is more realistic. In this other game, it is recommended to have a 4:1 ratio. So 4 destroyers/light cruisers for 1 capital ship. In WITP:AE the ratio in the starting fleets is more like 2:1. So I am wondering which game portrays this aspect of naval combat better.


The starting task forces in WITPAE are historically accurate, so show the tactics of 1941.
It is up to the player to adjust task force composition as more ships arrive.

ADM Mitscher said: "The ideal composition of a fast-carrier task force is four carriers, six to eight support vessels and not less than 18 destroyers, preferably 24. More than four carriers in a task group cannot be advantageously used due to the amount of air room required. Less than four carriers requires an uneconomical use of support ships and screening vessels."

By “support vessels” in this context means fast BB and CA. So that’s a DD ratio of about 2:1, if you have enough DDs.
WITPAE has a CVTF ship limit of 25, so you can’t quite get to ADM Mitscher’s ideal 30-36 ship TF, but something like 4x CV, 4x CA, 16x DD is a similar ratio. The extra 8x DD could be in separate ASW “task units” that move with the CVTF.



huda0816 -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/15/2022 10:49:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

ADM Mitscher said: "The ideal composition of a fast-carrier task force is four carriers, six to eight support vessels and not less than 18 destroyers, preferably 24. More than four carriers in a task group cannot be advantageously used due to the amount of air room required. Less than four carriers requires an uneconomical use of support ships and screening vessels."


This is the quote which is used to justify the 4:1 ratio in that other game as an optimum. Is there something like (100%) screening efficency in WITP:AE?



BBfanboy -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/15/2022 11:52:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: huda0816

I am wondering which system is more realistic. In this other game, it is recommended to have a 4:1 ratio. So 4 destroyers/light cruisers for 1 capital ship. In WITP:AE the ratio in the starting fleets is more like 2:1. So I am wondering which game portrays this aspect of naval combat better.

Having read through the thread, I am still wondering - where does this 4:1 ratio recommendation come from? Or the 2:1 ratio.

AFAIK, the player can use whatever set of escorts he wants/has available. There were many times in RL and in the game when there were not enough escorts available but the commanders decided to go ahead anyway. E.G. - Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal saw 2 BBs with only four escorting DDs and 3 of those were taken out at the start of the battle. No cruisers to keep the Japanese DDs and cruisers at bay. But Adm. Lee forged on and won the battle with the one functioning ship he had left.
I think it was the speed with which Washington disposed of Kirishima that broke the Japanese will to press the attack. Up to that point they had been winning.

So where does that leave the quest for the mythical "realism"?



Maallon -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/15/2022 1:46:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: huda0816


quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

ADM Mitscher said: "The ideal composition of a fast-carrier task force is four carriers, six to eight support vessels and not less than 18 destroyers, preferably 24. More than four carriers in a task group cannot be advantageously used due to the amount of air room required. Less than four carriers requires an uneconomical use of support ships and screening vessels."


This is the quote which is used to justify the 4:1 ratio in that other game as an optimum. Is there something like (100%) screening efficency in WITP:AE?

There is no value for screening efficiency I would be aware of.
There are different takes on TF Compositions and if you ask 10 player what the ideal TF Composition is, you will get 11 answers. [:D]
Often the limitation you have is the amount of assets you have at your disposal.
There is no single best composition or must-do here, only different tactical and strategical considerations.

Also, according to the forum rules, the "blatant advertisements for non-Matrix Games products" is prohibited. If you are just discussing a non-Matrix game it shouldn't be an issue.

edit: There are no absolutes in WITPAE, everything is chance based so even a carrier that is escorted by 24 modern destroyers can still be torpedoed by a sub. The chances are just very slim.



jdsrae -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/15/2022 6:19:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: huda0816
I know for sure that WITP:AE is more realistic. I just wanted to know if a ratio of 4 screens to 1 capital ship is realistic (Which is the optimum ratio in that other game) or it is more like 2:1 or 3:1.


This website provides info on historical task force numbers.
http://pacific.valka.cz/forces/tf8.htm#wake1

This is TF8 on 7 Dec 41 for example, which is the same as turn 1 in the game.

CTF VAdm William F Halsey
CV Enterprise
CA Salt Lake City, Northampton, Chester
DD DesRon6 Balch
DesDiv11: Gridley, Craven, McCall, Maury
DesDiv12: Dunlap. Fanning, Benham, Ellet




sstevens06 -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/16/2022 7:55:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae


quote:

ORIGINAL: huda0816
I know for sure that WITP:AE is more realistic. I just wanted to know if a ratio of 4 screens to 1 capital ship is realistic (Which is the optimum ratio in that other game) or it is more like 2:1 or 3:1.


This website provides info on historical task force numbers.
http://pacific.valka.cz/forces/tf8.htm#wake1

This is TF8 on 7 Dec 41 for example, which is the same as turn 1 in the game.

CTF VAdm William F Halsey
CV Enterprise
CA Salt Lake City, Northampton, Chester
DD DesRon6 Balch
DesDiv11: Gridley, Craven, McCall, Maury
DesDiv12: Dunlap. Fanning, Benham, Ellet




jdsrae, Thank you for sharing the website, looks very useful.



KenchiSulla -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/18/2022 7:15:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: huda0816


This is the quote which is used to justify the 4:1 ratio in that other game as an optimum. Is there something like (100%) screening efficency in WITP:AE?


Talking about Hearts of Iron 4 perhaps?

There might be a magic number but we wouldn't know it. TF composition is based on mission, expected threats and available ships. If it is a carrier TF then the main objective would be launch and recover aircraft. Main objective of any other ship (then carrier) in the TF would be to protect the carrier from air attack, submarines and surface attack. So having one carrier, a fast battle ship and two heavy cruisers in the TF would not lead to 4 x 4 destroyers... Six to eight destroyers might be sufficient, other destroyers could be used for ASW or in a separate SAG..

You would need to play around with different compositions to get a feel for it and adjust it for your personal style, enemy capability @ that moment in game and preference...

I wouldn't recommend only four destroyers to a carrier... Unless you have no choice



Sardaukar -> RE: TF screen size - WITP:AE vs another WW2 game (1/19/2022 2:57:01 AM)

Some real-life CV TF compositions:

http://pacific.valka.cz/forces/tf58.htm



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