What game is this dude playing (a steam review) (Full Version)

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king171717 -> What game is this dude playing (a steam review) (1/17/2022 6:34:03 PM)

(I didnt write this review)

By Dorian Gray (some dudes review of this game on steam)

"Had been a big fan of Gary Grigsby past work, but don't let all the screens of game detail fool you. This game is one of the biggest scams in the industry. All the supposed detailed combat mechanics, unit equipment and stats is nothing but smoke and mirrors, with very little substance implemented behind the scenes.

Gary really missed the boat on picking a professional development shop for this title.

User's manual is a convoluted mess, riddled with many errors and inaccuracies. Air combat system is a trip through fantasy land. Ground combat is made overwhelmingly difficult through a complete lack of ability to estimate combat outcomes through meaningful unit counter info. (counter info presented is generally garbage)

Basically, you can expect to spend many, many hours just trying to figure things out through trial & error.

There are an overwhelming number of aspects of the game that are undocumented and nobody knows how it really works. Anti-aircraft fire, aircraft elevation, artillery fire, movement of freight, or even how long it takes to repair a factory - none are clearly defined, and that is just the beginning.

Game is changing practically on every patch to such a degree they don't know what to expect or how it will impact the game mechanics. They put patches out, and wait for feedback to further "tweak" their algorithms in the hopes of approximating something quasi-feasible. However, their development process appears to be nothing but "trial & error" as well.

You have very little control over logistics, production or even most aspects of combat. As far as production resources, yeah, they are in the game. But nothing really has any impact on the direction of the war. Ploesti can be bombed into dust and it won't have any effect on German fuel stockpiles. Crazy.

So, again, all this game detail - a grand illusion.

Editor has no formal documentation, no UI scaling and is unusable on hi def monitors.

Publishers push steam users to go to their third party forum for support. But really this is to control the narrative and shut-down any freedom of expression. They demean and belittle players looking for help or who question the mechanics. Very toxic community.

All the fanboi user reviews were done by people who had hardly played it. Each turn can take 4-6 hours to complete - how many turns do you think they actually got through before their review deadline?

Game has been out for over a year and is still a convoluted mess.

After 200+ hrs, I strongly do not recommend and advise to just stay away from this one. You will thank me later."





I sorry but a lot of what he says is made up. I dont understand how people find this review as being the most helpful review of the game on steam.



Teo41_ITA -> RE: What game is this dude playing (a steam review) (1/17/2022 6:47:35 PM)

I went on Steam because I could not believe what you just wrote. Sadly is all true. I just hope people won't get discouraged by this one negative review, as all the others that I saw seem pretty positive!



loki100 -> RE: What game is this dude playing (a steam review) (1/17/2022 7:23:00 PM)

I think its the person who was posting here as SauronII - similar style and obsessions



oldMarinePanzer -> RE: What game is this dude playing (a steam review) (1/17/2022 7:33:28 PM)

I don't think this is true at all, I think that this is the greatest war game ever developed, by the most qualified and experienced computer war game developers. This negative review is the accurate publishing of "counterintelligence" and "misinformation"! This person has taken all the issues and twisted them around to make everyone on this board feel bad! I understand "freedom of speech", I served my country for 10 years and put my life on the line so this individual can voice his/her opinion, but I DO NOT agree with it in any shape or form! I now read their review and I love this game even more :-)



blond_knight_new -> RE: What game is this dude playing (a steam review) (1/17/2022 8:09:57 PM)

I like the game, and dont think it a convoluted mess of smoke and mirrors. But to be honest he does have some valid points.

There is no formal editor documentation. In addition so far youre unable to lock the data. This will (I believe) have to be added before they can release DLC's. And I know theyre working on it or will soon.

The games balancing does change with every patch. So much so that it requires a "living manual".

The "living manual" is where you should look for current info since the original manuals or hardbound book manuals are now only good to teach the overview and concepts of play.




EwaldvonKleist -> RE: What game is this dude playing (a steam review) (1/17/2022 8:16:05 PM)

Probably some Pelton reincarnation.



Stamb -> RE: What game is this dude playing (a steam review) (1/17/2022 9:13:41 PM)

I like this game very much, but some points of this review are valid or partially valid:

1. "Air combat system is a trip through fantasy land."
If we count flak problems then it is true, problems with flak losses for multiple patches (I did not test it in 0.15)

2."Basically, you can expect to spend many, many hours just trying to figure things out through trial & error."
This is also true, but it can be also considered as a plus.

3. "There are an overwhelming number of aspects of the game that are undocumented and nobody knows how it really works. Anti-aircraft fire, aircraft elevation, artillery fire, movement of freight, or even how long it takes to repair a factory - none are clearly defined, and that is just the beginning."
As a player I really do not know how it works, but maybe as a player I do not need to know it. But freight movement is worth a whole new topic...

4. "Game is changing practically on every patch to such a degree they don't know what to expect or how it will impact the game mechanics. They put patches out, and wait for feedback to further "tweak" their algorithms in the hopes of approximating something quasi-feasible. However, their development process appears to be nothing but "trial & error" as well."

This is also true to a degree. Automated tests would help to catch most of the issues that can reoccur during adjustment of a game. But maybe game engine or size of a team/tasks priorities does not allow to do so.
As a software developer myself I know that it is pain in the ass to write it, but in a long term run it pays off.

5."You have very little control over logistics, production or even most aspects of combat. As far as production resources, yeah, they are in the game. But nothing really has any impact on the direction of the war. Ploesti can be bombed into dust and it won't have any effect on German fuel stockpiles. Crazy."

True. Fuel for Axis is irrelevant. Once its drops to 200-250k it will not go down. I have a topic somewhere with this. People were pretty upset about it.
I wanted to test if taking armament centers like D,Z town, Stalino and nearby cities will lead to a less production of Soviet equipment. I am afraid that it will be same as with fuel. Which is a HUGE downgrade in comparison to wite 1.
I saw one guy playing PvP wite 1 on youtube. He was playing Soviets and was talking about fabrics and evacuation all the time. "Do I evacuate now and lose X amount of weapon production for some time, or not? If not - it will allow me to build more weapons that I need right now. But if Axis takes this city - I am going to be in a trouble." I was amazed by such a details.
Then I bought wite 2 and discovered unlimited fuel for an Axis. Probably it is the same with armament points. If this is true - this is the biggest turn off for me in this game.



actrade -> RE: What game is this dude playing (a steam review) (1/17/2022 9:28:48 PM)

This reminds me of the "damned if you do, damned it you don't" saying. If the devs work hard to keep improving the game, a guy like this complains. If they just made it and quit supporting it, he'd complain. With regard to some of Stamb's points, there is indeed a lot going on "under the hood," but the devs have made a real attempt to help automate some of it (AI assist for air war/depots for example) while still allowing those that want full control to do so. The manual (I got the hardcopy) is one of the best I've ever seen, so no idea what this dude is talking about. I would strongly bet this "reviewer" may have played 200 hours, but he'd have been better off taking the time to read and LEARN what the manual says...betting gave it the cursory glance and jumped right in.



Stamb -> RE: What game is this dude playing (a steam review) (1/17/2022 9:37:36 PM)

It was my review for that review. As I told - I like this game very much. And I am really thankful for a game devs for the ongoing support.

I have also no problems with a manual. Except one - it's to big to remember all of it :D



DrHiramTemple -> RE: What game is this dude playing (a steam review) (1/17/2022 11:23:59 PM)


I wanted to offer some counterpoints to a couple of these:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

4. "Game is changing practically on every patch to such a degree they don't know what to expect or how it will impact the game mechanics. They put patches out, and wait for feedback to further "tweak" their algorithms in the hopes of approximating something quasi-feasible. However, their development process appears to be nothing but "trial & error" as well."

This is also true to a degree. Automated tests would help to catch most of the issues that can reoccur during adjustment of a game. But maybe game engine or size of a team/tasks priorities does not allow to do so.
As a software developer myself I know that it is pain in the ass to write it, but in a long term run it pays off.



while it's true that it's annoying the way certain issues keep cropping up, in all fairness, this is largely happening in the beta releases. Using a beta is by definition agreeing to be a guinea pig for the game devs, so i think we need to remember what we're all signing up for when we rush to download the latest installer or exe. the "full" releases have been much more infrequent, and certainly aren't as meta changing (so far anyways) as some other companies' game patches *cough* modern total war games *cough*


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

5."You have very little control over logistics, production or even most aspects of combat. As far as production resources, yeah, they are in the game. But nothing really has any impact on the direction of the war. Ploesti can be bombed into dust and it won't have any effect on German fuel stockpiles. Crazy."

True. Fuel for Axis is irrelevant. Once its drops to 200-250k it will not go down. I have a topic somewhere with this. People were pretty upset about it.
I wanted to test if taking armament centers like D,Z town, Stalino and nearby cities will lead to a less production of Soviet equipment. I am afraid that it will be same as with fuel. Which is a HUGE downgrade in comparison to wite 1.



I think this is actually due to a quirk with the metrics screen and production system. basically, the order of events in game appears to be *game generates production* -> (other game stuff) -> *game updates graphs* -> (other game stuff) -> *game distributes production*. I've noticed this most blatantly with soviet manpower. I find that the manpower production screen/graph will flatline around 200k-180k, however, it will never be pulled lower than this, despite having numerous soviet formations lacking manpower and on refit (this isnt a case of lacking equipment either-- the moment a manpower event drops these formations will immediately max out on rifle squads). I suspect the same thing is happening with axis fuel stocks-- 200-250k mark is probably just the weekly production, and units and cities are in fact receiving less than an optimal qty of fuel. Someone would have to check/test this to be sure though.




mikael333 -> RE: What game is this dude playing (a steam review) (1/17/2022 11:32:34 PM)

I would agree with the last point. If fuel and oil and armament points have no real impact it takes something away from the experience. I tend to look what resources, industry, man power a conquered or to be conquered town or city has. And it feels like a big accommplishment to deny these resources to the enemy. It takes away from the magic if all this is an empty illusion.
Otherwise I would say, the game is not flawless but what in this world is? What comes even close as an Eastern Front simulator?



Stamb -> RE: What game is this dude playing (a steam review) (1/18/2022 8:36:18 AM)

This is a topic about Axis fuel. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5107581

Fuel production was around 166k (at that time I did not know how to insert multiple images into a post, so you have to open the links between [image] tag).
Initially by looking onto a graph I thought that I will run out of fuel even before spring/summer offensive. And with infantry only you will not go far, as I thought pazners/motorized divisions will have low MP.
It's not true. As I wrote - you will not run out of fuel. No matter what you do. That is why I was super upset that I have access to such a graphs but they are meaningless.

In some topic, can't remember where, somebody wrote that once Soviet manpower goes < 150k it will stay there and very low amount of people will go into units.



DrHiramTemple -> RE: What game is this dude playing (a steam review) (1/18/2022 2:14:29 PM)

I'm still willing to bet that these are display issues rather than the game arbitrarily generating resources. for soviet manpower I'mm fairly certain that the game's order of operations is: game generates graphs, game draws manpower down to 0, game generates additional production. (maybe not in that temporal sequence, but in the same relative order). the active manpower for the soviets on any given turn when flatlining seems to cleanly line up with active production+returning wounded, and the same phenomenon occurred in WitW for the germans, albeit at a much lower value (i think around 10k?)-- my assumption has always been that the numbers we see are simply the pre-use values.


But admittedly, this is still a bunch of speculation on my part. I'll run some tests and report back on my findings. my current thought is to make a custom map that removes all fuel production for the axis, and see how that affects things (assuming we can do this... haven't really messed with the editor yet).

Now it could very well be that the axis can simply draw down on civilian consumption and avoid any impact on troop movements-- this i would agree is an issue with gameplay/realism, but is slightly different from what i understand is being claimed.



Joel Billings -> RE: What game is this dude playing (a steam review) (1/18/2022 4:00:12 PM)

Manpower (and I think other strategic production) gets produced toward the end of the logistics phase, so after replacements are given out. When you hit rock bottom, most/all of what you are seeing in the pool is the current turn's production of manpower. As for fuel, I know in the past I have seen test games where fuel has run out and units are not receiving enough to maintain their MPs. This has happened in late 42 and then again late in the war. If this isn't the case now, then we'll look into it.



Joel Billings -> RE: What game is this dude playing (a steam review) (1/18/2022 5:14:54 PM)

As far as I can tell from my latest tests, there is still a chance that the Germans will run out of fuel in late 42, and they will run out of fuel eventually in late 44 or 45 as their oil and syn fuel areas are overrun and/or bombed by the Western Allies.



Feltan -> RE: What game is this dude playing (a steam review) (1/18/2022 5:38:25 PM)

It is the tone of the Steam comment that is grating, not any individual comment.

Haters are going to hate.

Regards,
Feltan



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