Cover and Concealment ? ? ? (Full Version)

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DELTA32 -> Cover and Concealment ? ? ? (7/19/2001 4:29:00 PM)

Although 6.1 was supposed to tweak terrain benefits, it seems as though sneaking from the backside of concealment (woods, building, jungle) is no more advantageous to keeping yourself undetected than waltzing down the streets of New York City with the Penn State Marching Band ! Why is it that this most basic of concealment tactics means nothing in SPWAW ? One should NOT be detected by overwatching enemy units as you "sneak" into a concealment hex from the rear. Even more so when your lone sniper crawls through 150 meters of jungle, only to come into firing position but, before he can pull the trigger, the bad guy's HMG opens up on him sending him to Valhalla ! Your opinions, your views ? Delta 3-2 "People sleep peacably in their beds at night because rough men are willing to do violence on their behalf." -George Orwell-



Colonel von Blitz -> (7/19/2001 4:42:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by DELTA3-2: [QB]Your opinions, your views ?[QB]
I've noticed the same thing and it is sometimes very annoying to realize that no matter what you do, enemy units always spot your men and open fire, even if you just tried to sneak up on enemy units. Of course, sometimes lady fortuna just isn't with you, but occasionally it feels like there is no actual cover... :( Speking of lady fortuna, hands up everyone who has lost 3 Panthers to enemy 75/76.2mm AT-guns firing at ranges over 30 hexes and with hit probability 7% or less ?? ;) ;) (Unlucky) Colonel von Blitz



panda124c -> (7/19/2001 8:01:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Colonel von Blitz: I've noticed the same thing and it is sometimes very annoying to realize that no matter what you do, enemy units always spot your men and open fire, even if you just tried to sneak up on enemy units. Of course, sometimes lady fortuna just isn't with you, but occasionally it feels like there is no actual cover... :( Speking of lady fortuna, hands up everyone who has lost 3 Panthers to enemy 75/76.2mm AT-guns firing at ranges over 30 hexes and with hit probability 7% or less ?? ;) ;) (Unlucky) Colonel von Blitz
Ah you have meet the Motherlands Tank snipers. And to think I complain about the enemy being able to sneak up on me without being seen. :D



Larry Holt -> (7/20/2001 1:07:00 AM)

To sneak up you have to move only one hex per turn. Are you trying that? If you move more, you probably will be detected. I can sneak up to within about 4 hexes out in the open this way. If you want to you can turn down the spotting values in the preferences.



john g -> (7/20/2001 2:00:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Holt: To sneak up you have to move only one hex per turn. Are you trying that? If you move more, you probably will be detected. I can sneak up to within about 4 hexes out in the open this way. If you want to you can turn down the spotting values in the preferences.
To expand on this, if your unit has any suppression it is easier to spot so rally it down to 0 suppression first, also it pays to have higher experiance, if you have an edge on experiance you can sneak right up to the enemy and they will never see you



Redleg -> (7/20/2001 2:20:00 AM)

Also, how successful a unit is in sneaking up is determined by the relative quality of the troops involved. A high quality unit will be able to sneak up on a lower quality unit. They will also be able to see lower quality units who are attempting to sneak up on them. That is why some tanks can see infantry from 2-4 hexes away even in cover... while others cannot.



DELTA32 -> (7/20/2001 8:02:00 AM)

Gentlemen.....Infantry squads have a hard time "sneaking" up, but can move quite quietly. and when you move through jungle, from the rear of the concealment, believe me...the idea of self-preservation is very present. So, to have an enemy unit sight you from 5+ hexes away and blast you to kingdom come, is a major problem. Remember...a sniper should always be able to move, every hex, as though he is sneaking. It should be ONE of the advantages of a sniper, but it's not...they get blasted too. Lastly, I don't like fooling with the preference settings. To me it is a "cheat" of the game design and more importantly you have to coordinate with your opponent to + or - anything. Gentlemen...there is a serious problem in game play in this area. Be nice if someone who address it. Delta 3-2



Tombstone -> (7/20/2001 8:17:00 AM)

I wouldn't call it a "serious problem in game play." Come on, the game is great... it can't do everything perfect. If it was never dealt with the game would still be pretty awesome wouldn't it? People can try to explain it away, but the best response is that fully modeled reality just is not a supported feature of the game. Heh heh... I do agree that if you can maneuver in some fashion as to reduce the probability of being detected it would be cool, and you can. Moving one hex at a time makes it less likely to be seen... Tomo



panda124c -> (7/20/2001 6:49:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by DELTA3-2: Gentlemen.....Infantry squads have a hard time "sneaking" up, but can move quite quietly. and when you move through jungle, from the rear of the concealment, believe me...the idea of self-preservation is very present. So, to have an enemy unit sight you from 5+ hexes away and blast you to kingdom come, is a major problem. Remember...a sniper should always be able to move, every hex, as though he is sneaking. It should be ONE of the advantages of a sniper, but it's not...they get blasted too. Lastly, I don't like fooling with the preference settings. To me it is a "cheat" of the game design and more importantly you have to coordinate with your opponent to + or - anything. Gentlemen...there is a serious problem in game play in this area. Be nice if someone who address it. Delta 3-2
As your troops gain experience they will be better able to spot enemy troops and be better at remaining unspotted. Since new troop begin with the base experience they are easy to sneek up on. The AI seems to be able to by more experienced troops than your in the beginning of a WWII Campain game. Also remember that if you move over one hex a turn you loose much of the benift of the terrian you are in. Use overwatch, set you MG in good defensive cover, woods on top of a hill with rough terrian is very good, with a field of fire that covers the approaches your infantry is going to use, then move your infantry one hex a turn. Watch for where any fire comes from then use the Z key to fire at that hex is you do not see any enemy. Using a rolling barrage of 81mm mortars in front of your infantry also helps as it suppressed the enemy and make them easier to spot. Hope this helps.



DELTA32 -> (7/20/2001 8:46:00 PM)

Well guys....it's not a matter of troop quality, experience, time in the field, rolling 81mm mortar barrages, moving ONE hex at a time....it's a quality or lack of it in the game. This is absolutely something that takes away from the tactical pleasure of the game. If any of you had ever played Avalon Hill's Squad Leader series, you were undetected coming into a concealed/covered hex if you moved in from the rear. Seems to me this shouldn't be too difficult of a tactic to render in SPWAW. However, I suppose I should remember this is a free game and thus a GREAT game and not criticize the negatives of the game. Delta 3-2



gdpsnake -> (7/20/2001 9:05:00 PM)

My guys always get seen and blasted. Strangely, I never see the AI guys who blast away and then disappear. I never see the AT guns as they gleefully blow away my armor and NEVER reveal their position. If my AT guns were only so good but as soon as they shoot, BAM! every gun in the enemy arsenal opens up and creams them. I run my tanks and infantry into an enemy hex and next turn, they dissapear? Can't find them until they kill me, again. Of course, he always see's me. Enough, you get the idea. Is this a gameplay trick to improve computer versus player gameplay? Also, does anyone else find it hard to believe that the 2 pdr AT gun is SO DEVESTATING even at ranges of 15+ hexes? They are also INCREDIBLY accurate, getting hits every shot! Talk about first shot kills! I thought the gun had problems (even documented on the MC documents) that said it was poor solid shot weapon. Doesn't behave that way!



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