RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (Full Version)

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Hardradi -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/22/2022 9:39:32 PM)

This thread reminded me to check on something.

It seems you can evacuate factories out over an interdicted rail line (coloured yellow) and maybe even when there is no rail route out of the location at all.

Does this terminology mean that the factories were successfully evacuated?
[image]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/919044747715289150/934563652407812176/unknown.png[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/22/2022 9:52:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

This thread reminded me to check on something.

It seems you can evacuate factories out over an interdicted rail line (coloured yellow) and maybe even when there is no rail route out of the location at all.

Does this terminology mean that the factories were successfully evacuated?
[image]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/919044747715289150/934563652407812176/unknown.png[/image]


You can have the rail cut and still will get out.



Hardradi -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/22/2022 11:33:37 PM)

That's a shame.



Hardradi -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/22/2022 11:34:27 PM)

.



Stamb -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/23/2022 12:59:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

I want to perform my test to check if production of different kinds of weapons will go down or not.

Let's imagine following situation.
When fabrics are operating at full power (enough supplies/armament points and all other stuff that is needed) every turn Soviet produces:
- 10k rifles
- 500 howitzers

Will production of a weapons itself (not armament points) go down or Soviets still will be able to produce 10k rifles, 500 howitzers like before only because they have virtual pool of stockpiled armament points (which graph goes only up and up in every game, even vs an AI), if cities with this factories will be captured ahead of a historical date?
This is a question.


I did this test. Unfortunately I was right. Weapons are build from a generic armament pool. It means that even if you lose major production cities ahead of schedule it means NOTHING in terms of production.

My testing setup:
- playing as human for the Axis and Soviet side, all settings at 100.
- run 7 turns as Axis and Soviets without doing anything, just checking what is produced

Every turn result is almost the same, deviation is few weapons, and looks like this (turn 7 with all factories):
[image]https://www.linkpicture.com/q/t7.png[/image]

Then I play again as Axis and Soviet, but this time I was advancing as fast as I can.

On turn 7 I was able to capture Leningrad, Rzev, Kalinin, Kaluga, Tula, Kiev, Orel, Kursk, Kharkov, Krivoy Rog, Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhye, Stalino and nearby cities with production.

Map on Soviet turn 8:

[image]https://i.imgur.com/rChAehJ.jpg[/image]

[image]https://i.imgur.com/e6L24ce.jpg[/image]

[image]https://i.imgur.com/iM3cG05.png[/image]

And production screen (compare it with a previous production screen, when no factories were lost):
[image]https://i.imgur.com/dsxhBco.png[/image]

And armament points went down only by 20k. It means 1680/20 = 84 turns before Soviets run out of them. Some fabrics will restore and as a result it means that Soviets never run out of them and in a real game player will be not able to capture cities that I mention above anyway, at least by turn 8.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/z6rH1Tq.png[/image]


Weapon production must be based on a factories that are on a map (maybe few of them are of a map) and should be reduced accordingly if this factories are damaged/moved/captured ahead of a historical date.

Saves + screens:
https://ufile.io/lgfy97cx



Hardradi -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/23/2022 2:26:42 AM)

Armaments produced has gone down from 203k to 120k. Armament factories are down from 1017 to 609. About 40%. This looks like it has been reduced accordingly to me.

You do not have a realistic burn rate for Armaments. If you had been naturally collapsing the pockets and bringing in reinforcements, replacements, etc, what would have happened to the Soviet Armaments pool?

I think you are only just scratching the surface here. There are many points to consider beyond this.



Stamb -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/23/2022 10:35:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

Armaments produced has gone down from 203k to 120k. Armament factories are down from 1017 to 609. About 40%. This looks like it has been reduced accordingly to me.

You do not have a realistic burn rate for Armaments. If you had been naturally collapsing the pockets and bringing in reinforcements, replacements, etc, what would have happened to the Soviet Armaments pool?

I think you are only just scratching the surface here. There are many points to consider beyond this.

In real game, where Soviet is not moving troops out of the way, there is no way you can capture this cities so fast. I wonder if there are any saves where Soviets have problems with weapons production, cuz of a factories loss.



Stamb -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/23/2022 2:05:51 PM)

Even in AARs people are showing losses/manpower pool, production screen, but nobody is showing armament points. Why? Cuz there is no point of doing so. You will not run out of them.



ShaggyHiK -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/23/2022 2:21:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

The evacuation of industry from Leningrad generally took place along Lake Ladoga.



Jango32 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/23/2022 2:31:03 PM)

I am fairly sure that even with the Lake Ladoga region under Axis control, "evacuation" will happen regardless.



ShaggyHiK -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/23/2022 2:52:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

I am fairly sure that even with the Lake Ladoga region under Axis control, "evacuation" will happen regardless.

This happens because the evacuation of industry is a "conditional" mechanic.

That is, if the German army approaches the city, it is conditionally considered that the authorities will take actions aimed at evacuating in any case, and the success of the action depends on the time of the approach of the German army, if the German player is ahead of the historical date, then the evacuation is not effective, given that the move does not happen in 1 day, but stretched over 1 week, then it is impossible to assume that the Soviet government has no time to react.

The German player has a serious advantage in the future, for example, when entering Moscow, partially the factories whose evacuation was planned, but not carried out, are not evacuated and burn down, the same applies to partially factories in the occupied territory, as soon as the Soviet army liberated the territory, the process of restoring the production of which began does not occur in the game.



Jango32 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/23/2022 3:03:21 PM)

The only condition for the mechanic is whether it evacuated historically or not as far as I am aware. It doesn't take into account if it's possible to evacuate in the present situation: whether any rail connection exists or has existed for the last <x> turns between the evacuating hex and the evacuation destination hex, or if the area has been isolated for <x> turns in a pocket of <y> size.

I am fairly certain that you could cut off all of Sverdlovsk's rail connections and evacuation will still happen to Sverdlovsk; or any other city if not Sverdlovsk.



malyhin1517 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/23/2022 3:55:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

This happens because the evacuation of industry is a "conditional" mechanic.

That is, if the German army approaches the city, it is conditionally considered that the authorities will take actions aimed at evacuating in any case, and the success of the action depends on the time of the approach of the German army, if the German player is ahead of the historical date, then the evacuation is not effective, given that the move does not happen in 1 day, but stretched over 1 week, then it is impossible to assume that the Soviet government has no time to react.

Similarly, the termination of the railway connection between the Caucasus and Moscow will not lead to a lack of fuel, because the transportation of resources in the game is also conditionally performed without checking the capacity of the railway.



Stamb -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/23/2022 4:08:04 PM)

You will not run out of fuel anyway, but it is another story..



ShaggyHiK -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/23/2022 4:57:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517
Similarly, the termination of the railway connection between the Caucasus and Moscow will not lead to a lack of fuel, because the transportation of resources in the game is also conditionally performed without checking the capacity of the railway.


Are we not considering transport routes along rivers in this case?



malyhin1517 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/23/2022 5:08:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK


quote:

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517
Similarly, the termination of the railway connection between the Caucasus and Moscow will not lead to a lack of fuel, because the transportation of resources in the game is also conditionally performed without checking the capacity of the railway.


Are we not considering transport routes along rivers in this case?


There are no river delivery routes in the game! Only sea and railway. And the conditional delivery of oil consumes railway points.



Hardradi -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/23/2022 8:54:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

Armaments produced has gone down from 203k to 120k. Armament factories are down from 1017 to 609. About 40%. This looks like it has been reduced accordingly to me.

You do not have a realistic burn rate for Armaments. If you had been naturally collapsing the pockets and bringing in reinforcements, replacements, etc, what would have happened to the Soviet Armaments pool?

I think you are only just scratching the surface here. There are many points to consider beyond this.

In real game, where Soviet is not moving troops out of the way, there is no way you can capture this cities so fast. I wonder if there are any saves where Soviets have problems with weapons production, cuz of a factories loss.


Here is one from a game. Bit of a dip at the start and then a slow climb. With your destruction rate it looks possible that the graph would be in decline. The other point with the pool is its not actually on the map like for example oil. So no chance to capture it and no stress on the rail system to evacuate it.

[image]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/919044747715289150/934926332171812974/unknown.png[/image]



Hardradi -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/23/2022 8:56:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

The evacuation of industry from Leningrad generally took place along Lake Ladoga.


You mean by rail or road?



ShaggyHiK -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (1/23/2022 9:40:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi
You mean by rail or road?

I mean both the road on the ice and the evacuation by barges on the lake. Depending on the period.
That is, for evacuation as a process, the presence of a railway connection is not required, but to speed up the process, it is better, of course, with railway transport.



Hardradi -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (2/10/2022 4:57:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

The current system has Soviet factories removed to the east having a delay in time before they begin to operate again at full strength factory size.

If the Axis captures the city BEFORE the historical evacuation two things happen. The first is that the delay is longer and will not be ready until well after the historical evacuation would have been. I have seen delays as long as 120 turns for captured factories. The other penalty is that the factory size is also reduced - sometimes down to 1. The size of a factory grows slowly over time until it hits a maximum size. So early captured factories will be out longer than historical evacuation and be smaller.

The Axis are no longer able to totally destroy a factory. Why? Because the Soviets would have built a new factory to replace it. Just because the single factory producing equipment X is captured and destroyed by the Axis does not mean that the Soviets would then abandon the project because the factory was destroyed. They would rebuild the factory from scratch - which is what the current game process does. It is a longer process to do so and that is reflected in the game.



carlkay,

As an example if you took out the two T-34 level 23 factories at Kharkov, say turn 12 (they evac turn 16), are you saying they may potentially not come back online at all for 120 turns (2 1/3 years)?

Or do you mean, in your 120 turn situation, it comes back online before this and only reaches its new 'reduced' maximum capacity by turn 120?



carlkay58 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (2/10/2022 9:53:20 AM)

Hardradi -

Yes a delay of 120 is 120 turns before it is active again. At that time it is at its reduced cap and must expand from that reduced cap to reach full capacity. So essentially it is out of the major part of the war. I believe you can repair the damage on a factory while it is in delay so when its delay is up it is fully repaired but at the decreased capacity.



Beethoven1 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (2/10/2022 12:11:01 PM)

The Kharkov T-34 factories are going to have a delay of like 13 turns or so (depending on when exactly they are evacuated), not 120. It will hurt Soviet T-34 production slightly, but not that much, probably a couple hundred lower. This is with manual evacuation. The damage is higher with forced evacuation if the Soviet player does not manually evacuate it (I tested it a while ago, but not recently):

[image]https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/919044747715289150/941290163622006804/unknown.png[/image]



Denniss -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (2/10/2022 12:59:17 PM)

The capacity would not change even for forced transfers due to early capture, that was WitE 1 with a different production system



carlkay58 -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (2/10/2022 1:41:59 PM)

Beethoven1 - the 120 delay is an extreme that I noted in one game I played as the Soviets when Leningrad fell. The T-34 plant there went east and had a 120 turn delay, damage of 75, and a capacity of 2. I used it previously in the discussion to illustrate that there IS a penalty for losing factories that were never lost or before their historical evacuation.

Denniss - I swear I noted a capacity reduction, but it was a while ago and I could be wrong. My saves were deleted in a software reset.



AlbertN -> RE: Fuel And Armaments Campaign Proposal (2/10/2022 1:52:40 PM)

Ideally a T1 Evacuation with a spared assignment of a Sapper Regiment to the destination city can well work out IF the ADmin Point to assign the construction unit can be spared!



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