Another complimentary appraisal (Full Version)

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Staufenberg44 -> Another complimentary appraisal (1/20/2022 10:58:02 PM)

I really have to compliment the designer (and his significant Other I gather) for their work in producing this. I've been playing wargames since I was 15 or so (I'm 69) and also spent years researching and creating large scale complex scenarios for TOAW that were published as well as put online by myself gratis for years; but I have to say the thing that grabs me about this is the perfect choice of scale to model things, both in WP and WPP. It is eminently strategic, not terribly hard to get into, at least enough to play it fairly competently early on in the learning curve (which is where I am tbh), but it also offers operational, even tactical complexities, that will make any wargaming grognard drool.

I predict this series will really take off as more players discover it (on Steam in particular) and share with their gaming friends, as I am as we speak. It is also encouraging to see the designer so *proactive* (not a word I like to use but there you go) in responding to issues that arise in such a complex game, and this bodes well for future developments of both WP and WPP.

One question I have: are you contemplating taking this base into modern times say, WAR PLAN COLD WAR or somesuch, with the NATO Alliance vs the USSR and/or China. This would be a challenge I am sure. Or even a similar scenario more recently unfolding....

Again, well done and your work is much appreciated out here. [sm=happy0065.gif]



BJGeary -> RE: Another complimentary appraisal (1/21/2022 2:17:36 AM)

Any operational/strategic game set in postwar times will have to contend with nuclear weapons. Ignore them and the game becomes too ahistorical and unrealistic. Include them and things become ... messy. That said, I'd love to see more games built upon the upcoming WP2 engine.



generalfdog -> RE: Another complimentary appraisal (1/21/2022 3:51:22 AM)

agreed I have purchased most strategic level ww2 games that have came out on computer and this is by far the best!



Staufenberg44 -> RE: Another complimentary appraisal (1/21/2022 3:53:01 AM)

To BJGeary:

Agreed in the main, but it was just a thought and a question: what next?



Staufenberg44 -> RE: Another complimentary appraisal (1/21/2022 3:53:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: generalfdog

agreed I have purchased most strategic level ww2 games that have came out on computer and this is by far the best!


I do agree.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Another complimentary appraisal (1/21/2022 1:06:20 PM)

You guys made my day. I designed the game for wargamers not specifically for profit. The money I made is just the reward. I don't like cookie cuttering games out there. Thus you will never see me make a 4x game. Other companies have done such a fantastic job with those I can't do it better. But wargames of depth? Yes, I feel I can make a good one.

I want to do WP2 right now but I want to get it right. So the fantasy strategy comes first to iron out the bugs in the new engine. Don't ask about it as no one knows what I am doing. Just that it is different than others and not 4x. I will say that very likely I will test out small sea zones in the fantasy game. Then when WP2 is going to be made decide which system is best to represent naval aspects of WW2. But I will have 2 proven systems available to choose from.

Always thinking forward.



Nirosi -> RE: Another complimentary appraisal (1/21/2022 2:33:38 PM)

quote:

I designed the game for wargamers


And it shows! You took the best from the like of WiF and ETO/AETO (among others I guess) and the result is so fun to play.



BJGeary -> RE: Another complimentary appraisal (1/21/2022 2:52:45 PM)

WPE/WPP has essentially taken the best ideas of the SC series and improved upon them. Very similar research system. Better maps and much better logistics system. Then toss in useful specialties and we have a definite winner. I bought WPE via Steam early last year, and WPP when Matrix put it on sale for 50% off (a sweet bargain!). Having played both now, and seen the excellent job that Al (and his wife) has done with the game's outstanding UI along with how responsive Al is to fans of his games I can promise that I'll be buying ANY new games that he creates.



ago1000 -> RE: Another complimentary appraisal (1/21/2022 8:33:52 PM)

+1 with all the above.

I too started playing war games at 15 and now at 57 enjoy playing both WPP and WPE. These games remind me of old style board games Avalon Hill produced that I grew up with and loved playing over and over again. It will be interesting to see the style this future fantasy game will take, as the only fantasy game I'm familiar with is Dungeons and Dragons.



BJGeary -> RE: Another complimentary appraisal (1/21/2022 9:06:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

+1 with all the above.

I too started playing war games at 15 and now at 57 enjoy playing both WPP and WPE. These games remind me of old style board games Avalon Hill produced that I grew up with and loved playing over and over again. It will be interesting to see the style this future fantasy game will take, as the only fantasy game I'm familiar with is Dungeons and Dragons.


I started playing AH's Third Reich back in 1975, and I spent countless hours playing it solo (hotseat) and against a friend. WPE comes closest to replicating it. Except that WPE is so much better!

As for the fantasy game using the upcoming WP2 engine, consider how Fantasy General evolved out of Panzer General. (Google them)



Remington700 -> RE: Another complimentary appraisal (1/21/2022 10:36:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BJGeary

quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

+1 with all the above.

I too started playing war games at 15 and now at 57 enjoy playing both WPP and WPE. These games remind me of old style board games Avalon Hill produced that I grew up with and loved playing over and over again. It will be interesting to see the style this future fantasy game will take, as the only fantasy game I'm familiar with is Dungeons and Dragons.


I started playing AH's Third Reich back in 1975, and I spent countless hours playing it solo (hotseat) and against a friend. WPE comes closest to replicating it. Except that WPE is so much better!


Agreed. Brings back good memories of pulling my hair out (when I had some) while digging through the Third Reich rule book. The board game feel of WPE and WPP is very strong.



GiveWarAchance -> RE: Another complimentary appraisal (1/26/2022 12:07:10 AM)

I have only played Okinawa and China 1937 so far cause I am liking the China war very much.
I was surprised at this game when I became immersed in my war and I really like the combination of production and combat so we have many choices to mix it up and good for replayability.

I think most people are playing PBEM, but I have found the AI is very smart going by how tenacious the Chinese are at counterattacking my units and wiped them out sometimes. Most probably people don't notice this cause they only play China in the beginning, but it gets much harder as time goes on and they get stronger and organized so I had to rotate my infantry and tanks to avoid them getting wiped out too often cause of the relentless Chinese attacks. It is rare to see very strong AIs in games. I saw how Strategic Command World at War and the CS:Europe game also have a very strong AI which is comforting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BJGeary

Any operational/strategic game set in postwar times will have to contend with nuclear weapons. Ignore them and the game becomes too ahistorical and unrealistic. Include them and things become ... messy. That said, I'd love to see more games built upon the upcoming WP2 engine.


There is a cold war game on par with this nice Warplan game here. It is only combat and fighting and not messy or confusing at all.... other than the carnage of burnt out vehicles and craters that result from combat. Some scenarios have a tactical nuke available (which I never used cause I don't like nukes) but you are meant to rely on conventional warfare.

https://www.slitherine.com/game/flashpoint-campaigns-red-storm-players-edition



BJGeary -> RE: Another complimentary appraisal (1/26/2022 12:42:33 AM)

I've played all of the SC games and WPE/WPP have better AI. The AI in SC is fairly easy to beat. But it's not nearly as stupid as the AI in the HOI series games. Four generations of HOI and their team still cannot code an AI a tenth as good as the lone developer of this game, Alvaro Sousa, has done.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Another complimentary appraisal (1/26/2022 2:49:16 PM)

Hubert has done a good job with his A.I.. It does some clever tricks. I'd say mine is slightly behind his. But his game plays different too.

In defense of HOI they have a game on a global map. That is harder to code for. Also due to the # of possible outcomes the play testing involved with that size of game is immense.

WP2 will be both maps + a little more. But I am not making the whole globe for A.I. processing reasons and because places like South Africa or South America really don't matter. If the Axis get to the point they are able to invade those locations..... well it's clear who won the game lol.

An invasion America scenario is not out of the picture though.



BJGeary -> RE: Another complimentary appraisal (1/26/2022 3:17:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa
In defense of HOI they have a game on a global map. That is harder to code for. Also due to the # of possible outcomes the play testing involved with that size of game is immense.

My beef with the HOI AI isn't its shortcomings strategically. I expect that, since it's extraordinarily difficult to make an AI 'smart' enough to challenge a human's creativity and sneakiness. What bothers me is that the HOI AI will often make really stupid decisions tactically.

WPE used to abandon perfectly good defense lines in the UK to retreat and cluster around important cities, thereby endangering those cities when holding the line with infantry that was already dug in would have been the better move. Ditto with leaving ports undefended. I complained about that a year or so ago and you fixed it so the AI is now much better defensively than it used to be.

The AI in WPP, when playing as Japan for example, is very good at defending ground. OTOH, it still does stupid things like leave a gargantuan fleet in a port (like Rabaul) vulnerable to Allied air strikes. I can forgive the AI allowing one such attack, but then it should move the fleet someplace safer. But, no, I've seen the AI leave that fleet in the port until after a period of months of constant raids by a half-dozen Allied bomber groups I've sunk well over 150 transports and the troops that were aboard them, along with all sorts of naval combat vessels. The WPP naval AI is very aggressive and dangerous. But defensively it's still pretty dumb. This is why I really enjoy the China scenario. Since it's almost entirely a land-based campaign the AI presents a really good challenge without doing a lot of stupid things. [;)]

Thanks for letting me know this. I probably missed it before. I will add this kind of awareness to this patch for it.



GiveWarAchance -> RE: Another complimentary appraisal (1/26/2022 7:47:01 PM)

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