RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (Full Version)

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Nirosi -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (1/30/2022 1:27:32 PM)

quote:

add to that they 20% efficiency per attack


I thought that was corrected? No?



stjeand -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (1/30/2022 1:55:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nirosi
I thought that was corrected? No?



Looks like you only loose 10% so better.


The real problem end up around testing...as I have said before. It takes probably a month if not 2 to perform a test.
And that is one test...
You need to test thing like.

Build all inf corps till logistics is full.
Or Build a bunch of armor
Or Build more air to defend
Or save PP and build tons of armies on the turn of attack

To many options to find the best for surviving.


NOW to add...

The real Barbarossa started 3 turns after clear weather. So the Germans get a 3 turn jump and to be honest...easily at least one more turn because cold had no effect on their troops...and there is always a cold turn in 41.

That means 4 extra turns to attack the weak Russians...

I wonder if that would not be the case if they had to attack in the second half of June.

Would want to test that.

BUT no Axis General would ever wait if they do not have too. More turns the further you get.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (1/30/2022 4:11:53 PM)

I ran the 1941 scenario opening moves and I saw some of the issues.

So I think in this next patch I will do this. Experience will stay the same...BUT overruns will change.

Currently the overrun is 7:1+ BOOM they blow up ugly.

So I changed the run that units get overrun on 7:1+ AND their strength needs to be 1/3rd of their max health or less AFTER combat.

This means 3 corps attacking a division will probably blow it up. 3 corps attacking a half army..... maybe, but 3 corps attacking a full corp or army no.

Lets see how that works. A lot of the complaints are units blowing up when at full health and it is something I noticed.



sveint -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (1/30/2022 4:30:39 PM)

It's unfortunate that the massive problems with the Soviets go unrecognized.

Such a shame, WarPlan is a fantastic game.



sveint -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (1/30/2022 4:31:31 PM)

(double post)



Nirosi -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (1/30/2022 5:26:53 PM)

quote:

Currently the overrun is 7:1+ BOOM they blow up ugly.


It should be 7vs1 according to manual, but since last patch (or the one before?) it is very often lower than that. 5vs1 and 6vs are common. And I noticed at least twice a 4vs1.



ncc1701e -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (1/30/2022 5:32:36 PM)

Yes an example at 4:1 has been highlighted here:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5136976

There must be something.



stjeand -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (1/30/2022 8:46:50 PM)

Any update as to why the Russian units have 1 less artillery and 1 less defense?

That really adds up.

And again...the Russians used the most artillery in the war out of any country.
Perhaps "corps" should be affected but Armies should have the artillery and defense normalized?



Lascar -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (1/31/2022 8:09:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

The manpower very slight increase was due to Germany literally running out of manpower in 1944.

Ok so here are some questions for those having trouble.
#1 do you max out lend lease to Russia from the Allies? (very important)
#2 do you have some strategic bombing game in play as the Allies? (this eats up resources and possibly air sups)

These two are very key.


I have tried various combinations of trying to optimize the Red Army in preparation of the Axis invasion.

I always max out lend lease to Russia.
Seldom have much in the way of strategic bombing unless the Russian front has stabilized.

Disband up to half of the corps size infantry and use the PPs to build new 30% experience corps with 1940 antitank advancement. Have in place at least 50 infantry Corps, half at 30% Exp.

Disbanding the 20% mech corps and use the PPs to build 10 1940 Heavy Armor 30% Tanks Corps.


Also have at least 1000 PPs at the start of Barbarossa to devote to building Infantry armies at the start of Barbarossa.




stjeand -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (1/31/2022 10:27:22 AM)

Al,

Is there any chance to get a few added Russian scenarios with changes to test...similar to the small fleets scenario?
I do not know how much that adds to the update but...

I have found many reluctant to test custom scenarios. No offense to anyone, just if we do not test it will never change.
For example(s):

Change 1 to test...Russian infantry changed. Large corps are 36 str, small corps are 24 str, divisions are 12 str...This allows the Russians to actually build units when manpower is lower rather that being stuck only able to build 36 armies. Change all starts small corps to small armies and the convert to small corps...a minor bonus. Up Russian artillery and defense to normalize with rest of the countries.

Change 2 to test...Up Russian starting unit experience back to 30%. Move Russian armor move to 7 to 1941 rather than 42.


This would make small changes that players could test and see if they like it and comment.

Again example...

I dislike small fleets as the Allies LOVE it as the Axis. It is a HUGE bonus for the Axis player as it heavily favors Uboats and LBA...small fleets can't go anywhere near the coast. Their sub defense is now 1/4 or less if there is any at all...and their AA is the same.
As the Axis I would think about bombing a fleet near the coast because it might have 4 or 5 heavy ships in it that would hammer my air. But with small fleets never even thing about it...bomb away as losses are 1 or 2 planes instead of 3 to 6. As for subs...wow...just don't leave port near them. I have sunk multiple CVs and DDs in testing with minimal return damage.
NOW there is a HUGE issue in that ships can patrol the convoy lanes defending in raider mode...um no. Show me how ships trying to avoid battle with subs are able to defend convoy lane from subs? IF on a convoy lane "helping" patrol for subs they should not be able to be in raider mode and try to avoid subs.
That makes NO sense at all.
Either you are hunting or you are raiding. There is no way for a ship to raid and help their convoys vs subs.

I will put my soap box away.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (1/31/2022 4:52:35 PM)

It already takes me considerable time to update all the scenarios in WPE. The changes have to be small or it can completely throw off the balance.

I have changed the overrun rule as I noticed something was off. I added an addition condition of the unit being 1/3rd strength or less. If it gets an overrun result AND is over 1/3rd strength it instead retreats. This should really help the Russians. I also managed to change the reinforce button to no reinforce/reinforce/reinforce+upgrade which also should help balancing the entire game from start to end.

The dynamics of the game were that Russia gets killed early, and if they survive Germany gets kill in 1944 usually. It needs to be balanced to where the game goes to 1945.

As players exploit the system changes are made. Newer players against strong opponents will get plowed.

The 1st game I played Hadros it went to 1945. Now because he exploits everything and plays so many games I have a hard time keeping up.

So I am going to start with these internal changes in this patch. Then we go from there. As with anything it takes time especially for a game that has a dynamic time line and battlefield. France was easy to balance, Russia + late game harder.

So right now I am devoting this whole week to getting the patch done ASAP. Which I normally don't do. But enough stuff has been brought up.

If this doesn't work then I would consider making a side scenario with the Russian changes. I am hesitant because if the Russians survive 1942 they become a powerhouse rolling over the Germans in 1944. I suspect for the same reasons.

So change in reinforce/upgrade, change in overrun/retreats



stjeand -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (1/31/2022 5:36:37 PM)

Well right now Russia can never be a powerhouse because they lose to much manpower to be effective. While that is not a horrible thing...the Germans can lose the same and not be affected which throws the game off. Basically have to find the balance where Germany and Russia are in a stalemate for 42.
But that is not at all possible because Russian armor can't move to do anything. I think they need their 7 move pushed forward.

I understand small changes. Each can break a major amount which is why I thought other scenarios for testing might be better...
The more people would play them and could say this is good this is bad.

Thanks for your time.




redrum68 -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (1/31/2022 7:07:26 PM)

quote:

So I am going to start with these internal changes in this patch. Then we go from there. As with anything it takes time especially for a game that has a dynamic time line and battlefield. France was easy to balance, Russia + late game harder.


I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree here. I actually think the balance in France might be just as bad as Russia. A strong BEF commitment to France is very difficult for the Germans to handle. I'm still fairly new to the game but here is my recent AAR as an example: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=5118528. I'm sure experts could get even more BEF units into France. The overrun changes will most likely make the France defense even stronger than it already is...



stjeand -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (1/31/2022 9:06:18 PM)

redrum some things that the Germans HAVE to do to take France...

1) Keep armor off the front lines always...IF they are there they are vulnerable.
2) Infantry must rotate in and out with each other and the armor. The infantry hit the French a few times and rotate the armor in to finish them...then new infantry need to rotate to the front. NOW you can't always do it that perfectly but need to try whenever possible.


NOW I need more practice against the big BEF but it is still a game changer.
I just played sveint and surrendered after losing 220 air. The Germans had zero chance to rebuild even half of it and I would have only had 5 armor to attack Russia in May. So the game was over. He had 11 UK corps and extra air.

I have stopped playing this way since it is basically just a win for the Allies for the most part and I don't want a boring game. Sort of a like a cheat.

I think the UK need to have most of the manpower stripped from them and finally get some back in 40...I may test that. They need to be able to put 3 corps in France if not 4 and protect their mainland. But since the Germans have no chance to invade from the East early...there is no reason to have much in the way of garrisons. Maybe the UK minefields do not show up until mid 40? That would mean they have to put large corps on the UK east coast to keep the Germans from invading. That might work.



ncc1701e -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (1/31/2022 9:06:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa


So I think in this next patch I will do this. Experience will stay the same...BUT overruns will change.

Currently the overrun is 7:1+ BOOM they blow up ugly.

So I changed the run that units get overrun on 7:1+ AND their strength needs to be 1/3rd of their max health or less AFTER combat.


As such, it means more combat to destroy an infantry corps. So, I hope more increase of land based experience for Russian and more fighting while withdrawing.



redrum68 -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (1/31/2022 9:26:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

redrum some things that the Germans HAVE to do to take France...

1) Keep armor off the front lines always...IF they are there they are vulnerable.
2) Infantry must rotate in and out with each other and the armor. The infantry hit the French a few times and rotate the armor in to finish them...then new infantry need to rotate to the front. NOW you can't always do it that perfectly but need to try whenever possible.


NOW I need more practice against the big BEF but it is still a game changer.
I just played sveint and surrendered after losing 220 air. The Germans had zero chance to rebuild even half of it and I would have only had 5 armor to attack Russia in May. So the game was over. He had 11 UK corps and extra air.

I have stopped playing this way since it is basically just a win for the Allies for the most part and I don't want a boring game. Sort of a like a cheat.

I think the UK need to have most of the manpower stripped from them and finally get some back in 40...I may test that. They need to be able to put 3 corps in France if not 4 and protect their mainland. But since the Germans have no chance to invade from the East early...there is no reason to have much in the way of garrisons. Maybe the UK minefields do not show up until mid 40? That would mean they have to put large corps on the UK east coast to keep the Germans from invading. That might work.


Makes sense. Just not sure that's quite enough against 11 UK corps + extra air as you point out. But yeah, my take currently is you probably need a house rule to put a limit on the BEF commitment to France but it would be better if the game was better balanced in France to avoid having to do that. The other issue is Luxemburg which if the Allies grab it can delay the Germans for a turn or 2 and seems very unhistorical.



ncc1701e -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (1/31/2022 10:59:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

Any update as to why the Russian units have 1 less artillery and 1 less defense?

That really adds up.

And again...the Russians used the most artillery in the war out of any country.
Perhaps "corps" should be affected but Armies should have the artillery and defense normalized?


+1 this is also an idea I have to increase by events the power of Russian infantry army.
Perhaps in 1941, this is justified by the fact Red Army was not prepared. But, for me, end of 1941, just before Winter offensive, it makes sense to align, by events, Russian infantry army to German infantry corps.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (2/1/2022 2:08:01 AM)

There is also a new garrison requirement for Egypt. If they dont have 6 units there Italy can declare war.
Or you can play the Italian option which is like World in Flames.

So if France or UK evacuate North Africa or the Middle East they get penalized

I never had an issue with big BEF.



stjeand -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (2/1/2022 10:53:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

There is also a new garrison requirement for Egypt. If they dont have 6 units there Italy can declare war.
Or you can play the Italian option which is like World in Flames.

So if France or UK evacuate North Africa or the Middle East they get penalized

I never had an issue with big BEF.

So if France or UK evacuate North Africa or the Middle East they get penalized


The UK has to neglect the BOA to start so...they are basically dumping all into units.

They can have...at least 2 armor and 9 large corps...possible fighter or 2 also.

I have had 2 armor, 2 mech and 7 large corps before...but that was pre air so really need to retest it because more air would be better.

As I said...sveint focused on UK and French fighters...I suspect he put full repair in them.
The Germans lost 220 air...which as you know is upwards of 2000PP to repair. That would be almost 3 months of full PP...and I was repairing them full every turn.
Took France in late September and was only able to build 1 more armor for my war in Russia...so 5 armor and 2 mech for Russia.
War over.
AND I was using supply trucks on my fighters every turn...did not help.

Of course would need to test this more...

But I know I have never lost a big BEF for the Allies...they never get out of France.
One players did...but had lost 4 corps including an armor...that is a LOT to lose...
AND needed to repair all units.



stjeand -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (2/1/2022 10:54:34 AM)

Perhaps Egypt needs strength values too to keep this from happening?

BUT need to test new stuff first.

House rules work for me.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (2/1/2022 1:55:55 PM)

Neither Hadros or myself have failed to take France even with a big BEF by August at the latest and that was me.

Generally I focus on the French.

Of the Allies build up a strong front to Paris go for the other cities. Blow a hole in their lines. That's what I do. The very basic operation concept of... Attack the enemy where he is not defending.

With Italy entering the war early it should help if they abandon Egypt. Now they have to choose what to protect. I would gladly delay in France to take out Egypt and the oil fields.



redrum68 -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (2/1/2022 2:13:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

There is also a new garrison requirement for Egypt. If they dont have 6 units there Italy can declare war.
Or you can play the Italian option which is like World in Flames.

So if France or UK evacuate North Africa or the Middle East they get penalized

I never had an issue with big BEF.


This is a good start though I would recommend freezing or removing and adding it later the WDF Armor as the British will defend Egypt with 6 divisions and ship the WDF to France.

The other 3 recommendations I would make to weaken a strong defense of France are:
1. Reduce French ground experience from 40% to 35% - this is to counterattack the ability to garrison units and the increase to 3 hex retreat distance
2. Reduce Belgian ground experience from 40% to 35% - this is to make 1 turn capture of Belgium more consistent as when it doesn't fall it delays the Germans a turn or 2
3. Increase the penalty for the Allies capturing Luxemburg as right now its pretty much always worth it and its very unhistorical



sveint -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (2/1/2022 6:53:06 PM)

France is fine.

The UK might be slightly strong but I don't mind, they have to make huge sacrifices if they want to go all in BEF.



redrum68 -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (2/1/2022 7:12:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

France is fine.

The UK might be slightly strong but I don't mind, they have to make huge sacrifices if they want to go all in BEF.


Pretty minimal sacrifices. Much rather build a bunch of ground/air units and force Germany to waste as much time and production as possible taking France than buy MM/escorts which Germany crushes with its subs/surface fleet early no matter what. Plus assuming you don't outright lose many British units in France you can use them in North Africa.



Lascar -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (2/1/2022 9:21:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68


quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

France is fine.

The UK might be slightly strong but I don't mind, they have to make huge sacrifices if they want to go all in BEF.


Pretty minimal sacrifices. Much rather build a bunch of ground/air units and force Germany to waste as much time and production as possible taking France than buy MM/escorts which Germany crushes with its subs/surface fleet early no matter what. Plus assuming you don't outright lose many British units in France you can use them in North Africa.


I our previous and current game were you able to deploy 11 corps to France without sending a unit from Egypt?



redrum68 -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (2/1/2022 9:54:30 PM)

quote:

I our previous and current game were you able to deploy 11 corps to France without sending a unit from Egypt?


I sent the WDF armor to France but my point was even if you make an Egypt garrison requirement you can just replace it with a infantry division so doesn't fully solve the problem.



Lascar -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (2/1/2022 10:05:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68

quote:

I our previous and current game were you able to deploy 11 corps to France without sending a unit from Egypt?


I sent the WDF armor to France but my point was even if you make an Egypt garrison requirement you can just replace it with a infantry division so doesn't fully solve the problem.

Right, that's what I thought. An 11 corps BEF will still be possible.



CHINCHIN -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (2/2/2022 7:59:32 AM)

Maybe this could be avoided by removing mines and adding beaches on the east coast of Great Britain, forcing the UK to maintain units to defend those beaches. It would also help to increase the damage of submarines against convoys with few or no escorts.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (2/2/2022 3:10:37 PM)

They have to maintain them. They can be paradropped on. Two places can be invaded into. The minefields are there to prevent serious exploit but still require garrisons.... AND they were actually there. The UK minefields are based on real minefields.



generalfdog -> RE: Russian status after updates to supply / air (2/6/2022 1:03:21 AM)

I get incremental change is needed I do wonder if there is some way to force or encourage a forward or more historical Russian deployment but maybe make them a little better or get a few more units?



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