Naval effectiveness (Full Version)

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*Lava* -> Naval effectiveness (1/22/2022 12:45:52 AM)

I know that the range penalties for our fleets were put in place to keep fleets from roaming all over the map, supported by oilers and I like the concept.

My problem is that it takes forever for ships to recover effectives in port.

I think it would be nice if one could use oilers to recover some effectiveness (2 or 3%) in port. It will be costly, but it would simulate the vast logistical tail that the US built to maintain its warships at sea.

Thus, an oiler becomes like a truck for naval units but only when they are in port. Effect of oilers on submarines would remain the same.

Personally, I spend tons of production on trucks to support my army. In a naval theater, we need some help to keep ships up to at least a descent level of effectiveness without spending, in some cases, months in port.

It's just my feeling.



Remington700 -> RE: Naval effectiveness (1/22/2022 1:12:35 PM)

I think we need to be careful with this.

Japanese naval raiding (ships not subs) of supply lines is very powerful. In the early game, the only thing keeping it in check is the loss of effectiveness and the recovery time. If Japan goes at it too heavy their CVs become weak thus providing small opportunities to the Allies. The late game is the same, just with Allied surface raiding.

Also, I suspect the use of Oilers for effectiveness recovery might even be worse for WP and the BOA. However I have not played WP enough lately to understand the effect.



*Lava* -> RE: Naval effectiveness (1/22/2022 7:25:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Remington700

I think we need to be careful with this.

Japanese naval raiding (ships not subs) of supply lines is very powerful. In the early game, the only thing keeping it in check is the loss of effectiveness and the recovery time. If Japan goes at it too heavy their CVs become weak thus providing small opportunities to the Allies. The late game is the same, just with Allied surface raiding.

Also, I suspect the use of Oilers for effectiveness recovery might even be worse for WP and the BOA. However I have not played WP enough lately to understand the effect.


It looks like you regain something like 4% of effectiveness in Port.

In my invasion of the Solomon's, which involved attacking only 2 islands, some of my BB's were down to 48%. There are a lot of islands out there to invade, and these ones were in very close proximity to my main supply base, Henderson Field.

Trying to invade Truk, is going to be hell. We'll see what happens, but I think my fleet will take a huge amount of effectiveness damage. They will be in port for months... but we'll see.



Remington700 -> RE: Naval effectiveness (1/22/2022 8:33:38 PM)

I play hotseat so I am not sure if playing against the AI or Pbem makes a difference - but I assume not. For me, the return of Effectiveness seems to be on a "curve" although I do not know the math. When in the mid 60s I get a return of about 9%, in the higher 70s I get around 6%, and in the high 80s-low 90s I get 3-4% per turn. Port size and location do not seem to matter, as long as you meet the level 5 requirement - however I could well be wrong.

In convoy lanes far from port, I tend to lose about 20% effectiveness in the first turn if the fleet is in the mid 80s and above. Losing less if effectiveness is lower. This mechanic leads to the decision of staying a second turn to do more damage to the MM at the expense of having a dangerously low amount of effectiveness. Or returning to port doing less damage (assuming a range of more than 24 hexes).

I agree with you about the battleships losing a ton of effectiveness supporting multiple attacks. It adds up quick and takes the task group out of the game for multiple turns. So I try to limit the number of ships providing bombardment as there is a max to the value they can provide. For Japan it usually seems to be around three BBs for a 10 step unit.

Due to diminishing returns on effectiveness recovery, I now have fleets at sea that have less than 100% effectiveness. Which can create opportunities for smaller fresh task groups to stop larger, worn out fleets. Basically there seems to be more but smaller naval battles. Which fits in very well with the smaller fleet scenarios.



*Lava* -> RE: Naval effectiveness (1/23/2022 12:19:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Remington700

I play hotseat so I am not sure if playing against the AI or Pbem makes a difference - but I assume not. For me, the return of Effectiveness seems to be on a "curve" although I do not know the math. When in the mid 60s I get a return of about 9%, in the higher 70s I get around 6%, and in the high 80s-low 90s I get 3-4% per turn. Port size and location do not seem to matter, as long as you meet the level 5 requirement - however I could well be wrong.


Yes, it does seem that you get back a lot more effectiveness when your ships are very low, but the higher they are, the slower they recover.

Still playing a game where the naval combat is going to very soon heat up. We'll see what happens.



GiveWarAchance -> RE: Naval effectiveness (1/24/2022 6:39:23 PM)

Sounds like the naval effectiveness maybe drops off too fast but I don't know much.
How long were TFs usually at sea for? Especially in 1944, the US fleets seemed to be at sea for long periods.



*Lava* -> RE: Naval effectiveness (1/24/2022 10:57:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GiveWarAchance

Sounds like the naval effectiveness maybe drops off too fast but I don't know much.
How long were TFs usually at sea for? Especially in 1944, the US fleets seemed to be at sea for long periods.


In truth the US 5th fleet was at sea for the entire war.

In the game, it spends most of the time in port. It is not unusual to lose 40 up to 60 percent effectiveness in a prolonged battle at sea... which is 2 or 3 turns.

As Remington stated, the lower your effectiveness the quicker it goes up. Still, I wish we could use oilers to bump the effectiveness 2 or 3 percent. This would mainly be used when you are engaged in a battle which goes at least 2 turns, which pales in comparison to a drop of around 24 or so percent which occurs when they actually fight and are near to a main supply port.

Still, in my latest game in which I am in 1943, it does seem to work out and with the smaller fleets, you have to plan carefully before you actually attack.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Naval effectiveness (1/25/2022 1:06:05 PM)

It is still a relatively new rule that possibly needs to be adjusted.

Your fleets should be in major ports 5+. They also shouldn't be out at sea for 3-4 turns. They also should be near the double anchor sign.



*Lava* -> RE: Naval effectiveness (1/26/2022 2:36:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

It is still a relatively new rule that possibly needs to be adjusted.

Your fleets should be in major ports 5+. They also shouldn't be out at sea for 3-4 turns. They also should be near the double anchor sign.


It's worked out okay. In my on going game, it is the 1st of January 1945 and I have at least 15 to 18 CVs to the Japanese 1.

In fact, in some cases it works out quite well. A Japanese fleet sorties to stop an invasion, I then attack with 1 group of 6 CVs. I believe this will reduce their effectiveness, above and beyond the damage done. I then sortie a second group of 6 CVs and most of the times, the Jap fleet takes big loses.



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