Naval Search on Limited Arcs (Full Version)

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BananaConvention -> Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/22/2022 4:11:06 AM)

I've been playing with search arcs rather than just a random search. What does the green search arc slice mean, and what do the black ones mean? I'm trying to narrow the focus of searches to improve chances of finding stuff but I can't figure out the colors.



Platoonist -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/22/2022 4:36:11 AM)

Blue and green vector lines represent the morning and afternoon search phases. Black shows when the designated search areas are covered in both phases. It all depends on how many planes you have patrolling. The light blue lines represent ASW.



Leandros -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/22/2022 9:43:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

Blue and green vector lines represent the morning and afternoon search phases. Black shows when the designated search areas are covered in both phases. It all depends on how many planes you have patrolling. The light blue lines represent ASW.



Also, I believe, the distance you mission the search...Shorter distance, better coverage within the designated area. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Fred



Phoenix100 -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/22/2022 10:32:37 AM)

The explanation, given above, is definitely hard to find, I've found, which is why it's nice to be able to ask in here and get a quick response. :) But, in case there are other things in there you might be interested in, the search arcs colours explanation, and a few other things, are in the file called 'Interface Addendum' in the Manuals folder of the main install folder.



BBfanboy -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/22/2022 10:59:50 AM)

If the compass directions in degrees are mysterious to you, look at the top right hand corner of the game map - the compass rose there should show you what directions the various degree settings correspond to.



Kull -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/22/2022 1:04:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

The explanation, given above, is definitely hard to find, I've found, which is why it's nice to be able to ask in here and get a quick response. :) But, in case there are other things in there you might be interested in, the search arcs colours explanation, and a few other things, are in the file called 'Interface Addendum' in the Manuals folder of the main install folder.


Good call! Search arcs were a feature added in a later update, which is why it didn't make into the manual. In the same folder is another file, "Pilot Management Addendum", and that too is definitely worth a read (also not in the manual).



actrade -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/22/2022 1:06:43 PM)

I believe numbers of aircraft, distance and width of arc all play a role in coverage. If you want higher coverage, add aircraft, shorten the search distance and lower the arc to the degree where you get the coverage you want.



BananaConvention -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/22/2022 2:02:19 PM)

So I read the interface addendum but it does not talk about the BLACK arcs or lines. It only discusses green and blue things. Can we get confirmation that the BLACK lines are good and not bad? I usually equate black lines with something not being available or unattainable.



RangerJoe -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/22/2022 2:13:46 PM)

Altitude also makes a difference. Seeing a lone destroyer in the ocean is tough at a higher altitude but the dive bomber pilots can use that as a direction indicator to find the Kido Butai . . . [8D]

So higher altitude gives you more ocean to see at a glance but too high leaves the smaller TFs a greater chance of not being seen. The best search altitude overall seems to be 6k feet although dive bombers with a naval strike mission as well as the search mission still would need to be flying at the dive bombing altitude for the strike mission. The Scouting dive bombers would be 50% strike and 50% search. With two US carriers operating together, only one carrier would search. I just use 30% search for my dive bombers . . .

ASW missions are best flown at the lowest altitude possible if you actually want to hurt them as it give the sub less time to react and dive out of danger. One US pilot claimed to have sunk a Japanese cruiser, he bombed it and it sank in less than half a minute! [sm=happy0005.gif] He got chewed out for bombing a US sub! [X(]



Platoonist -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/22/2022 3:08:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BananaConvention

So I read the interface addendum but it does not talk about the BLACK arcs or lines. It only discusses green and blue things. Can we get confirmation that the BLACK lines are good and not bad? I usually equate black lines with something not being available or unattainable.


Black lines mean that arc slice is getting both morning and afternoon coverage. So, I guess you can say it's a good thing if you have the planes to spare for it.



Lowpe -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/22/2022 5:48:44 PM)

As I understand it, only the afternoon search is done at medium to long range say greater than 8 hexes, although that exact distance is a guess on my part.




BBfanboy -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/22/2022 7:12:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

As I understand it, only the afternoon search is done at medium to long range say greater than 8 hexes, although that exact distance is a guess on my part.



Doesn't the setting you use for the squadron range determine how far the search goes?
I thought the 8 hexes or so was the figure for a thorough search (the aircraft can see to both sides of the arc) while 12 hexes was about the limit for an effective search (the arc visibility in the 8-12 hex range is not complete, but enough to be worthwhile)?



Lowpe -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/22/2022 7:19:46 PM)

There isn't enough time for the plane to fly out and complete the long distance search in the am phase only....

Another hidden frustration in naval search arcs, is the that the plane might return after spotting an enemy task force, and not give you the full length search. More planes searching that arc make it more likely to search the entire distance albeit at a less effective rate the greater the distance.






BBfanboy -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/22/2022 7:26:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

There isn't enough time for the plane to fly out and complete the long distance search in the am phase only....

Another hidden frustration in naval search arcs, is the that the plane might return after spotting an enemy task force, and not give you the full length search. More planes searching that arc make it more likely to search the entire distance albeit at a less effective rate the greater the distance.


Ah! Thanks, I did not catch that your 8 hex comment referred only to the Morning Phase. That makes perfect sense, given how long some patrol aircraft can remain airborne.



Moltrey -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/23/2022 2:43:10 PM)

Seems a bit silly, but I dug out my old 360 degree protractor to be a quick aid to arcs, just laying on my desk next to the manual, etc.
After a while you won't need it anymore.

There are some good debate threads on Arc vs. No-Arc, Air Search vs. ASW (quite different in execution) and how they work. Don't have the reference handy, perhaps the other guys do, it's an eye-opener.



BananaConvention -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/23/2022 4:22:43 PM)

BLUF (Bottom line up front):

Should I bother with search arcs or do let it go random? In both of my PBEM battles I am using exclusively search arcs for both naval search and ASW patrol. Am I wasting my time?



the1henson -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/23/2022 4:28:56 PM)

You’re not wasting your time. It makes perfect sense to focus your vision on the places you really need to see.

One thing I don’t do, however, is set arcs for carriers. Maybe someone will come let me know I’m screwing up in a big way on that, but I haven’t detected negative consequences after I stoped that practice.



Trugrit -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/23/2022 5:06:48 PM)


You are correct. You should never use search arcs from ships that are at sea.
You set random arcs at sea. The game searches out to four hexes automatically.

From land I use both random and/or search arcs depending on what I’m trying to do.
I use the search arcs for very long range detection and I get almost 100% detection
on any enemy task force that stops movement in the zone.

I bring multiple planes into a single sector and search both day phases.
I use a lot of aircraft when I do this.

Note: B-17’s work very well for both naval search and recon.

I’ve shown my methods in this thread:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4985690
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4985693
Read the whole thread.




RangerJoe -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/23/2022 6:30:35 PM)

B-17Ds at 1000 feet for ASW gives a good search area . . .



Trugrit -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/23/2022 6:53:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

B-17Ds at 1000 feet for ASW gives a good search area . . .

Yep,

I use the B-17 for ground recon a lot as well. Ground hexes not base hexes.
They are tough planes and can soak up a lot of punishment as long as you don’t go real low.

One of the bad things about the recon of a ground hex is that if the recon plane does
not see an enemy ground unit in the hex it will fly over an enemy base hex instead
and get shot up. B-17’s work good in this role.

If the recon plane sees an enemy ground in the hex it will stick there.

You don’t get real good recon results with the B-17 but once I know
that the enemy is in the hex I can go back with a dedicated recon plane
at high altitudes.




RangerJoe -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/23/2022 9:41:17 PM)

The B-17D has the best range and the weakest defenses. Much like the LB-30, they are both best used for Naval Search and ASW.



the1henson -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/23/2022 10:12:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


You are correct. You should never use search arcs from ships that are at sea.
You set random arcs at sea. The game searches out to four hexes automatically.

From land I use both random and/or search arcs depending on what I’m trying to do.
I use the search arcs for very long range detection and I get almost 100% detection
on any enemy task force that stops movement in the zone.

I bring multiple planes into a single sector and search both day phases.
I use a lot of aircraft when I do this.

Note: B-17’s work very well for both naval search and recon.

I’ve shown my methods in this thread:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4985690
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4985693
Read the whole thread.




Great stuff.

It seems to me what year it is matters, especially for the allied player. Early in the war, there are situations when you know where the opponent's task force is or should be, but you're resource-constrained from the method you describe by the relative lack of airframes in 41/42, and you're just trying to keep your first convoys from hitting a cruiser or carrier raid. In those cases, a wider search area may be more important than fidelity within the search, especially if the arcs are large enough that any task force would spend multiple turns/segments in the coverage area. Later, however, there are assets available to amp up the fidelity.

It's always situational with the decisions in this game. I've learned not to just use "standard settings" unless I've first thought about the mission. Your method is a perfect illustration.



CaptBeefheart -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/24/2022 12:29:46 AM)

I play vs. the AI and I use random search almost exclusively (I'll define arcs from continental bases sometimes). It seems to work just as well as tweaking the arcs. I'd say it depends on what you like to spend time on. If you have the time and like that kind of micromanagement, then do it. If you'd rather focus on other things than tweaking search arcs, I don't think you'll suffer for it.

Cheers,
CB



RangerJoe -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/24/2022 1:22:27 AM)

If you are searching from Sydney, define your arcs. Those Whirlaways at 1,000 feet work good in the short range Air ASW saturation to assist ASW TFs.



Macquarrie1999 -> RE: Naval Search on Limited Arcs (1/24/2022 2:21:30 AM)

I also don't bother with arcs usually. I normally don't have enough planes to cover all I want with arcs and I find if it is random it finds things better.



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