Seaplanes not repairing at base w/CS vessel (Full Version)

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BananaConvention -> Seaplanes not repairing at base w/CS vessel (1/25/2022 1:35:51 AM)

I need help understanding some game mechanics.

I have a unit of Emilies working out of this base (see base card). It has 0 aviation support, but it has a CS (Chitose) anchored in port with +24 for float plane support.

The aircraft have been stuck at these repair and estimated dates for 3 turns. Why are these aircraft not being repaired and returned to service? Doesn't the anchored AS provide the required aviation support?

[image]https://gyazo.com/07dac53a3fc9b778bb743a00064141e9[/image] (Base card)
[image]https://gyazo.com/caa5238dc08ea49a58bb9292bd7c573d[/image] (plane card)

EDIT: This forum is weird, I don't know how to upload pictures here.




Macquarrie1999 -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/AS vessel (1/25/2022 1:40:02 AM)

Does the AV have supply?




Platoonist -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/AS vessel (1/25/2022 1:42:45 AM)

The Emily has a service rating of four which likely makes them slow to repair.




BananaConvention -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/AS vessel (1/25/2022 1:47:52 AM)

The ship had no supply loaded. I thought the aircraft would draw from the base's pre-existing supply. Maybe that's it. If the Emily has a service rating of 4, why quote me 1 day of repair and then not repair for those 1 days? It must be the lack of supply loaded on the ship.




spence -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/AS vessel (1/25/2022 1:53:12 AM)

First off - do you have an AS (submarine tender) or an AV (seaplane tender)?

Second - if it is an AV is it itself damaged? I don't think a damaged tender will repair anything. I know a damaged AR/ARSB won't repair anything else.

To download a picture do print screen then save, then change a .bmp to a .jpg, save again and then upload the jpg (lower left of this screen). You can print one picture per post by checking the box right next to "Click here to upload!".




RangerJoe -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/AS vessel (1/25/2022 2:13:12 AM)

I think that damaged tenders will repair if they are not in a repair mode themselves.




BananaConvention -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/AS vessel (1/25/2022 2:29:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

First off - do you have an AS (submarine tender) or an AV (seaplane tender)?

Second - if it is an AV is it itself damaged? I don't think a damaged tender will repair anything. I know a damaged AR/ARSB won't repair anything else.

To download a picture do print screen then save, then change a .bmp to a .jpg, save again and then upload the jpg (lower left of this screen). You can print one picture per post by checking the box right next to "Click here to upload!".

quote:

First off - do you have an AS (submarine tender) or an AV (seaplane tender)?


Forgive me, I misspoke. The ship in question is a CS, the Chitose. It is undamaged and has no supply loaded.




Kull -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/AS vessel (1/25/2022 2:29:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BananaConvention

EDIT: This forum is weird, I don't know how to upload pictures here.


It can be a little confusing. The two buttons at the bottom of the thread ("post reply" and "fast reply") don't include the option to attach a picture. Choose one of the two at the top of somebody's post ("reply" or "quote").

Edit: Der - "post reply" does have the option to attach pictures

[image]local://upfiles/25668/910A9AA3583C4A83853FC1AE6FBF32BC.jpg[/image]




Kull -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/AS vessel (1/25/2022 2:33:19 AM)

The reply/quote buttons result in a screen like the one below. "Click here to upload" allows you to go grab a picture from one of your folders (can navigate to different folders as needed) but you also have to check the "Embed picture in post" box for it to appear in your post

[image]local://upfiles/25668/39B2FBE6A96445758B7EEC7FF471F91F.jpg[/image]




Q-Ball -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/AS vessel (1/25/2022 3:14:44 AM)

Pictures would help, but the planes should repair with the conditions you describe; supply can be either on the ship or at the base.

Note that just because under PLANES it says the plane will be 1 day to repair, that is an estimate; it's not ironclad. Generally, EMILY repairs very slowly and you simply cannot use them in a sustained and daily way.

For sustained search operations from Size-0 base, use the JAKE. Less range, but it's easy to repair and can fly constantly.

Anyway, post some pictures and we can help!




RangerJoe -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/AS vessel (1/25/2022 3:14:57 AM)

You can also edit your own post and add a picture then.




BananaConvention -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/AS vessel (1/25/2022 3:34:36 AM)

Base Card

Aircraft Card

Pictures uploaded here, they should tell the full story.




LargeSlowTarget -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/AS vessel (1/25/2022 5:29:37 AM)

I think CS can support only float planes. The Emily is not a float plane type but a patrol type. Manual says CS is "...adapted to carry and operate float-type aircraft..." while AV is "...used to tend float planes and flying boats" - so there seems to be a distinction.





Lowpe -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/AS vessel (1/25/2022 1:14:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

I think CS can support only float planes. The Emily is not a float plane type put a patrol type. Manual says CS is "...adapted to carry and operate float-type aircraft..." while AV is "...used to tend float planes and flying boats" - so there seems to be a distinction.




+1, additionally, don't the planes have to be operating from the CS for it to repair?





Q-Ball -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/AS vessel (1/25/2022 1:31:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

I think CS can support only float planes. The Emily is not a float plane type put a patrol type. Manual says CS is "...adapted to carry and operate float-type aircraft..." while AV is "...used to tend float planes and flying boats" - so there seems to be a distinction.



Almost 20 years and I didn't realize that distinction until now....but I think that's right! Just goes to show how complex this game can be...




KingHart -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/CS vessel (1/26/2022 2:52:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BananaConvention

I need help understanding some game mechanics.

I have a unit of Emilies working out of this base (see base card). It has 0 aviation support, but it has a CS (Chitose) anchored in port with +24 for float plane support.

The aircraft have been stuck at these repair and estimated dates for 3 turns. Why are these aircraft not being repaired and returned to service? Doesn't the anchored AS provide the required aviation support?

[image]https://gyazo.com/07dac53a3fc9b778bb743a00064141e9[/image] (Base card)
[image]https://gyazo.com/caa5238dc08ea49a58bb9292bd7c573d[/image] (plane card)

EDIT: This forum is weird, I don't know how to upload pictures here.



A few notes on your situation:

1. In the Guadalcanal scenario the Chitose has 0 cargo capacity (in Grand Campaign the capacity is 2080), so you cannot load supply on the ship, thus that is not the problem.

2. The Emily is a float patrol plane, so it can be supported by a CS.

3. Your situation is not a repair problem; none of the planes has any damage.

4. The problem is maintenance. Planes being grounded for maintenance is caused by high fatigue. High fatigue is caused by overuse. The best way to lower fatigue is to stand down the unit.

5. Please note that there are 2 types of fatigue: Pilot and Plane. Check your pilot list for this unit, you will probably see 3-4 pilots that have high fatigue levels.

6. The Emily has a service rating of 4, which gives the plane a poor maintenance rating of 25 (100 is the best), meaning it takes longer for the plane fatigue to decrease.

7. Please also remember AE is a Gary Grigsby game, which means die rolls; a lot of `em. Nothing is automatic. If one of your planes has been stuck on 1-day-to-repair for several days, it has been getting bad die rolls. Factors that may be negatively affecting your situation include base size, base support, and being in a Malaria zone.

8. You may want to consider moving this unit back to Rabaul and substitute a unit of Jake's.

Hope this helps.




BananaConvention -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/CS vessel (1/26/2022 3:51:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHart
A few notes on your situation:

1. In the Guadalcanal scenario the Chitose has 0 cargo capacity (in Grand Campaign the capacity is 2080), so you cannot load supply on the ship, thus that is not the problem.

2. The Emily is a float patrol plane, so it can be supported by a CS.

3. Your situation is not a repair problem; none of the planes has any damage.

4. The problem is maintenance. Planes being grounded for maintenance is caused by high fatigue. High fatigue is caused by overuse. The best way to lower fatigue is to stand down the unit.

5. Please note that there are 2 types of fatigue: Pilot and Plane. Check your pilot list for this unit, you will probably see 3-4 pilots that have high fatigue levels.

6. The Emily has a service rating of 4, which gives the plane a poor maintenance rating of 25 (100 is the best), meaning it takes longer for the plane fatigue to decrease.

7. Please also remember AE is a Gary Grigsby game, which means die rolls; a lot of `em. Nothing is automatic. If one of your planes has been stuck on 1-day-to-repair for several days, it has been getting bad die rolls. Factors that may be negatively affecting your situation include base size, base support, and being in a Malaria zone.

8. You may want to consider moving this unit back to Rabaul and substitute a unit of Jake's.

Hope this helps.

quote:


A few notes on your situation:

1. In the Guadalcanal scenario the Chitose has 0 cargo capacity (in Grand Campaign the capacity is 2080), so you cannot load supply on the ship, thus that is not the problem.

2. The Emily is a float patrol plane, so it can be supported by a CS.

3. Your situation is not a repair problem; none of the planes has any damage.

4. The problem is maintenance. Planes being grounded for maintenance is caused by high fatigue. High fatigue is caused by overuse. The best way to lower fatigue is to stand down the unit.

5. Please note that there are 2 types of fatigue: Pilot and Plane. Check your pilot list for this unit, you will probably see 3-4 pilots that have high fatigue levels.

6. The Emily has a service rating of 4, which gives the plane a poor maintenance rating of 25 (100 is the best), meaning it takes longer for the plane fatigue to decrease.

7. Please also remember AE is a Gary Grigsby game, which means die rolls; a lot of `em. Nothing is automatic. If one of your planes has been stuck on 1-day-to-repair for several days, it has been getting bad die rolls. Factors that may be negatively affecting your situation include base size, base support, and being in a Malaria zone.

8. You may want to consider moving this unit back to Rabaul and substitute a unit of Jake's.

Hope this helps.


I think you may be onto something. I checked my Emily's this turn, and two have been restored and the remaining two have completely different repair estimates. I've moved an AV down there as well to back up the CS; I think you may have the right idea about the dice rolls, because everything else on paper made sense for the aircraft to be repaired.





Lowpe -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/CS vessel (1/26/2022 2:48:48 PM)

I can't recall every using CS as a disbanded seaplane tender, but they obviously have that capability.

This from stock game 1.



[image]local://upfiles/44178/9A080FE120994E15ABEA4E85FAEF67C3.jpg[/image]




Lokasenna -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/CS vessel (1/26/2022 8:40:29 PM)

I believe the ones onboard might operate while it is disbanded in port (or they might not).

The Seaplane Support means they support planes that are at the base that the CS is disbanded at.




Chris21wen -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/CS vessel (1/28/2022 12:03:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I believe the ones onboard might operate while it is disbanded in port (or they might not).

The Seaplane Support means they support planes that are at the base that the CS is disbanded at.


Did a little test or I though it was going to be.

Active groups set to 100 search max range. Used pilot missions to indicate flying. At no time did any AV or CS have supply on board.

Intial tests catagorically showed no sorties ever flew form ships disbanded in port. Then comes Babeldaob!

I had disbanded two CS in Babeldaob each had one group set to search, the other rest. The search groups flew? I had another CS in Hiroshima, similar set up but the search groups did NOT fly??

I started put them into TF with various movement instructions, disbanding once they reach they destination. It seems that if you move the AV/CS that won't fly to a different port they will, sometimes! For instance I moved one CS to Nagaski from Hiroshima and it would not, then moved it to Amami Oshima and it did. Likewise I moved a AV in and out of Truk no joy. Once I sent it to Saipan it did??

I also moved one CS back to Hiroshima from Saipan and again no FP would fly???

If you put the ship into a TF and move it somewhere else then when FP will fly when the ship is disbanded, sometimes?

Now am I missing something or is this a bug?

Supply
AV TF with two groups sent to Japanese dot base Torishima with no supply at base or on AV. One group I based there the other remained on board, docked. Both flew sorties. The one on board with 3+1 a/c fles an average of 6 a day. The one at the base with 6+2 a/c flew 10 on average. The shore based on also fly when the AV was disbanned.

Another AV at Amani Oshima with no supply at base or onboard also flew sorties while in a TF.

Pilots
One thing unassociated with this test, pilots with the lowest exp seem to take preference for patrol.




Lowpe -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/CS vessel (1/28/2022 1:17:13 PM)

I have noticed by Japanese AVs fly routinely when disbanded in a port, and I always make sure they have supply on them.

Never noticed the lowest exp guys flying first...hazing, I guess![:)]




Chris21wen -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/CS vessel (1/29/2022 5:37:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I have noticed by Japanese AVs fly routinely when disbanded in a port, and I always make sure they have supply on them.

...


That's what I thought but in my intiial test they did not as I only checked ships already disbanded. Easy to check just goto the CS in Hiroshima and set its FP to search then look next turn at pilot mission. There artn't any.

I had to unload, disband etc other CS/AV to get them to do it.

From the test you don't need it to fly search from ships???




jdsrae -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/CS vessel (1/29/2022 9:33:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I can't recall every using CS as a disbanded seaplane tender, but they obviously have that capability.

This from stock game 1.



I've never used them disbanded either, but it looks like the excess "Seaplane Support" is added to the Aviation Support +# even if they are in a task force in the hex.

The original topic got me wondering whether the “Aircraft Capacity” of CS and AV means they can support that many aircraft aboard, plus the number of “Seaplane Support” ashore. This shows that they can’t, as only the [Seaplane Support] – [Aircraft Capacity Used] gets added to the Aviation Support +# at the base.
This is from way back in Feb 1942 in my ongoing PBEM game, with three ships involved at Cagayan.
1. AV Sanuki Marus had 9 Aircraft Capacity/0 Used so all 21 Seaplane Support was added to the base.
2. CS Chiyoda was in TF145 at sea, not docked. Sagara Maru-1 was aboard about to resize to 24, with 8 aircraft. CS Chiyoda contributes +16 Seaplane Support to the base.
3. CS Mizuho was also in TF145 at sea. Mizuho-1 is aboard with 13 of 20 capacity, so contributes +7 to Seaplane Support at Cagayan.
That meant that 21+16+7=44 which was the number shown on the Cagayan base information.

[image]local://upfiles/34194/A56585343013487A821170F9FE677247.jpg[/image]




Ian R -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/CS vessel (1/29/2022 3:09:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I believe the ones onboard might operate while it is disbanded in port (or they might not).

The Seaplane Support means they support planes that are at the base that the CS is disbanded at.


Did a little test or I though it was going to be.

Active groups set to 100 search max range. Used pilot missions to indicate flying. At no time did any AV or CS have supply on board.

Intial tests catagorically showed no sorties ever flew form ships disbanded in port. Then comes Babeldaob!

I had disbanded two CS in Babeldaob each had one group set to search, the other rest. The search groups flew? I had another CS in Hiroshima, similar set up but the search groups did NOT fly??

I started put them into TF with various movement instructions, disbanding once they reach they destination. It seems that if you move the AV/CS that won't fly to a different port they will, sometimes! For instance I moved one CS to Nagaski from Hiroshima and it would not, then moved it to Amami Oshima and it did. Likewise I moved a AV in and out of Truk no joy. Once I sent it to Saipan it did??

I also moved one CS back to Hiroshima from Saipan and again no FP would fly???

If you put the ship into a TF and move it somewhere else then when FP will fly when the ship is disbanded, sometimes?

Now am I missing something or is this a bug?

Supply
AV TF with two groups sent to Japanese dot base Torishima with no supply at base or on AV. One group I based there the other remained on board, docked. Both flew sorties. The one on board with 3+1 a/c fles an average of 6 a day. The one at the base with 6+2 a/c flew 10 on average. The shore based on also fly when the AV was disbanned.

Another AV at Amani Oshima with no supply at base or onboard also flew sorties while in a TF.

Pilots
One thing unassociated with this test, pilots with the lowest exp seem to take preference for patrol.


I'd say you are missing something.

Step 1 - what was the weather? Where any hexes overcast or stormy? Also, water launched air won't fly in unsuitable sea states.

Step 2- Read the part of the manual which describes how air sorties flown from ships expend endurance, not supply.

Step 3 - review and reassess your results.




Chris21wen -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/CS vessel (1/30/2022 6:56:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I'd say you are missing something.

Step 1 - what was the weather? Where any hexes overcast or stormy? Also, water launched air won't fly in unsuitable sea states.

Step 2- Read the part of the manual which describes how air sorties flown from ships expend endurance, not supply.

Step 3 - review and reassess your results.


1 Weather is irrelevant, I did not just run this for one day.

Tried it again, picked any full campaign head to head. Turn off all air ops for both sides.

For any ship with FP that starts the game disbanded. Set them to max search run for 2/3 turn and they don't appear to fly. Put them in a TF docked or not, they do. Disband them again, they don't. I used 2xCL in Saigon, 1 CS and 1 CL in Hiroshima and AV in Ominato.

Then the opposite using ships in TF. Separate, unload and disband if necessary. Once disbanded repeat above. I did it for 1 BB/1 CA in Singora, 1 AV in Takao, 2 CS in Babeldoab and 1 AV in Chichi Jima. Those in SIngora and Takao did not fly, those in Babel and Chichi did.

Example of flying 13 Dec below.

2. Yes I know. Just confirmed it was the case for anyone thinking the did require it and was the cause.

3. Try it youself. If you don't get the same results then it's me or my install.

[image]local://upfiles/5388/BE29E43B664D4F1AB99C566A46A70B0C.jpg[/image]




Chris21wen -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/CS vessel (1/30/2022 7:06:16 AM)

Here's one that isn't. Again 13 Dec.


[image]local://upfiles/5388/4FEF70F971AB4D7B9867540F10564D5B.jpg[/image]




BananaConvention -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/CS vessel (1/30/2022 7:27:29 AM)

What are you using to validate whether or not the aircraft flew?




Chris21wen -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/CS vessel (1/30/2022 8:36:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BananaConvention

What are you using to validate whether or not the aircraft flew?


Pilot mission. I said that in an earlier post. When the scenario starts they are all zero.




LargeSlowTarget -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/CS vessel (1/30/2022 10:52:28 AM)

I have run a test with islands without any land-based AV support, with and without supplies, and a float plane unit and a flying boat unit present, and an AV respectivement an CS en route.

My findings:

* on the island without supplies, no sorties launched
* on the island with supplies, the planes fly until all are damaged
* CS and AV pilots flew missions while at sea - yes, even the AV pilots
* CS and AV supported and repaired their onboard float planes as well as land-based float planes and flying boats, both while undocked and disbanded in port, and with or without supplies loaded - just their presence at a base suffices to potentially provide AV support to the base
* "potentially" because the AV support for the base is "seaplane support minus total number of onboard planes including reserve planes" - e.g. an AV with 21 seplane support and a nine-plane squadron plus two reserve planes provides 10 AV support for the base - 21-(9+2). Without the reserve planes base AV is 12 - 21-9. A CS with seaplane support = 24 and two 12-plane squadrons onboard provides no AV support to the base, if one squadron is transferred offboard, 12 AV are being provided to the land base
* neither sorties nor onboard supplies are being consumed (for search missions)




Ian R -> RE: Seaplanes not repairing at base w/CS vessel (1/30/2022 11:43:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen



1 Weather is irrelevant, I did not just run this for one day [snip]





Oh dear, you seem upset that I have questioned your claim that you have found a bug, one that has apparently eluded detection for 13 years. I tried to point you in the right direction, but that was unsuccessful.

So, let's do this in very clinical, emotionless fashion, starting with the above statement, and working downwards over the next few days.

First, weather affects every air mission. They are all subject to weather effects on mission launch rolls, direct, and indirectly affected by weather.

7.2.1.4 paraphrased - weather effects add to the chance of mission aborts due to leadership/morale fails

7.2.1.12 WEATHER AND ABORTED MISSIONS
Offensive Missions can be aborted after all preparations have been made, but prior to take-off,
due to bad weather over the air unit’s base or over the intended target. Hexes affected by bad
weather blocks any air units from launching an airstrike from the hex, and it blocks any target
in the hex from being attacked.
A line of bad weather will not stop an airstrike flying through the hex from a good weather hex
to a good weather hex. A no-fly symbol (a cloud) will appear on the tactical map if the Show
Clouds preference option is selected.


Note that a search mission is an airstrike, or to use the language in 7.4, an "attack mission" - and they carry an extended range bombload and can attack ships they find them {7.1} on page 151. See also the table on page 157. Search is a patrol mission launched in phase 2, but it is still capable of making a strike; it is an offensive mission.

Finally, as to your assertion that running it for a few days somehow makes weather irrelevant - that is incorrect. Every hex is subject to a die roll, and every base a die roll each phase, and might get the cloud cover or worse, that stops any air activity. See 12.1, page 224:

"Each of these weather quadrants will generate a different weather forecast for all hexes
in their quadrant.Offensive Missions can be aborted after all preparations have been made,
but prior to take-off, due to bad weather over the air unit’s base or over the intended target. A
message will display if this occurs.The aircraft will not fly another Mission during that Air Strike
phase. The weather at each base or target is determined each air phase, and is not linked to
prior weather at that location."


Messages pop up hundreds, if not thousands of times, in any game that float plane ops from cruisers "at sea" (which includes sitting in a TF, undocked) have been canceled due to weather.

Incidentally, even if you have the weather option switched off, you get partly cloudy everywhere, and whilst that is not so bad for ground bases, it still plays havoc with floatplane ops.

So unless you are somehow controlling the weather die-rolls each time you re-run the turns, yes weather is relevant.

Edit: And in other news, as I type, Rafa has broken the Russian Robot in set 4 and is strengthening shot by shot on the way to taking the #1 ranking away from the deportee.




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