Number of concurrent research projects? (Full Version)

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Jorgen_CAB -> Number of concurrent research projects? (1/26/2022 10:00:05 PM)

I have seen from the streams that you can research more than one technology at the same time, but there does not seem to be any benefit in doing so.

Could you please explain why if I research two techs everything takes double the time, that way no one would use that feature unless you just want to be inefficient?!?

Or is there something else hidden behind the scenes that I don't see or understand?



Galaxy227 -> RE: Number of concurrent research projects? (1/26/2022 10:22:12 PM)

I thought about this myself and am hoping Elliot made it more efficient to research concurrent projects.

I imagine it should work as follows:

Let (N) represents whatever combination of values Elliot mashes together to decide the size & expense of technologies.

Three projects should take 1(N) time to research concurrently, where
Project 1: 1(N)
Project 2: 1(N)
Project 3: 1(N)

Two projects should take 0.75(N) time to research concurrently, where
Project 1: 0.75(N)
Project 2: 0.75(N)

One project should take 0.5(N) time, where
Project 1: 0.5(N)

This way, one project is faster for specific technologies, but three projects is always faster overall.

For instance, imagine you're only hope to win a war is by researching those larger ship hulls. Time is of the essence, and so it makes sense to only research one project, as you'll get those ship hulls in half the time, 0.5(N), relative to researching three projects concurrently, 1(N). However, if you're at peace and not especially needing those ship hulls, it would be smarter to research three projects concurrently. This is because researching only one project at a time, where each project takes 0.5(N) of time, tallies up to 1.5(N) total time to research three projects individually. If you were to research three projects concurrently instead, it would only take 1(N) of time, 0.5(N) less than our previous 1.5(N) total.

With some super simple math, you can make it so focusing on less projects speeds up the process for those individual projects, but broadening your research to three concurrent projects is still ultimately faster overall.

Edit: From a game design perspective, I can understand why the developers would shy away from my proposal above. If my proposal were implemented, it could be especially confusing for new players. I could see many players only researching one technology at a time (as most games have you do), only to fall behind the AI researching projects concurrently. Even so, the argument could be made it's even more confusing to allow concurrent projects without any differentiation between parallel research and the more traditional one-by-one method. If there isn't any difference between individual and concurrent research, it's better to just stick with one method. Having both be an option is just extra fluff, and in a game as large as Distant Worlds 2, extra fluff only leads to confusion.

TL;DR: It's confusing.



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Number of concurrent research projects? (1/26/2022 10:41:08 PM)

Well... from the streams where they changed this the research went from 10.2 to 5.1 when switching from two to one concurrent technology, so it does not seem the case there is any benefit in researching two or more technologies at the same time, which make it worse than doing them one at a time if that is the case.



zgrssd -> RE: Number of concurrent research projects? (1/27/2022 1:10:30 AM)

Just a wild guess:
Maybe each tech hss a chance to roll a breakthrough?
If you can run each project on a station where the station and scientists have a bonus. Thus giving you a potential increase overall?

But even that would not be nearly enough to justify multiplying the net cost by a factor of 2 or more!



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Number of concurrent research projects? (1/27/2022 9:29:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Just a wild guess:
Maybe each tech hss a chance to roll a breakthrough?
If you can run each project on a station where the station and scientists have a bonus. Thus giving you a potential increase overall?

But even that would not be nearly enough to justify multiplying the net cost by a factor of 2 or more!


That would be true, but you also can get setbacks as well?

Even if the breakthrough is more likely it would be a very minor benefit over getting the technologies early versus later. The benefit of that are probably allot greater in most cases.



Gertjan -> RE: Number of concurrent research projects? (1/27/2022 11:17:48 AM)

Would be good to have this explained in the tutorial for new (and experienced DWU) players :)



zgrssd -> RE: Number of concurrent research projects? (1/27/2022 12:50:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gertjan

Would be good to have this explained in the tutorial for new (and experienced DWU) players :)

Right now?
It would be best if that part was removed. At all. Maybe "just" set the default to 1 - because the current default of 3 is actively hindering the player unless they do something.

It does not mater how you slice it, if all it does is split the reserach evenly it just brings...nothing but a later tech.

Math example:
If you got 1 tech taking 20 Years and one tech taking 5 Years:

Sequentially (just with one slot):
Tech 1 is finished by year 20
Tech 2 is finished by year 25

If you split the reserach:
Tech 1 is finished by Year 40
Tech 2 is finished by Year 10

It is save to say that Tech 1 is much more important then Tech 2. The most important tech is always in the front of the queue. Multiplying the most importants techs timetable by 2 (or 3-6!) is just not a good idea.



KingHalford -> RE: Number of concurrent research projects? (1/27/2022 2:25:43 PM)

Sometimes I want to only do one ship redesign, not three.



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Number of concurrent research projects? (1/27/2022 3:11:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

Sometimes I want to only do one ship redesign, not three.


What does that have to do with anything... it is all about lost opportunity with having technology come earlier rather than later. You always want them earlier... you don't know the future so there can be many reason for having a technology five or ten years earlier can make a huge deal.



arvcran2 -> RE: Number of concurrent research projects? (1/27/2022 3:23:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB


quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

Sometimes I want to only do one ship redesign, not three.


What does that have to do with anything... it is all about lost opportunity with having technology come earlier rather than later. You always want them earlier... you don't know the future so there can be many reason for having a technology five or ten years earlier can make a huge deal.


From a player enjoyment priority perspective rather than a 4x win priority perspective ;).



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Number of concurrent research projects? (1/27/2022 5:00:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: arvcran2


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB


quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

Sometimes I want to only do one ship redesign, not three.


What does that have to do with anything... it is all about lost opportunity with having technology come earlier rather than later. You always want them earlier... you don't know the future so there can be many reason for having a technology five or ten years earlier can make a huge deal.


From a player enjoyment priority perspective rather than a 4x win priority perspective ;).


What exactly is it that you enjoy in this specific case?!?

You do realise there is only one queue so mechanically it "feels" the same, one is just better the other worse. So, the one who chooses to research one option simply get their technologies faster. The other simply get the pleasure of looking at their research indicator for each in the top bar rise slower and get access to their research slower for no actual in game-play reason.

What is the pleasure in this?!?



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Number of concurrent research projects? (1/27/2022 6:01:08 PM)

There is one scenario I can see the value in researching more than one thing... Let's say I have a technology that would take 50 years to research and I pay to halve the time... I now have dedicated myself to that technology. If something happen five years later and I have another technology i really need I could put that in to research it as waiting another 20 years might not be optimal. Other than that I find no real use for it.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Number of concurrent research projects? (1/27/2022 6:23:03 PM)

That's one of the situations where I do use it as well, to get some side projects with good bonuses done that won't slow down the main project too much, but where I don't want to wait for the main project to complete. The variability of project size and research bonuses across categories is what makes this situationally important.



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Number of concurrent research projects? (1/27/2022 6:34:33 PM)

Well, the bonuses in and of themselves does not change the time... but if there is an important technology I would want to get done before another I invested money into (so I can't remove it) I would.

But in general the bonuses does not change the time the projects will take if you do them concurrent or not.

Example...

tech A takes 10 years with 0% bonuses that is 10 years
tech B also takes 10 years but I have 100% bonus so now it takes 5 years.

If I research both at the same time..
Tech B is done after 10 years and tech A have done half of it's research, so now if I do it alone that is another five years for a total of fifteen years.

If I instead did tech B first that would be done after 5 years while tech A would be done after a total of fifteen years. So I would simply shave of five year on tech B.

But I could see that you want to use it sometimes if there is some important technology you want what you invested a crash course in one other technology that simply will take too long.

I probably would at least make single research the default option in the game and allow the player to decide when using multiple research a priority.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Number of concurrent research projects? (1/27/2022 6:46:27 PM)

I think we're still speaking from different perspectives here to a degree. The argument about optimization is not one I disagree with. I'm simply saying that from a practical standpoint in-game if I have a long-term project I'm focusing on, but the situation changes and I need another tech before it completes and that other tech is lower cost and has a good research bonus to speed it up further so that it won't take long to finish it even in parallel, I'll usually go for it. Also, some research projects, especially after the early game, are a more long-term investment and may not be as urgent as certain others that are responsive to a war or other crisis, but if a project has been crashed or has a critical breakthrough, you can't change it but you can add other projects to research in parallel.

I agree that probably the best way to make this option friendliest for all is to keep 1 at a time as the default even when 2 or 3 are possible to make it an active player choice to add parallel projects rather than asking players to remove them to focus just on one if they wish.



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: Number of concurrent research projects? (1/27/2022 7:00:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I think we're still speaking from different perspectives here to a degree. The argument about optimization is not one I disagree with. I'm simply saying that from a practical standpoint in-game if I have a long-term project I'm focusing on, but the situation changes and I need another tech before it completes and that other tech is lower cost and has a good research bonus to speed it up further so that it won't take long to finish it even in parallel, I'll usually go for it. Also, some research projects, especially after the early game, are a more long-term investment and may not be as urgent as certain others that are responsive to a war or other crisis, but if a project has been crashed or has a critical breakthrough, you can't change it but you can add other projects to research in parallel.

I agree that probably the best way to make this option friendliest for all is to keep 1 at a time as the default even when 2 or 3 are possible to make it an active player choice to add parallel projects rather than asking players to remove them to focus just on one if they wish.



Then I think we actually agree with the intent... that is also how I understand that it could be used for a positive effect. I also tend to play games like these with slower tech progression so it probably will be more important to use that once in a while for me. :)



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