Advice on tech 3 start - early city conquest or not? (Full Version)

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TinyFrog -> Advice on tech 3 start - early city conquest or not? (1/28/2022 1:47:15 PM)

I need advice what to do or not do early game. I just got an unexpected setback in my first game on normal difficulty, tech 3 with one army. My city population were upset at start because of "danger" and I guessed the source was a very close by minor city (6 hexes away).

Turn 3:ish one party demands we invade the close city and I accepted the good idea. I thought "finally a war were logistics already were solved". I gathered all troops (except two units on the opposite side) recruited two independent infantry units (the smallest type) and surrounded their city completely. From Recon I concluded they only had militia with poor equipment. I sat for one turn to get readiness up and invaded with 3.4 to 1 odds. That did not go well. [:o]

Then time warped in some strange galactic flux and my troops had another go. Same result. Again. Nope. And again. no I raised the troop's and SHQ's salaries and tried again. And again. You get it. [8|] It seems early minor city invasion with only basic infantry/machine guns isn't the best way forward.

How would you have handled my start?
Turtle for X rounds while trying to reach Light Tanks? Lure them out? Make a long attrition war over several turns? Diplomacy? Build even more infantry? Skip tech 3 start and do tech 4 instead?



TinyFrog -> RE: Advice on tech 3 start - early city conquest or not? (1/28/2022 2:06:16 PM)

double post and I cannot find how to remove it [&:]



LeoMPanther -> RE: Advice on tech 3 start - early city conquest or not? (1/28/2022 2:28:07 PM)

It is bit tricky to say since some variables will make some advice pointless. Is the defending city on defensible terrain? How many forces are there insider the hex? Have you got any strategems on the attacking troops?
Regardless some things could be universal. The enemy is likely dug in. Even the relatively weak militia artillery should be able to damage their trenches, this will damage city buildings as well but things can be rebuilt. Never attack in haste, going with the human wave approach you'll likely take severe losses regardless of the outcome of the battle. Be sure all your infantry is at high readiness even if it means waiting a turn or two, the enemy isn't going anywhere.

You can't really starve out a minor, as all their goods originate from the city that all the troops are sitting on.

Rather than surrounding the city completely leave one direction undefended, this might trick the AI in sending out its own forces in an attempt to surround you and re-establish a front, every unit that gets lured away means one less to defend the hex you are trying to take. Though mind that I don't know for sure if this will work.

Waiting for light tanks is certainly viable, though buggies (maybe with some armour) could also be sufficient to push as they wouldn't be as vulnerable to infantry fire.

Most of this is elementary though, as you've already said in your post. And from that I gather you're doing most things right. You could maybe pile on more recon to be sure of the enemy disposition, if possible design better infantry models so you'll be certain they are stronger. Having an Infiltration or All Out Attack-strategem might give your troops the advantage in the attack.

That's about all I can think off. I'm not sure it's off much help. I'll leave the more advanced tactics to the seasoned commanders on the forum



Maerchen -> RE: Advice on tech 3 start - early city conquest or not? (1/28/2022 2:32:30 PM)

Are your structural design values any good?

Did you raise recon to 400 before attacking with the good units?

Is the OHQ/SHQ commander any good?



TinyFrog -> RE: Advice on tech 3 start - early city conquest or not? (1/28/2022 2:39:33 PM)

My structural designs was normal (100) for infrantry and 105 for machine guns. I had no Buggies because they had structure 80:ish.

I think I had good recon, all my troops were there - but I'm not sure about the number. Need to check that in the next game.

The SHQ were brand new, cap V without any Supreme Command yet (she replaced a very low skilled cap I). The OHQ was decently skilled - I don't remember the numbers. And I erased the game - thought it would be more fun to start again without making the same mistake.



TinyFrog -> RE: Advice on tech 3 start - early city conquest or not? (1/28/2022 2:42:09 PM)

The minor regime had all its troops in the city. The numbers were high but when I read their hit points and attack/defence I was not impressed. I had no playable strat cards this early in the game.

quote:

The enemy is likely dug in

I think this was the main problem. Thanks for all your advice. [:)]



eddieballgame -> RE: Advice on tech 3 start - early city conquest or not? (1/28/2022 4:00:24 PM)

Unless I am...desperate, I will never attack at less than 5:1 odds.
This is based on my experience, nothing more.
The offensive & defensive mod estimations also play a major role in my decision to commit to a battle.
Many times I get better results by just holding my position & letting the AI attack me...if they dare. [:)]
btw, early machine gunners are mainly for defense.



zgrssd -> RE: Advice on tech 3 start - early city conquest or not? (1/28/2022 4:34:38 PM)

Let's see:
1. Cities do not cause danger. But hostiles nearby and combat do cause danger. And they propably encroached on you.
Only solution is to drive the enemy back, hard and quickly. You can not delay. But if you got high Heart, Danger impact is lessened.
It is a very bad start sitation.

2. I would need to know how you attacked that city. The factors to consider are:
* attack from as many direcitons as possible. "Concentric Attack" is a huge bonus early game. Or if you have to disloge infantry in hard terrain without tanks.
* only do so with troops under a single OHQ. Once you mix formations or include the OHQ itself, the concentric attack bonus is halved. So attach any indipendantly raised units befoer you attack
* you had time to prepare. The range for danger is like 2-4 hexes from the city. 5-6 should be perfectly save distance to enemy troops.
* sometimes it is best to copy from the mongols and leave one escape direction open. While fully surrounded, the enemy can not orderly retreat and has double morale for a panic retreat. Meaning they fight basically to eath. In turn any defeated unit surrender, but that hardly helps if you can not defeat them in the first place.
Usually you want a full kill. But Minors militia despawns the turn after they loose their last city. Just driving them out would be enough to defeat the faction and the forces here.



zgrssd -> RE: Advice on tech 3 start - early city conquest or not? (1/28/2022 4:35:13 PM)

[tripple post]



zgrssd -> RE: Advice on tech 3 start - early city conquest or not? (1/28/2022 4:35:53 PM)

[tripple post]



TinyFrog -> RE: Advice on tech 3 start - early city conquest or not? (1/28/2022 7:28:43 PM)

Only solution is to drive the enemy back, hard and quickly. You can not delay. - I did not delay at all. Moving troops took 2-3 turns, then waiting for readiness took 1 turn.

attack from as many direcitons as possible. - I encircled their city with all my troops.

only do so with troops under a single OHQ. Once you mix formations or include the OHQ itself, the concentric attack bonus is halved. - thank you, but I had lots militia attacking because in addition to my militia, I was also offered two rebel militia troops with the quest to attack.

I started a new game and this time there were no ruins, roads nor hex-assets within infantry range. My economy started going below 0 money on turn 5 - even I raised income tax on turn 2 and later lowered some wages. The last two turns I think the game auto-sold something or paid for it in new unrest in the start city - because I had no money to pay for the last turns. I seem not to understand the simplest game economics and I'm going to shelf the game. Thanks for trying though. :)



Maerchen -> RE: Advice on tech 3 start - early city conquest or not? (1/29/2022 1:15:24 AM)

I suggest not giving up. The game is challenging, yes, I agree. I dumped a fair amount of good starts after something went south myself.

Tiny_frog, do you stream? I'd be happy to help and counsel if wanted.



TinyFrog -> RE: Advice on tech 3 start - early city conquest or not? (1/29/2022 4:15:20 PM)

Thanks Marchen for supportive words. I want a break first.

I had hoped that Distant Worlds 2 would be the thing to bite deep into - but I'm also a realist and know the game might need a year or two to be bug corrected and balanced. For now I went back to reading Stoicism philosophy, that always gives me perspective on life.

If I stream? No, it's more likely you will see my corpse streaming something. ;) Sorry for being rude, I appreciate your question much. I know I'm stubborn old-fashioned when not streaming - but I'm a rather private person. I take comfort that Marcus Aurelius said:
"Forget how you look to others. Be content to live the rest of your life as decided by nature.”



darwin1776 -> RE: Advice on tech 3 start - early city conquest or not? (1/29/2022 7:23:04 PM)

Not that is what I love about this forum. Folks are always willing to help.



Elver -> RE: Advice on tech 3 start - early city conquest or not? (1/30/2022 3:19:49 AM)

As a general point of reference, your out-of-the-box troops on tech 3 - especially if they don't have/need envirosuits - are significantly worse than minor troops. Either raising some artillery, upgrading to slightly-less-awful infantry, playing some Sentinel stratagems, or luring out and cutting off some of the city's defenders are your best bet, because taking a city early in tech 3 is an ugly affair.



TinyFrog -> RE: Advice on tech 3 start - early city conquest or not? (1/30/2022 3:34:58 PM)

Thank you Elver for the best explanation and excellent advice. If I'd known that I might not have been so frustrated. :)



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